Someone recently asked/commented

[wayfaring man]

Someone recently asked/commented,( in a thread recently closed, which asked the question, "why should I trust God"), the following -

I'm wondering this question myself. Think about it. Would YOU trust a man who murdered his own son? Of course not!

So why should we trust God? I don't know.

Since the thread closed, and "non-believers", are allowed to ask questions of "believers", in this forum, it seemed fitting for the opportunity to be expanded, by a new thread addressing the question/comment.

I once heard an analogy, which said that God was as a switchman and there was a crowded runaway train, and He had to choose between letting the train go crashing off a cliff, or throw a switch, which would mean killing his son as he was somehow on the tracks which the train would then "fly down", if the switch was thrown...

Though obviously not technically what occurred, in principle, that analogy describes how Christ's death was not so much a "crime of murder", as it was a "death of mercy"...one which Jesus also apparently had to consent to beforehand. ( John 10:17+18 )

So if God would sooner sacrifice His only son, so that we may be spared catastrophe, than save His own and let us all perish, doesn't that speak of a very great love, a love which well warrants our trust, our thanksgiving, and our willingness to love in return ?!!

wm

 

[elenore]

well since his son immediatly returned to his place at the right hand of God after he died, I don't really see it as an issue.

eternal life is kind of like that.


sounds like a pretty poor attempt at a cop out to me.

 

[wayfaring man]

It was surely a horrendous thing to bear. And he did not immediately ascend but was three days and nights in "the heart of the earth", a.k.a "hell".

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. <-----> Matthew 12:40

 

[iambren]

Dad, mom, and son in the kitchen. Son picks up a knife lunging at Ma but the Dad pulls a gun from a drawer and shoots him.

Dad loved them both, chose the bride, the Bride of Christ.

 

[znr]

Resistence Is Futile

- Borg

 

[BFine]

I see every reason to trust God...
Sin abounded-- a perfect sacrifice was needed and our Heavenly Father
sent a "lamb" without spot or blemish...a "lamb" that grew up-- humbled himself and
did exactly what God had asked of him.

God displayed his awesome power by raising his Son to Life!
Christ lives!
God did it for his Son and he will do it for all of us who trust in
Him--Amen!!!

Our sin debt is paid!

Excerpt below from How Many Kings (by Downhere)

How many kings step down from their thrones?
How many lords have abandoned their homes?
How many greats have become the least for me?
And how many gods have poured out their hearts
To romance a world that is torn all apart
How many fathers gave up their sons for me?

*Only One has done that for me!

 

[Ash Crimson]

Someone recently asked/commented,( in a thread recently closed, which asked the question, "why should I trust God"), the following -




Since the thread closed, and "non-believers", are allowed to ask questions of "believers", in this forum, it seemed fitting for the opportunity to be expanded, by a new thread addressing the question/comment.

I once heard an analogy, which said that God was as a switchman and there was a crowded runaway train, and He had to choose between letting the train go crashing off a cliff, or throw a switch, which would mean killing his son as he was somehow on the tracks which the train would then "fly down", if the switch was thrown...

Though obviously not technically what occurred, in principle, that analogy describes how Christ's death was not so much a "crime of murder", as it was a "death of mercy"...one which Jesus also apparently had to consent to beforehand. ( John 10:17+18 )

So if God would sooner sacrifice His only son, so that we may be spared catastrophe, than save His own and let us all perish, doesn't that speak of a very great love, a love which well warrants our trust, our thanksgiving, and our willingness to love in return ?!!

wm

Since it was my quote you're referencing, I thought I would reply. Although I'm not sure who is the non-believer here, since it's not me.

The question was fair. I don't think too many people would be willing to trust someone who murdered their own son, so we can say the same about God too here.

Some people find the cross comforting somehow. I find it terrifying that the one whom God supposedly loved, he did this to:

This was somebody he actually loved, not a filthy sinner like everyone else. Where does that leave everyone else then, if this was what he did to his own son? We don't have a chance!

Romans 8 says about if God did not spare his own son, but delivered him up for us all, how then shall he with him, not freely give us all things?

Well, for starters he doesn't give us "all things", so that is false. Or at least not what Paul meant. And secondly, if he did THAT to the only one he was said to have loved, where does the rest of humanity, sinner or not, wind up? We're in big trouble here.

