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We don't speculate. We ask those who knew Paul personally, such as Clement and Ignatius, both of whom were contemporaries of the Apostles. We ask those ordained by them, and who came in succession from them.
It isn't speculation. It is observation.
It is belief that God would preserve an unchanged Church in every generation.
So does RC. It's pure speculation about what they taught and wrote over the centuries departed from apostles. Your Tradition doesn't stop at 100ad. Popism at its best; the very accusation you make of everyone else.
We don't accept those things because we like the speculation, you know. That's what Tradition does--picks out the particular opinions that the church leaders like, from among dozens of contrary opinions.It's pure speculation? Then why do you accept the pure speculation of the canon? Or the pure speculation of the Trinity? Or the pure speculation of the identity of the gospel writers? I mean, all three of those aren't written down until well after the Apostles died.
HmmmmIt's pure speculation? Then why do you accept the pure speculation of the canon? Or the pure speculation of the Trinity? Or the pure speculation of the identity of the gospel writers? I mean, all three of those aren't written down until well after the Apostles died.
It isn't speculation, it is expectation that God created a Church which was orderly and authoritative. It is belief that God created a Church that was and remained permanently stronger than the power of hell, in fulfillment of the prophecy of Christ Himself. I would rather believe that God has truly fulfilled this in every generation:
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
There is one Body. That is not speculation. That is fact. Don't like it, take it up with God. It isn't I or the Orthodox of today who said it. It is God.
There is only one church.
And it seems to be divided.
Not according to Scripture.
Paul was already scolding about division to the church at corinth.
I hear that when you come together as a church,
there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.
He did!
And nothing's new under the sun is it?
1 Corinthians 3:3
You are still worldly.
For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you,
are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?
You're free to believe whatever you like, but when Paul calls them ALL
brothers and then scolds them for NOT being of one mind, well I gotta
believe that he was telling the truth.
1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you,
but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.
He's speaking TO the church
He's begging them to be united in mind and thought.
Why's he scolding them?
Because there are divisions.
I can understand why the others unsubscribe.
No one is buying this story you're selling.
My sect is better, my sect is THE sect to beat all sects.
There's only ONE sect and mine's IT.
And MY division isn't as bad as your division.
And tbh, that's a sad message to cling to.
I encourage you to preach unity.
Hmmmm
Who's denying that there's one church?
Nada.
So this here rant would be called a strawman.
But you make some good points in it anyhow.
Why not enjoy the writings of the ancients
without insisting others do and just accept
other christians for WHO they know (Children
of the most High God) rather than WHAT they
know?
We don't accept those things because we like the speculation, you know. That's what Tradition does--picks out the particular opinions that the church leaders like, from among dozens of contrary opinions.
There are many hundreds of them, yes.
You aren't led at all. That is my point. We who do not have a Pope, have the Word of God. But you, who also do not have a Pope, really need one to decide which devout opinion, legend, or piece of folklore is to be interpreted which way.
Well, you're the one who thought it so cute to make that claim. I just pointed out that if we don't have one, you don't either.
That fact makes a strange basis for belittling reformed Christianity, if you only knew.
Actually, they do. Unfortunately, members of the unreformed churches are taught that they don't adhere to it. But that is just propaganda IMO. My advice always is to try to rise above it.
2 Timothy 3:15-17: "For from thy infancy thou hast known the Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting, for instruction in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work."
1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Matthew 4:1-11 note that Jesus always says 'it is written" not "I say" or "tradition teaches". As a matter of fact, the teaching of anything other than sola scriptura would be hard to prove.
No. And this proves a fundamental ignorance of the doctrine of sola scriptura.
Hey, way to cherry pick the tired, out of context, stand by from James.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
(Most of Romans reads like this)
nope.No.
Tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven.
NopeTradition says Jesus is sacrificed again and again in the mass.
nopeTradition says Mary was sinless.
nope. From the Council of Chalcedon, which was approved by the Pope of that time:Tradition says the pope is the head of the church.
Finally something. But Scripture is kinda completely quiet on infant Baptism. An infant received grace through the circumcision in the Old Testament, being allowed from then on to take part in the worship of the Jews. The same happens in Baptism.Tradition says infant baptism imparts grace.
My priest is married, has two children and four grandchildren. In fact, most priests in Orthodoxy are married.Tradition says priests must remain unmarried.
The scriptures do not say any of this. Sola scriptura means the scriptures are the last word (no pun intended) on doctrine and practice. I think in the end, all that's been highlighted is your lack of understanding when it comes to sola scriptura.
We are led, by the many Bishops we have, in concert with eachother. Not against each other.
Look, that is such a ridiculous notion, that it's not worth rebutting it once again.Next, it is accurate that a Protestant is his own pope.
With certain matters, that's probably so; but it's no less the case in the Catholic churches, so you really have no issue here.As a Protestant, a person can pick and choose what he wants to believe is true.
But when you look at the other Catholic churches, it certain is true. You took all the Protestants and looked at them as if there were supposed to be some homogenous body and then pointed to alleged inconsistencies, but when it comes to the other side of the ledger, you don't want us to take account of the Catholic churches in the same way. Oh no, then you want the Orthodox to be assessed separately from the other Catholic churches. Well, if you want to do that, I insist that you make a fair comparison between your church and some particular Protestant church such as the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. What diversity of opinion exists in that body?In Orthodoxy, you don't have that option with doctrine.
