Something About Mary

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2013

Stryder06 said:
Again, it seems an unnecessary step. Many Catholics reply "Do you not ask others to pray for you?" and the answer to that is yes. What I don't do however is ask anyone to protect me, or give me grace. If asking Mary for grace and protection is ok, why not ask your priest for the same thing? Or your fellow Chistian?

When you die you're...ya know...dead

No consciousness. No immortal spirit/soul that ascends to heaven or descends to hell. The grave is a bed that you sleep in until the Lord wakes you up.

So how was this "rich man" in Luke 16 able to talk with Abraham when he died and was buried?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham's bosom

LUKE 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried."
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."

The next events recorded in this parable are the deaths of Lazarus and then the rich man. Since the parable has been figurative up until this point, there is no reason to assume it becomes literal now.

First, to prove that this language is symbolic and not meant to be taken literally, let's examine exactly what we are told by Yeshua. He says that first, Lazarus dies and is taken to the bosom of Abraham. [Notice, there is no mention of his burial here.]
Then later the rich man dies, and he is buried (in Hades, according to verse 23). So the time sequence given indicates that upon his death, Lazarus was taken immediately to Abraham's bosom, while afterward the rich man was buried in Hades when he died.

If this story is literal, then we have a contradiction in the Bible. Here, Lazarus is shown to have immediately received the promise of eternal life. Yet the author of Hebrews clearly tells us that Abraham, as well as all the other Old Testament saints, have not yet received the promises given to them by God:

.

sunlover1 · Apr 30, 2013

Defensor Christi said:
Even more clearly stated here...

A bad choice of words
When the time came for that gesture at this particular wedding, the priest tried to explain. He said that the placing of the flowers is done because "we Catholics worship Mary." There was a collective sigh from the few Catholics in the church and a collective gasp from the non-Catholics, who felt their worst suspicions confirmed.
Was the priest right or wrong? Well, both. He was right, given his understanding of the word "worship," though he was using it an almost archaic sense. He was surely wrong in using it in front of people who would misunderstand his meaning.
In common speech "worship" means the adoration given to God alone. In this sense Catholics don't worship Mary or any of the other saints. In fact, the Catholic Church forbids any adoration to be given to any one or any thing but God. But in an older use of the term "worship" could cover not just the adoration of God but also the honor given to anyone deserving of honor.
Begin with the word itself. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
But there are different kinds of worship, just as there are different kinds of honor. The highest honor, and thus the highest worship, is given to God alone, while the honor or worship given to living men or to saints in heaven is of a different sort. Idolatry thus does not simply mean giving worship (in the old sense) to living men or to saints; it means giving them the kind reserved for God.
Nowadays, there is a problem using the word "worship" because in the popular mind it refers to the worship of God alone. For practical purposes it has come to mean nothing else than adoration. Although it was commonly used in the wider sense as recently as the nineteenth century (when, for instance, Orestes Brownson, an American Catholic writer, produced a book called The Worship of Mary), it is usually too confusing to use it that way now, as the example of the priest shows. It is wise to restrict its use to God and to use for saints and others terms like honor and veneration.
Is this distinction without a difference? It would be if the worship given to God were the same as the honor given to a saint. But it isn't.
The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. Its appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.
For example, in Genesis 37:7-9 Joseph relates two dreams which God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "'ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshipped [shakah] my sheaf.' . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, 'Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshipping [shakah] me.'"
In Genesis 49:8, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall worship [shakah] you." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshipped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."
Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration--the kind of worship given to God.

Saint Worship?

Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own,

keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.

Greeting Mary
Hail Mary, hello, how are you?
I greet you with love,
And I thank you for being available.
Deeply, I breathe your roses,
The twelve fresh roses you place in my spirit
Every morning when I say hello to you.

Full of grace are you,
Grace spilling over Heaven's boundaries
Into my world, living water, bread and wine,
The unmerited favor of God
That you come carrying to me,
Your arms always full of gifts.

The Lord is with thee,
Jesus Christ the Messiah is with you,
And you teach me how to recognize
That the Lord is with me.

