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Missing the point. God can do the impossible, but only God can do the impossible.ok so lets get this straight.
God cant do the impossible "like make a square circle"
So god cant make something from nothing since that impossible.
Or if it is possible then god isnt needed.
Than how can you conclude for it? It seems, to me, a cop-out. There's nothing stopping, but there's nothing to cause, but hey! Logic doesn't apply so I'm wrong.That would still imply that there is a law that "it can´t happen without the presence of those laws". And these don´t exist.
Yes, I understand why you don´t see any logic in that... there is no logic. It violates logic.
So what?
Yes, admittedly I don't think He would violate the laws of this universe in such an instance.Like the "God is everything, but there is something that is not God" example. We understand that... you yourself said: "The definition of everything, is, of course, the broadest of all, but it is not badly defined."
So here is something that violates logic. It contradicts its own definition. And you agreed that God can do that.
Mine was cooler.That´s what I said: "Logic is a form of reasoning that enables you to make correct conclusions from correct premises.". It seems we agree.
How so?Maybe it is your understanding then that is to blame? That you made a statement without having really thought what the consequences are?
I go often on the assumption God will not violate the rules of the universe He himself set in place, so I could make a true/false statement with that premise.The initial "yes" is all that is needed. See, it is logic that tells us the limits of concepts.
You made a statement now: "God is not everything". There are logical consequences from this statement. For example, one consequece would be that you know that the statement "God is everything" is wrong.
But if these logical consequences can be violated, the limits of this concept are violated as well. You cannot make a "true" or "false" statement any more.
In a logical argument, you can make a statement based on physical reasons. That's what we mean when we say truth: that which has basis in reality.No, physical is not logical. Physical is based on physical circumstances. Logical is based on the meaning of concepts.
Perhaps you are falling for the common misunderstanding between "logical" and "reasonable"?
I would have to make a couple points here. As I stated earlier, God is completely outside our existence, but through our existence we can get a rudimentary intellectual knowledge of Him. There are some aspects we can't understand, at least not from this perspective. And God created the laws of this universe, so while He is above them, He is not completely seperate from them, and made them so we could know Him. I also believe when God operates He operates within the bounds of this universes' laws, at least on a macro scale.So what? We are not talking about humans or ants here... we are talking about the supernatural, either "God" or "Chaos".
It is enough that "God" can do it to show the consequences.
Yes.Is it logical that "potential" is not "actual"?
It is?Necessarily is a term of logic. Logic that does not apply.
No, it is evidence that your God-concept is based on human imagination. God is everything that humans can imagine, and as soon as this imagination is shown to have some unwanted side-effects, the concept is changed.
It is not a cop-out. It is the full picture. It is a complete presentation of what happens when you disregard logic.Than how can you conclude for it? It seems, to me, a cop-out. There's nothing stopping, but there's nothing to cause, but hey! Logic doesn't apply so I'm wrong.
I have shown all the examples you brought in answer to my question as to what God does that violates logic as lacking. You could not think of some example where God would really do that what you claimed he can. The counterexamples I brought on you almost ignored and always tried to relativate with "Yes, he can, but he doesn´t."How so?
I don´t want to sound harsh... but in the light of the first sentence of your quoted post perhaps you can how this could be seen as a cop-out.Yes, admittedly I don't think He would violate the laws of this universe in such an instance.
I go often on the assumption God will not violate the rules of the universe He himself set in place, so I could make a true/false statement with that premise.
Faith, not logic again. This might be fine for Christians, but does not convince an unbeliever.I would have to make a couple points here. As I stated earlier, God is completely outside our existence, but through our existence we can get a rudimentary intellectual knowledge of Him. There are some aspects we can't understand, at least not from this perspective. And God created the laws of this universe, so while He is above them, He is not completely seperate from them, and made them so we could know Him. I also believe when God operates He operates within the bounds of this universes' laws, at least on a macro scale.
The same logic that God can violate, but does not because it would invalidate your argument?Yes.
I know that this is an extremely difficult concept, but I think that you are approaching it from the wrong side.My question is, though, where do you say stop? It seems to me logic only doesn't apply when its use appears to contradict chaos. And so far you have only given explanations of nothing for chaos, but it is not enough to demonstrate it may be possible, but you have to demonstrate why.
1) God existed first
2) God knew everything that would ever happen throughout time
3) God created us
4) Therefore God created us to do everything that would ever happen **
5) Therefore God created us to sin and then spend eternity suffering in Hell when we did not repent
6) Therefore God is evil
7) God does not exist
** Since God knew everything that will ever happen, he knew whether I would pick an apple or a banana from the fruit bowl today, therefore he must have created me to do just that
And who said something can't come from nothing?
http://universe-review.ca/R03-01-quantumflu.htm
I have to disagree.The proof of God's existence are in the laws of science. If there was no God we could not be here because the Big Bang could not have been a random occurance. This is why theistic evolution (not intelligent design) is the most likely reason for existence.
The proof of God's existence are in the laws of science. If there was no God we could not be here because the Big Bang could not have been a random occurance. This is why theistic evolution (not intelligent design) is the most likely reason for existence.
Peter Kreeft is Catholic, and known to me. He believe God created world, so it not impossible for all powerful God to create world, just impossible to defy logic. Logic, say Kreeft, demand that something start everything: unmove mover- God. No infinite regress. Right?
Now, something cannot come from nothing because nothing is absolute lack - lack of any actuality or potentiality. That which has no potential to exist will not, ever, exist. Thus nothing can only beget nothing.
God is something. He is omnipotent. There was no prior substance to His creation, "nothing," that we have now, but not absolute nothing as in the example above.
Due to God's omnipotence, He can do anything - "logically" possible or not
- and thus while God exists, everything is in the realm of potentiality.
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