In theory, but in practice the backstabbing and rivalries between bishops over getting and holding power are well known.
Look, that is such a ridiculous notion, that it's not worth rebutting it once again.
With certain matters, that's probably so; but it's no less the case in the Catholic churches, so you really have no issue here.
But when you look at the other Catholic churches, it certain is true. You took all the Protestants and looked at them as if there were supposed to be some homogenous body and then pointed to alleged inconsistencies, but when it comes to the other side of the ledger, you don't want us to take account of the Catholic churches in the same way. Oh no, then you want the Orthodox to be assessed separately from the other Catholic churches. Well, if you want to do that, I insist that you make a fair comparison between your church and some particular Protestant church such as the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. What diversity of opinion exists in that body?
And yet, despite personal issues which EVERY human has, the Orthodox Church hasn't changed its dogmatic teachings. You, yourself, come from a split-off of a split-off from the original Anglicanism.
That would only matter if you imposed it upon yourself. There are many Catholics who have technically excommunicated themselves but go ahead communing, etc. as though nothing has changed.I don't actually have that freedom as an Orthodox. I would be excommunicating myself by doing so.
And we say that same thing. You ridicule us for speaking of the invisible church, but that's the same concept.I also made the assertion that there is only one Body. Not many.
We don't cense statues, normally. We cense the altar, we cense the Gospel, we cense the people. We cense entire churches. In fact, in Santiago de Compostela, Spain, there's a censor that a human could comfortably sit in (if it wasn't full of charcoal) that they swing through the main aisle of the church.I'm a bit confused about why you don't know the answer to this.
I thought your church had the fullness of truth.
Was that some other group I"m thinking of?
Actually, the ones that resemble my avatar are the ones that most resemble Jesus...for example...If you wet a computer print off the ink runs, though most cement figures got that clear coat on them so you get them really wet (lots of lips) and the paint remain in tact.
Though all the Jesus's all look different I wouldnt know which one was which because they dont all look alike.
Did you see the picture on the one thread in GT? That one looks exactly like Sly Stallone, around the lips and the eye area. I posted pictures besides that one, the ressemblance is uncanny.
-snip-
I also made the assertion that there is only one Body. Not many. I didn't say that all other Catholics are part of that Body. If you wish to debate with my stance, please debate with it. Don't create a bill of goods and try to sell it to me.
Curious to see what he says about this.Sculleywr is probably the easiest to talk to here, if we simply hear him. He's really quite clear that his denomination is The One True Church and all others are not part of the Body of Christ.
So, none of these passages speaks of the written word exclusively...Jesus Himself, if writing was so crucial, never said "Write this down". And when he says "It is written", he was talking about OT.2 Timothy 3:15-17: "For from thy infancy thou hast known the Sacred Writings, which are able to instruct thee unto salvation by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for reproving, for correcting, for instruction in justice, that the man of God may be perfect, equipped for every good work."
1 Corinthians 4:6
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
Acts 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Matthew 4:1-11 note that Jesus always says 'it is written" not "I say" or "tradition teaches". As a matter of fact, the teaching of anything other than sola scriptura would be hard to prove.
No. And this proves a fundamental ignorance of the doctrine of sola scriptura.
You have two different types of tradion mentioned here, and several misconcepitons. First the misconceptions: Jesus is not sacrificed again and again. (T)radition says Mary was assumed and sinless, that Matt 16:18 and other places put Peter and his successors as head of the Church on earth, and that baptism, whether infant or adult (because Scripture never specifies), imparts Grace. The others are (t)radition.Hey, way to cherry pick the tired, out of context, stand by from James.
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
(Most of Romans reads like this)
No.
Tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven.
Tradition says Jesus is sacrificed again and again in the mass.
Tradition says Mary was sinless.
Tradition says the pope is the head of the church.
Tradition says infant baptism imparts grace.
Tradition says priests must remain unmarried.
Tradition says...etc, etc, etc....ad infinitum.
So where, in Scripture, are altar calls, and passing the collection basket while a hymn is sung after the sermon?The scriptures do not say any of this. Sola scriptura means the scriptures are the last word (no pun intended) on doctrine and practice. I think in the end, all that's been highlighted is your lack of understanding when it comes to sola scriptura.
I'm with you. I had hoped that this thread would contain different material, but it seems there is nothing new under the sun. Also unsubscribing
There are many hundreds of them, yes.
You aren't led at all. That is my point. We who do not have a Pope, have the Word of God. But you, who also do not have a Pope, really need one to decide which devout opinion, legend, or piece of folklore is to be interpreted which way.
Well, you're the one who thought it so cute to make that claim. I just pointed out that if we don't have one, you don't either.
That fact makes a strange basis for belittling reformed Christianity, if you only knew.
Actually, they do. Unfortunately, members of the unreformed churches are taught that they don't adhere to it. But that is just propaganda IMO. My advice always is to try to rise above it.
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