Blessed art thou amoung women,
Glowing with love for Jesus,
Pure blessedness never tainted
But alive with holy beauty.

And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,
The most blessed of humanity,
Delivered through you, Virgin Mary.
Jesus, the most cursed of humanity,
Who became a curse for me
So that I might be blessed
With his resurrection life.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Teach me to value motherhood,
Help me pray for mothers and fathers
To love and support each other.
Show me how God loves you.

Pray for us sinners now
And at the hour of our death.
Pray that I can live each moment
Consecrated to love, to Christ,
That I recognize each now
As the moment of salvation
So that I die prepared for eternal life.
Pray that I can crucify my passions,
Those passions that make me a sinner,
And that I can die to sin on the cross with Jesus
As you look on weeping and praying
But joyous, knowing that resurrection follows.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2013

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

Thanks, sis.

And you're right. These threads work just like the church. Jewels of grace nestled in noise and bluster.

motherprayer said:
I kind of look at it like this - when we create a thread, there may be mumbling here, strife over there, and an elephant somewhere in the room, but mixed in with all of that there IS something beautiful.

It is the love that goes out and doesn't need to come back to be satisfying to the giver. When we offer that kind of love, God rejoices in it, and people learn. They may not tell about their learning, but they DO learn!

Well said!

.

SolomonVII · Apr 30, 2013

Defensor Christi said:
Even more clearly stated here...

A bad choice of words
When the time came for that gesture at this particular wedding, the priest tried to explain. He said that the placing of the flowers is done because "we Catholics worship Mary." There was a collective sigh from the few Catholics in the church and a collective gasp from the non-Catholics, who felt their worst suspicions confirmed.
Was the priest right or wrong? Well, both. He was right, given his understanding of the word "worship," though he was using it an almost archaic sense. He was surely wrong in using it in front of people who would misunderstand his meaning.
In common speech "worship" means the adoration given to God alone. In this sense Catholics don't worship Mary or any of the other saints. In fact, the Catholic Church forbids any adoration to be given to any one or any thing but God. But in an older use of the term "worship" could cover not just the adoration of God but also the honor given to anyone deserving of honor.
Begin with the word itself. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.
But there are different kinds of worship, just as there are different kinds of honor. The highest honor, and thus the highest worship, is given to God alone, while the honor or worship given to living men or to saints in heaven is of a different sort. Idolatry thus does not simply mean giving worship (in the old sense) to living men or to saints; it means giving them the kind reserved for God.
Nowadays, there is a problem using the word "worship" because in the popular mind it refers to the worship of God alone. For practical purposes it has come to mean nothing else than adoration. Although it was commonly used in the wider sense as recently as the nineteenth century (when, for instance, Orestes Brownson, an American Catholic writer, produced a book called The Worship of Mary), it is usually too confusing to use it that way now, as the example of the priest shows. It is wise to restrict its use to God and to use for saints and others terms like honor and veneration.
Is this distinction without a difference? It would be if the worship given to God were the same as the honor given to a saint. But it isn't.
The term "worship" was used in the same way in the Bible that it used to be used in English. It could cover both the adoration given to God alone and the honor that is to be shown to certain human beings. In Hebrew, the term for worship is shakah. Its appropriately used for humans in a large number of passages.
For example, in Genesis 37:7-9 Joseph relates two dreams which God gave him concerning how his family would honor him in coming years. Translated literally the passage states: "'ehold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and lo, my sheaf arose and stood upright; and behold, your sheaves gathered round it, and worshipped [shakah] my sheaf.' . . . Then he dreamed another dream, and told it to his brothers, and said, 'Behold, I have dreamed another dream; and behold, the sun, the moon, and eleven stars were worshipping [shakah] me.'"
In Genesis 49:8, Jacob pronounced a prophetic blessing on his sons, and concerning Judah he stated: "Judah, your brothers shall praise you; your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies; your father's sons shall worship [shakah] you." And in Exodus 18:7, Moses honored his father-in-law, Jethro: "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and worshipped [shakah] him and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare, and went into the tent."
Yet none of these passages were discussing the worship of adoration--the kind of worship given to God.