 

[elenore]

Context is a lovely thing. So is the context of everything in the bible. You know, the whole story.

'All things' that are good for us. Actually he does.

Also - as for him 'loving' his own son. Would you prefer to spend eternity with a God who had never suffered as a human being? Never experienced grief or loss. Never known what it was to be tempted or experience agony and betrayal?

The bible describes christ as 'a man of sorrows'. Not just one who suffered sorrow on the cross.

He was filled with the holy spirit yet he was still a man. He still suffered grief, pain, etc.

We are told to 'follow' christ. It would be pretty hypocritical for God to ask us to 'follow' another God who had never experienced life as we do, yet overcome it.

It would also be pretty hypocritical for us to be that Gods 'bride' so to speak. Companion.

As I said - an attempt at a cheap cop out in my opinion.


Although I must admit, I have to wonder about the 'cross comforting' thing too. I find jesus's sacrifice comforting, the fact that he would do that for us - deliberatly and knowingly.
But I see another side to that that could be based on self-preservation too, that I don't like at all.

As in people seeing it as their get out of jail free card. God doesn't work like that.

 

[wayfaring man]

[In response to post 7]

First of all God didn't actually commit those acts of cruelty and brutality, wicked men with ungodly hearts and minds did those horrible things.

Secondly, Romans 8:32 states that God shall freely give us all things with him.

"Shall", is largely referring to something in the future, not something which has happened already.

And thirdly, it has already been referenced that Jesus "laid down His life", no one "took" it from Him.

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. <-----> John 10:17+18

Jesus let the Devil and those under his control, throw everything at him to try and show that their power of hatred and malignity with brutality was stronger than Christ's meekness and humility...but even with all the mocking and vile mistreatment...Jesus didn't buckle to temptation to lash out in His own defense, but in spite of it all, continued to demonstrate genuine love and compassion - even for those guilty of betraying and abusing Him, saying,
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. <---> From Luke 23:34

And in so doing Christ showed openly that His strength triumphs, even when placed in the most vulnerable situation.

And in His surrender to this horrible death He secured the destruction of Satan and all who follow him...for Jesus' death brought upon Satan his first and only complicity in the destruction of an innocent man. All others with whom Satan played a role in destroying were killed under the strength of the law. But when Jesus endured unto the end without sinning, His integrity sealed the destroyer's fate !

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; <-----> Hebrews 2:14

And there is much more which could be said, but this is all for now.

wm

 

[Ash Crimson]

Context is a lovely thing. So is the context of everything in the bible. You know, the whole story.

'All things' that are good for us. Actually he does.

Also - as for him 'loving' his own son. Would you prefer to spend eternity with a God who had never suffered as a human being? Never experienced grief or loss. Never known what it was to be tempted or experience agony and betrayal?

The bible describes christ as 'a man of sorrows'. Not just one who suffered sorrow on the cross.

He was filled with the holy spirit yet he was still a man. He still suffered grief, pain, etc.

We are told to 'follow' christ. It would be pretty hypocritical for God to ask us to 'follow' another God who had never experienced life as we do, yet overcome it.

It would also be pretty hypocritical for us to be that Gods 'bride' so to speak. Companion.

As I said - an attempt at a cheap cop out in my opinion.


Although I must admit, I have to wonder about the 'cross comforting' thing too. I find jesus's sacrifice comforting, the fact that he would do that for us - deliberatly and knowingly.
But I see another side to that that could be based on self-preservation too, that I don't like at all.

As in people seeing it as their get out of jail free card. God doesn't work like that.

Actually he doesn't give us all "good" things. A mate is good. I could back that up easily with a couple OT verses from Genesis and Proverbs. So that's not even necessary. We can make excuses for God not answering, or we can look at how God crushed his own son (and it pleased him, according to Isaiah) so if he did THAT to someone he actually loved, where does the sinner, the ungodly and the rest of humanity end up? We're screwed.

Peter says something like, "If the righteous be scarcely saved, where then shall the sinner and ungodly appear?" They're even more screwed. But we could also say that if God delighted in destroying his own son, how much more shall he delight in crushing us into dust?

It may sound harsh, but it's the truth.

