Something About Mary

[ShirChadash]

KennySe, I apologize if you are feeling offended... however I stand by my comments thus far. While the Catholic church tries very hard (as do many individual Catholics) to declare that Mary is not seen in any divine manner, nor worshiped, the prayers of the church speak for themselves. As an example of where people get the idea of "divinity" being ascribed to Mary in the RCC, I offer an argument I made last summer in a completely different discussion elsewhere. The words of the prayer I'm addressing (the "Hail Holy Queen") I have put in CAPS and BOLD, and my responses I have in (regular type).

HAIL HOLY QUEEN,
MOTHER OF MERCY
(I can accept this term if it applies to Mary being the mother of Jesus, as if the term "Mercy" is a name for Jesus Himself, but not if it is meant to say that Mary is the dispenser of mercy to sinners)
OUR LIFE, OUR SWEETNESS AND OUR HOPE...
(my life is in Jesus, as is my hope, and it is His name that is sweet upon my lips)
TO YOU DO WE CRY, POOR BANISHED CHILDREN OF EVE
(crying out to Mary, when the only recourse for those banished from the presence of God is Jesus, His atoning death and resurrection)
TO YOU DO WE SEND UP OUR SIGHS,
MOURNING AND WEEPING IN THIS VALE (valley) OF TEARS
(comfort comes not from Mary, but from the Holy Spirit -- the Spirit of God -- which bears witness to Jesus)
TURN THEN, O MOST GRACIOUS ADVOCATE
(Jesus stands ever before the Father as our advocate, not Mary)
THINE EYES OF MERCY TOWARD US
(Jesus is merciful, not Mary -- mercy means not giving the just reward that is due -- see this link: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mercy )
AND AFTER THIS, OUR EXILE,
SHOW UNTO US THE BLESSED FRUIT OF THY WOMB, JESUS. (it is not Mary who reveals Jesus to us, but again, the Holy Spirit -- the Spirit of God)

often added to the end of this prayer is this:
O CLEMENT, O LOVING, O SWEET VIRGIN MARY...
(again, clemency means Inclined to be lenient or merciful. Mary hasn't the power to be lenient or merciful, and we do not sin against Mary, but against God Himself. It is Jesus who is capable of being lenient and merciful to the sinner, and to Whom that authority is given.)

I could go on, but again I feel I am getting too far OT.

There has been a push for the last several years in the RCC for Mary to be declared a CoRedemptrix (co-, meaning, with but not necessarily equal to)... declaring that without her participation no man can be saved (and even indicating that without her agreement to carry the Savior, that we would not HAVE a Savior, as though God's plan could be thwarted...?) Also, as has been stated before in this thread, I believe, only one man has ever lived a sinless life -- Yeshua -- yet Mary is believed and taught to have been conceived without stain of sin herself, in her mother's womb (the doctrine of her Immaculate Conception). More of the idea of Mary as being painted in some very "divine" ways by the church can be found in others of the church's doctrines of her. See here:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/mary_cor.htm

 

[iitb]

I would just like to remind everyone that Catholic doctrine isn't up for debate here; Catholics can't debate here, and it's quite unfair to discuss their beliefs when they can't defend themselves. The question is "how does everyone feel about Mary?" Let's please get back to that.

Justin Hulsey
Moderator

 

[ShirChadash]

I'll edit if you like Justin. I just think that, no one was meaning to offend, and it is reasonable to point out why (and where) some people might get the idea that Mary is treated as divine in the Catholic church, and be operating on that assumption. It seems to me that a lot of people come in here all too often, to "set the messy's straight" on any number of things, because we "don't get it" or don't have it right (whatever "it" is). I was merely trying to show why some people would understand the church to be treating Mary as divine... it IS a reasonable conclusion, and people are not automatically ill-informed to believe so. (And I was trying to say so in a very respectful manner, at least that was my intention).

 

[iitb]

Everything is okay right now, I'm just trying to keep things on track and fair to all involved.

 

[Shekinah]

C. The Genealogy of Christ. 3:23–38.

23. About thirty years of age. At the time Jesus began His public ministry He was thirty years old, as were the Levitical priests when they began their service (Num 4:47). Being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph. Luke is careful to explain Christ’s unique parentage in light of His virgin birth. Jesus had no earthly father.
24–38. This genealogy differs from that in Matthew 1 in several ways. Matthew traces the line of descent beginning with Abraham and through the line of kings who directly followed David. This line alone could claim the Davidic throne. Luke, however, apparently gives Mary’s blood-line, working backward from her father Heli, who would be Joseph’s father by marriage. Mary is also seen to be a descendant of King David, but her line is followed all the way back to Adam. This firmly shows Christ to be completely human, yet a true descendant of David. Jesus’ genealogy through Mary avoided the curse placed on David’s kingly line following Zeconiah (Jer 22:30), yet allowed Him to claim the throne legitimately as a true human descendant of David, and as the adopted heir of the kingly line of Joseph.
Jerry Falwell, executive editor; Edward E. Hinson and Michael Kroll Woodrow, general editors, KJV Bible commentary [computer file], electronic ed., Logos Library System, (Nashville: Thomas Nelson) 1997, c1994.

Romans 1:3 says that Yeshua is descended from David physically, therefore Miriam had to also be of the line of David.

Someone here has stated that Miriam was the sister of Elisheva, who was from a Levitical family. I have not been able to find a passage in Scripture to support that. The Bible says that Mary was a relative of Elisheva's, not a sister.

And there is also the very first passage in the Bible with messianic overtones, Genesis 3:15, which talks about the "seed of the woman." To me, that means that Yeshua must be reckoned by His mother's bloodline, not His earthly father, Yosef's.

Comments?

Blessings.
Wanda

 

[P_G]

Everything is okay right now, I'm just trying to keep things on track and fair to all involved.