Saint Worship?

I think the story of Joseph actually was about Joseph getting the kind of worship that is given to God.
The second part of the dream, where the sun and the moon and the eleven stars worship him brings to mind the astonishment paid to Jesus, whom even the winds listens to his voice.
Joseph was the beginning of the four hundred years of slavery in Egypt, where the Hebrews become beholden to the idols of polytheistic Egypt, chief among them the god-king Pharaoh, which is very much the role that Joseph was taking on in Egypt.

From what I recall, even the doting Jacob was very disturbed about the hubris of Joseph's dreaming. He could abide by Joseph lording it over his older brothers from the hated wife Leah, but it was a little too much for even him when even he and his wife were being pulled into the circle of worship.
Joseph's prophecy was a true one, but it was not an entirely 'kosher' one by any stretch of the imagination. When the flesh pots of Egypt became the land of milk and honey for the descendants of Abraham, the kind of worship that they demanded of their slave-subjects came at a terrible price.
Of course, for Christians that is not the end of the story. When Jesus himself rises out of the land of Joseph, and gathers in the lost sheep of Israel to worship, minus the twelfth sheep of Judas and the Jews it might be added, eleven stars indeed did bow down to Joseph, in the person of Jesus.

Defensor Christi · Apr 30, 2013

sunlover1 said:
Morning Consecration to Mary

My Queen, My Mother, I offer
myself entirely to thee.
And to show my devotion to thee,
I offer thee this day, my eyes,
my ears, my mouth, my heart,
my whole being without reserve.
Wherefore, good Mother, as I am thine own,

keep me, guard me as thy property and possession.
Amen.

Greeting Mary
Hail Mary, hello, how are you?
I greet you with love,
And I thank you for being available.
Deeply, I breathe your roses,
The twelve fresh roses you place in my spirit
Every morning when I say hello to you.

Full of grace are you,
Grace spilling over Heaven's boundaries
Into my world, living water, bread and wine,
The unmerited favor of God
That you come carrying to me,
Your arms always full of gifts.

The Lord is with thee,
Jesus Christ the Messiah is with you,
And you teach me how to recognize
That the Lord is with me.

Blessed art thou amoung women,
Glowing with love for Jesus,
Pure blessedness never tainted
But alive with holy beauty.

And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus,
The most blessed of humanity,
Delivered through you, Virgin Mary.
Jesus, the most cursed of humanity,
Who became a curse for me
So that I might be blessed
With his resurrection life.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Teach me to value motherhood,
Help me pray for mothers and fathers
To love and support each other.
Show me how God loves you.

Pray for us sinners now
And at the hour of our death.
Pray that I can live each moment
Consecrated to love, to Christ,
That I recognize each now
As the moment of salvation
So that I die prepared for eternal life.
Pray that I can crucify my passions,
Those passions that make me a sinner,
And that I can die to sin on the cross with Jesus
As you look on weeping and praying
But joyous, knowing that resurrection follows.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women
And blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners
Now and at the hour of our death.

Amen.

!! Do you have a specific issue?

Rev Randy · Apr 30, 2013

Stryder06 said:
That's just the first hurdle. I'd be hard pressed to believe in kissing a stone statues feet, or paying to a painting.

Who prays to paintings? I pray before some and even kiss some but in essence that is not who the kiss is for. But then, I'm a peculiar person.

Defensor Christi · Apr 30, 2013

SolomonVII said:
I think the story of Joseph actually was about Joseph getting the kind of worship that is given to God.
The second part of the dream, where the sun and the moon and the eleven stars worship him brings to mind the astonishment paid to Jesus, whom even the winds listens to his voice.
Joseph was the beginning of the four hundred years of slavery in Egypt, where the Hebrews become beholden to the idols of polytheistic Egypt, chief among them the god-king Pharaoh, which is very much the role that Joseph was taking on in Egypt.