I used to find the cross a symbol of love. But when I look at my life, and the way God is as harsh as brass toward me, I can't help but see things from another viewpoint. If we don't trust HUMANS who kill their own kids, why do we trust deities who do the same? God doesn't want to forgive, he wants blood and vengeance. That is the very reason for the murder of Jesus. Yet we're told to be loving and forgive even without repayment.

Yet God afflicts us, even though he apparently isn't mad at us anymore for being sinners.

The more I think of it, the more confusing it becomes, unless I see God as angry, vengeful and wrathful, which he is.

Also, I was always taught at church, that Jesus only did what he did out of obedience and love to the FATHER, it had nothing to do with us. So he was basically a throw-away or a scapegoat of a sacrificial lamb and nothing more. He basically had no say in the matter. The father sent him.

 

[wayfaring man]

If The Lord our God were really angry and wrathful towards us, we wouldn't be yet given time to repent, grow, and mature, we'd be consumed in an instant.

Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. <-----> Psalm 2:12

 

[elenore]

Actually he doesn't give us all "good" things. A mate is good. I could back that up easily with a couple OT verses from Genesis and Proverbs.

well you only deserve one like yourself, and if there are generational issues involved, it can complicate things or you can get more then you bargained for. demanding doesn't work either. either we trust him for whats best for our lives or we don't.

a 'mate' isn't always 'good' by any stretch of the imagination. he may have designed us to need certain things but that doesn't mean we will get them just by asking.

We can make excuses

And that isn't making excuses that's accepting and respecting the fact that God is God and not our own personal, supernatural vending machine.

or we can look at how God crushed his own son (and it pleased him, according to Isaiah)

allowed his life to be destroyed or crushed. and what - would protect his son from it but allow others in his creation to experience it. as I said.

and as for 'pleased' - it can also be translated as 'bend down' or move down to do something -
but regardless,
in context...

Is 53: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put [Him] to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see [His] seed, He shall prolong [His] days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, [and] be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

Ps 5:4 You are not a God who takes pleasure in evil; with you the wicked cannot dwell.

so if he did THAT to someone he actually loved,

I answered that but you're ignoring it, deliberatly.

Peter says something like, "If the righteous be scarcely saved,

Define 'saved'. Do you mean eternity?

It may sound harsh, but it's the truth.

You're looking for an excuse to walk away from God or do whatever you want.

Your choice.

I used to find the cross a symbol of love.

Why? Because it was your own get out of jail free card? If not, then why are you trying to deny the truth now?

But when I look at my life, and the way God is as harsh as brass toward me,

Have you given your life to him? Obviously not or you wouldn't be writing things like this. You seem to want him to be the sugar plum fairy and throw a hissy fit when he doesn't give you what you want, when you want.

The more I think of it, the more confusing it becomes, unless I see God as angry, vengeful and wrathful, which he is.

It's satisfying to blame God for everything isn't it. It makes you look and feel righteous.

Also, I was always taught at church, that Jesus only did what he did out of obedience and love to the FATHER, it had nothing to do with us. So he was basically a throw-away or a scapegoat of a sacrificial lamb and nothing more. He basically had no say in the matter.

He chose to go to the cross and make that sacrifice. The bible makes that very clear.



If you want to walk away from God. Do it. But don't try to justify it to others on the way out. You are what you are and out of the heart the mouth speaks.

 

[wayfaring man]

<staff edit>
The problem is that one cannot accurately critique God, who possesses an imperfect understanding of God.

Or in other words, if we're thinking well if I were God and I were to allow so much suffering, it could only be because I sadistically enjoy watching people's suffering.

And as such, this is by far, more an indictment against our own sinful nature than it is upon God's Holy Nature.

But if being Holy is completely not relatable to us, we are left with little more than vain and profane imaginations to go on.

Realizing that God is much higher and nobler than we as sinners can readily relate is a good place to start, when it comes to pondering The Divine.

Anything which tries to tell us God is ungodly is obviously a contradiction which cannot be true.

Some things may not make sense to us...but that is not good grounds for assuming/suggesting bad things about our Creator.

The very fact that some rail against God without being struck down with a bone crushing blow, speaks of God's great capacity for patience and understanding.