Commendations to Justin heis right this could get
hot faster than quick!

PG

 

[Hix]

Luke never mentions that it is Marys geneology, her name doesnt appear in it at all! And Mary’s genealogy is entirely irrelevant to Yeshua's lineage from King David. Mary’s genealogy is therefore not traced anywhere in the New Testament. Nowhere in Luke, or in the entire Brit Hadasha for that matter, does it state that Mary was from the House of David. On the contrary, Luke 1:27 insists that it is Joseph who was from the House of David, not Mary. In fact, Luke claims that Mary was the cousin of Elizabeth, who he says was a descendant of Aaron the high priest. This means that Mary must have been in the tribe of Levi.

All Im saying is that Marys geneology doesnt affect anything anyway, becuase it is through the MALE that the bloodline of David was transmitted and Yosef the messiahs father was indeed from the line of David. And there you have it, Romans is right, Yeshua is physically from the line of David.

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

 

[Shekinah]

Hix--

If you look at the two geneaologies (Matthew and Luke, respectively), they appear to be totally different. If they are both Joseph's genealogies, how do you explain the difference?

Also, I have heard rabbis argue, based on Jeremiah 22:28-30, that this passage alone would disqualify Yeshua from being the Messiah, because this passage explicitly states that no descendant of Coniah will sit on the throne of David and/or rule in Judah.

Is this man Coniah
A wretched broken pot,
A vessel no one wants?
Why are he and his offspring hurled out,
And cast away in a land they knew not?
O land, land, land,
Hear the word of the LORD!
Thus said the LORD:
Record this man as without succession,
One who shall never be found acceptable;
For no man of his offspring shall be accepted
To sit on the throne of David
And to rule again in Judah. (Jeremiah 22:28-30 JPS Tanakh)

Coniah is found in the Matthew genealogy but not the Luke one. To my mind, Coniah being in the Matthew one, which is Yosef's genealogy, would disqualify Yeshua as Messiah, therefore I don't believe it can be "counted." Do you see what I am saying?

I hope I am coming across relatively clearly. I'm in a rush today, so don't have time to dig into all my resources on this. I'm just kind of "winging it."

Blessings.
Wanda

 

[Christy4Christ]

I said this :

**note** actually I shouldn't say Protestants because Luther and Calvin both believed in her divinty and were both devoted to her. I am not quite sure who actually started taking issue with the adoration of her.

That was not the right word. I certainly didn't mean for everyone to start fighting over this I asked a couple of simple questions and this looks like it has turned into a bigger deal than it had to be. Thank goodness one of the definitions of devine is Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: or I would have really made myself look bad by using that word! Anyway I am human and sometimes we do make mistakes and use a wrong word when tryng to be descriptive. I have never heard anyone else say Mary was divine, that was my own misused word.

 

[Christy4Christ]

All Im saying is that Marys geneology doesnt affect anything anyway, becuase it is through the MALE that the bloodline of David was transmitted and Yosef the messiahs father was indeed from the line of David. And there you have it, Romans is right, Yeshua is physically from the line of David.

Joseph wasn't Jesus' father and Jesus recieved no blood from Joseph.

 

[FisherofMan]

I don't know whether this has been said yet, I didn't read the entire topic. Byt in the Law it says not to pray to to the dead....hint hint, they pray to Mary and a host of other saints. Also I don't think she was holy, just blessed. SHe was just as "holy" as Jacob or any other Friend of God. And I think she more than likely did have sexual relations with Joseph.

Well that's my 2 cents. Bye

 

[mylene]

Hello, everyone.

I am not here to debate, but to share two very important points.

1) The Catholic Church does not teach, nor never has, that Mary is divine.
(Repeat this aloud, please, so that your ears may actually hear it.)

2) To say that the Bible does not present evidence that Mary was Ever-Virgin, is to call the Biblical scholar Jerome an idiot (Read online "Against Helvidius"); and is to call other Early Church Fathers dopes.

Again, I am not here to debate the issue of Mary's Virginity.
I have presented the truth of the Catholic Church, and the implication if one believes that the Bible does not support Mary as Ever-Virgin.

You may believe what you wish and I will not debate you.

Of course it is easy to say the Catholic Church does not teach any thing
about Mary being divine.

The weakness of people regarding temptation should be considered by Catholic leaders. They should ensure that Mary is not treated in such a manner that can deceive people into thinking she is Divine.

The point is nothing must be said about her that is not said about the likes of Rachel, Elizabeth etc..period. We all know who she is.

Keep is simple..

Then people including Catholics would avoid falling into temptation regarding making errors about her.

By the way, how do the statements that people make about Mary, influence and deceive people into thinking she is divine.?

I hear stories about how she went into Heaven in some Asssumption method
and I hear stories about how Mary sends messages from Heaven to earth with angelic appearances. This entraps many into thinking too much about her and that tempts into errors.

.

 

[Christy4Christ]

According to the Merriam-Webster dictionary, this is the meaning of the word blessed...
Is there a scripture which says "Blessed are you among women"? Maybe this is where the idea of Mary being worshipped came from?

Main Entry: bless·ed
Variant(s): also blest /'blest/
Function: adjective
1 a : held in reverence : VENERATED honored in worship : HALLOWED <the blessed Trinity> c : BEATIFIC <a blessed visitation>
2 : of or enjoying happiness; specifically : enjoying the bliss of heaven -- used as a title for a beatified person
3 : bringing pleasure, contentment, or good fortune
4 -- used as an intensive <no one gave us a blessed penny -- Saturday Review>
- bless·ed·ly adverb
- bless·ed·ness noun

 

[iitb]

I asked that this thread not become a debate over Catholic doctrine. Sadly, my request was ignored. As a result, this thread is closed.