From what I recall, even the doting Joseph was very disturbed about the hubris of Joseph's dreaming. He could abide by Joseph lording it over his older brothers from the hated wife Leah, but it was a little too much for even him when even he and his wife were being pulled into the circle of worship.
Joseph's prophecy was a true one, but it was not an entirely 'kosher' one by any stretch of the imagination. When the flesh pots of Egypt became the land of milk and honey for the descendants of Abraham, the kind of worship that they demanded of their slave-subjects came at a terrible price.
Of course, for Christians that is not the end of the story. When Jesus himself rises out of the land of Joseph, and gathers in the lost sheep of Israel to worship, minus the twelfth sheep of Judas and the Jews it might be added, eleven stars indeed did bow down to Joseph, in the person of Jesus.

That further illustrates my point...the problem with this whole argument is that we try to read things into letters...scripture...prayers that simply arent there, we cannot apply our 21st Century American minds to everything...

Root of Jesse · Apr 30, 2013

simonthezealot said:
Prayer is one of the highest forms of worship, it acknowledges our dependance on a supreme being...You guys pray to Mary and the saints..ergo you worship Mary and the saints.
Worship at any level toward anyone/anything but God, is giving glory to the creation rather than the Creator!

Prayer does not necessarily mean worship. It certainly does in many aspects, but not exclusively.

Pray means "ask". Ergo, we ask Mary to intercede with her son for us.

Just as love has many aspects, so does worship. We know how to separate what we do when we worship God, to what we do when we honor Mary.

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2013

Originally Posted by sunlover1
Morning Consecration to Mary

Defensor Christi said:
!! Do you have a specific issue?

Why do you ask?

.

Root of Jesse · Apr 30, 2013

simonthezealot said:
Deflect is more like it...

Ah, maybe you need to remove the log from your own eye before worrying about the splinter in mine...

Defensor Christi · Apr 30, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Why do you ask?

SL is non-Catholic...I assumed she was posting those prayers to try and demonstrate how we "worship" Mary...I merely wanted to her to point out her specific objections...as I didnt clearly see them...

LittleLambofJesus · Apr 30, 2013

Root of Jesse said:
Ah, maybe you need to remove the log from your own eye before worrying about the splinter in mine...

Click on my little camera icon

.

Stryder06 · Apr 30, 2013

Rev Randy said:
Who prays to paintings? I pray before some and even kiss some but in essence that is not who the kiss is for. But then, I'm a peculiar person.

I get it, the affection is meant for the person it represents. But that still doesn't jive with me. I have pictures of my wife that I look at from time to time. I'd never kiss them. Doesn't compute. Such actions as I've seen border too close to worship, with only a word used to distinguish the two.

Rev Randy · Apr 30, 2013

motherprayer said:
I kind of look at it like this - when we create a thread, there may be mumbling here, strife over there, and an elephant somewhere in the room, but mixed in with all of that there IS something beautiful.

It is the love that goes out and doesn't need to come back to be satisfying to the giver. When we offer that kind of love, God rejoices in it, and people learn. They may not tell about their learning, but they DO learn!

The Rosary is not what many think it is. Before coming to Orthodoxy I was praying the Rosary and specifically asked the Orthodox bishop if It was allowed in Orthodoxy.He assured me it was not forbidden but only after asking me my reason for praying it. I explained while I was a Baptist, that a sister in Christ challenged me to pray it daily for a week. She said that if the Holy Spirit told me to stop it to stop it by all means. She also said that after that week if the devotion had produced no fruit that I should also stop. Along with the challenge she gave me a hand made Rosary and an instructional book.
The book shocked me as I assumed praying the Rosary was all about Mary. I mean I knew the prayers involved included "Our Father" but I had no idea of the part concerning meditating upon certain points in Christ's life on Earth. It's those meditations that cause me to continue.
There are five joyful mysteries, five Luminous mysteries, five sorrowful mysteries and five glorious mysteries that all have everything to do with the history of our salvation. These focus on Christ and keep me very aware of what Christ did for the world.
While I expect no Protestant to devote him/herself to such I do wish they would look into it before condemning it.

motherprayer · Apr 30, 2013

Rev Randy said:
Who prays to paintings? I pray before some and even kiss some but in essence that is not who the kiss is for. But then, I'm a peculiar person.