We can know God through knowing Jesus, and we can know Jesus through His Testimony, and The Gift of His Holy Spirit.

These are the prescribed ways to pursue the knowledge of The Holy.

Seek [well] and we shall find [well].

wm

 

[znr]

Actually he doesn't give us all "good" things. A mate is good. I could back that up easily with a couple OT verses from Genesis and Proverbs. So that's not even necessary. We can make excuses for God not answering, or we can look at how God crushed his own son (and it pleased him, according to Isaiah) so if he did THAT to someone he actually loved, where does the sinner, the ungodly and the rest of humanity end up? We're screwed.

Peter says something like, "If the righteous be scarcely saved, where then shall the sinner and ungodly appear?" They're even more screwed. But we could also say that if God delighted in destroying his own son, how much more shall he delight in crushing us into dust?

It may sound harsh, but it's the truth.

I used to find the cross a symbol of love. But when I look at my life, and the way God is as harsh as brass toward me, I can't help but see things from another viewpoint. If we don't trust HUMANS who kill their own kids, why do we trust deities who do the same? God doesn't want to forgive, he wants blood and vengeance. That is the very reason for the murder of Jesus. Yet we're told to be loving and forgive even without repayment.

Yet God afflicts us, even though he apparently isn't mad at us anymore for being sinners.

The more I think of it, the more confusing it becomes, unless I see God as angry, vengeful and wrathful, which he is.

Also, I was always taught at church, that Jesus only did what he did out of obedience and love to the FATHER, it had nothing to do with us. So he was basically a throw-away or a scapegoat of a sacrificial lamb and nothing more. He basically had no say in the matter. The father sent him.

You're angry and talking nonsense. I don't say this in a compassionless way either because I pray for you every day, because I KNOW your pain believe me. But you're saying things that I sense you don't really mean, saying them out of anger; not that I wish that were so for the sake of the Lord and witness, but rather because that's what I sense: you're crazed right now with frustration. I'm going to pray for you everyday, well for both of us. But my own suggestion is that you stop ranting so much because it only seems to make you more frustrated when you don't get the "compassion" you're looking for. In a sense you're setting yourself up by trying to have a discussion about your trials. I'm not saying don't talk about them, I'm just saying that you seem to be picking your wounds. I really DO care about what happens to you, and again I know your pain. Been there done that still doing that. The exact nature isn't the same as yours but that frustration and pain is.

 

[BFine]

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross, the emblem of suffering and shame; and I love that old cross where the dearest and best for a world of lost sinners was slain. Refrain: So I'll cherish the old rugged cross, till my trophies at last I lay down; I will cling to the old rugged cross, and exchange it some day for a crown. 2. O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world, has a wondrous attraction for me; for the dear Lamb of God left his glory above to bear it to dark Calvary. (Refrain) 3. In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine, a wondrous beauty I see, for 'twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died, to pardon and sanctify me. (Refrain) 4. To that old rugged cross I will ever be true, its shame and reproach gladly bear; then he'll call me some day to my home far away, where his glory forever I'll share. (Refrain)

 

[wayfaring man]

<staff edit>
Although some ill advisedly sure do try to change "the message".

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. <-----> Galatians 1:8+9

accursed - From The Greek word -

G331
&#945;&#787;&#957;&#945;&#769;&#952;&#949;&#956;&#945;
anathema
an-ath'-em-ah
From G394; a (religious) ban or (concretely) excommunicated (thing or person): - accursed, anathema, curse, X great.

"The Message" carries much more weight than any of us who act as "messengers".

Wherefore Scripture declares that any who grossly alter or pervert that Message, should be banned, excommunicated, as that which is cursed.... For if through adulteration, The Message gets lost - so also do all we.

***********************************************************************************************************************


And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. <-----> Revelation 14:6+7

 

[wayfaring man]

...but it got me thinking that too many believers spend WAY WAY WAY too much time noseying around in other's "sin". WAY WAY WAY too much time.

And on the other side of that "coined phrase", are the words -

Too many of us double-minded believers spend WAY WAY WAY too much time trying to cover up our sins, rather than "confessing and forsaking" them. WAY WAY WAY too much time.