Actually, the post you quoted said "paying" to paintings. Huh. Gotta meditate on that one for awhile...

motherprayer · Apr 30, 2013

Rev Randy said:
The Rosary is not what many think it is. Before coming to Orthodoxy I was praying the Rosary and specifically asked the Orthodox bishop if It was allowed in Orthodoxy.He assured me it was not forbidden but only after asking me my reason for praying it. I explained while I was a Baptist, that a sister in Christ challenged me to pray it daily for a week. She said that if the Holy Spirit told me to stop it to stop it by all means. She also said that after that week if the devotion had produced no fruit that I should also stop. Along with the challenge she gave me a hand made Rosary and an instructional book.
The book shocked me as I assumed praying the Rosary was all about Mary. I mean I knew the prayers involved included "Our Father" but I had no idea of the part concerning meditating upon certain points in Christ's life on Earth. It's those meditations that cause me to continue.
There are five joyful mysteries, five Luminous mysteries, five sorrowful mysteries and five glorious mysteries that all have everything to do with the history of our salvation. These focus on Christ and keep me very aware of what Christ did for the world.
While I expect no Protestant to devote him/herself to such I do wish they would look into it before condemning it.

I take no issue with the Rosary, my brother It is such a truly beautiful tool!

Defensor Christi · Apr 30, 2013

Stryder06 said:
I get it, the affection is meant for the person it represents. But that still doesn't jive with me. I have pictures of my wife that I look at from time to time. I'd never kiss them. Doesn't compute. Such actions as I've seen border too close to worship, with only a word used to distinguish the two.

Have you been away from your wife for a significant amount of time? I am in the military and have deployed frequently...I have ofen kissed photo's of my wife and kids...no worship there, just unrequited love!!

Rev Randy · Apr 30, 2013

Stryder06 said:
I get it, the affection is meant for the person it represents. But that still doesn't jive with me. I have pictures of my wife that I look at from time to time. I'd never kiss them. Doesn't compute. Such actions as I've seen border too close to worship, with only a word used to distinguish the two.

When my wife is away I do kiss her picture. But then, I'm funny that way. I also kiss my Bible and nearly every Christian I meet in person unless I know they are not comfortable with it. Some see kissing as something purely sexual. That just doesn't jive with me. That would make kissing Grandma a bit strange.
I assure you I do not worship Saints, Mary, statues or icons. But I do understand why some see it that way. It's because many don't really understand what worship is. I love my wife dearly and pay great attention to her. I show her more affection than anyone save Christ. In doing so I worship Christ as what I show to my wife and others I show to Christ. If I show great love and respect for you, Strider, I have shown great love and respect for Christ.
Now will some become confused by my actions? I'm most certain they will. But if they convey that lack of understanding to me I'll simply invite them to walk one day with me and at the end of that day, they'll know who I worship. And, as the bulk of my prayer time is in private, I doubt most would see my prayers in any event.

seeingeyes · Apr 30, 2013

Stryder06 said:
I get it, the affection is meant for the person it represents. But that still doesn't jive with me. I have pictures of my wife that I look at from time to time. I'd never kiss them. Doesn't compute. Such actions as I've seen border too close to worship, with only a word used to distinguish the two.

Rev Randy said:
When my wife is away I do kiss her picture. But then, I'm funny that way. I also kiss my Bible and nearly every Christian I meet in person unless I know they are not comfortable with it. Some see kissing as something purely sexual. That just doesn't jive with me. That would make kissing Grandma a bit strange.

Yep. This was the cultural difference I was highlighting.

I wonder how much of the vitriol on this topic stems from culture rather than 'doctrine'.

sunlover1 · Apr 30, 2013

Defensor Christi said:
SL is non-Catholic...I assumed she was posting those prayers to try and demonstrate how we "worship" Mary...I merely wanted to her to point out her specific objections...as I didnt clearly see them...

Ex roman catholic you mean

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