He that covers his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesses and forsakes them shall have mercy. <-----> Proverbs 28:13

 

[Ash Crimson]

You're angry and talking nonsense. I don't say this in a compassionless way either because I pray for you every day, because I KNOW your pain believe me. But you're saying things that I sense you don't really mean, saying them out of anger; not that I wish that were so for the sake of the Lord and witness, but rather because that's what I sense: you're crazed right now with frustration. I'm going to pray for you everyday, well for both of us. But my own suggestion is that you stop ranting so much because it only seems to make you more frustrated when you don't get the "compassion" you're looking for. In a sense you're setting yourself up by trying to have a discussion about your trials. I'm not saying don't talk about them, I'm just saying that you seem to be picking your wounds. I really DO care about what happens to you, and again I know your pain. Been there done that still doing that. The exact nature isn't the same as yours but that frustration and pain is.

You're mostly right, and are very perceptive!

I don't believe God is sadistic, but when I look at the facts in my life, I sometimes wonder.

Rather than people assuring me God is good, though, I get attacked and that hardly helps anyone. You're right though, I'd do well not to rant or anything. I'm not mad at God per se, just unhappy in general about things.

 

[GodsHandiwork]

You're mostly right, and are very perceptive!

I don't believe God is sadistic, but when I look at the facts in my life, I sometimes wonder.

Rather than people assuring me God is good, though, I get attacked and that hardly helps anyone. You're right though, I'd do well not to rant or anything. I'm not mad at God per se, just unhappy in general about things.

Yes, God is Good...there is no goodness apart from Him. He is Truth and there is no truth apart from Him. He is Love and there is no love apart from Him. But, if you reject His goodness, then how can you received it? If you reject His truth, how can you receive understanding? He loves you. It was Jesus' joy to die for you. Heb12:2 ...For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. I understand life hurts...been there, still there. Cry out to Him...David did. God is Holy but He is real. Just realize that the pain you're crying out against is not from God, but is from our rejection of His Goodness, Truth, and Love. God is not a man that He would lie...believe Him.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the plans I have for you,&#8221; declares the LORD, &#8220;plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Isaiah 40:31
but those who hope in the LORD will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint.

Isaiah 57:10
You wearied yourself by such going about, but you would not say, &#8216;It is hopeless.&#8217; You found renewal of your strength, and so you did not faint.

Psalm 147:11
the LORD delights in those who fear him, who put their hope in his unfailing love.

Psalm 119:116
Sustain me, my God, according to your promise, and I will live; do not let my hopes be dashed.

Psalm 119:114
You are my refuge and my shield; I have put my hope in your word.

Psalm 42:5
Why, my soul, are you downcast? Why so disturbed within me? Put your hope in God, for I will yet praise him, my Savior and my God.

Psalm 33:18
But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,

Psalm 25:5
Guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Savior, and my hope is in you all day long.

I just read today's section from Oswald Chamber's My Utmost for His Highest entitled Wrestling Before God. You might find it interesting.
http://utmost.org/wrestling-before-god/

 

[NewUser777]

Ash Crimson, who do you think you are, Job? Job questioned God and God came down from heaven and told him to shut up. I hope you experience the same thing. It would make you wise up.

Jesus said don't glory in the fact that devils are subject to you, but be glad your names are written in heaven. Therefore, the most valuable thing a person can have is their name written in heaven. Everything else is superfluous.

When Christians get to heaven, no one is going to stand around saying:

Oh boy, I really had it bad on Earth, let me tell you about it OR
I had so many illnesses on Earth, oh it was awful OR
No one liked me on Earth, the girls just ran from me OR
(insert complaint here).

No one will care about what they went through because of the sheer joy of being in heaven with God!

Be glad you aren't going through more. I thought I was the only one with problems finding a mate after looking for decades, but I was wrong. I've found a lot of people with the same problem on these boards, and I don't hear them complaining about it. Yes, I go through misery every day of my life over this, but it's a cross I have to bear. Sorry, we human beings just aren't supposed to have everything perfect in this life. If we did, there would be nothing to trust God for. We would not need God anymore, because we would have everything we needed and we would soon forget God.

Troubles make us cry out to God, and sometimes it's the only time He hears from us. Think about that.

Regardless, stop your complaining. It's not doing you or anyone else any good.