Some questions

[marvin]

NO, as far as I can see. This would only confuse a person and isnt what they need to hear at this moment. First things first, that will come later. First and foremost, have they ever considered themself to be a sinner? Until then, nothing can happen to contribute to their salvation. If God has in fact done a work of regeneration in their heart they will respond to the irristable grace, display in interest in knowing of spiritual things and come to repentance and faith. In that case the 'election' has occured as has the limited atonement but they must acknowledge their sin and repent, asking for mercy first of all!
That's my view. Many here may have much more to offer!

McWilliams,

I just saw my post today (from yesterday) and the introduction was missing. Anyhow, I began by thanking you for your response and then saying I wanted to make a couple points. The way it came out looked kinda, well, arrogant, and I didn't want you or anyone else to think that I wrote it that way. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[bradfordl]

Well, its not a matter of hiding anything but just to give the necessary information and scripture needed for the person to see their need of a Savior!
None of us learn the whole picture of the doctrines of grace at one sitting! It took me a whole study class of many sessions covering Steele's Five Points of Calvinism to come to a real understanding after having been arminian for 60 yrs! Overwhelming doesnt begin to describe it! I was overjoyed but still just could not comprehend much of it concerning the atonement and irresistable grace! Heavy to consider and just giving the necessary points of salvation at first when witnessing seems ever so much more beneficial to the hearer!

MW,

I thought that way myself for a long time. Then I began to consider whether it was really necessary to "ease" hearers into the doctrines of God's sovereignty, or was it actually a result of the arminianism I had left behind. I now believe that God's absolute sovereignty and the election of the saints are really not very complicated, or difficult for new hearers to understand. Its just hard for unbelievers to accept... buddhist unbelievers or arminian unbelievers, which is what I was before God had mercy and opened my eyes.

We don't have to cajole or spoon-feed the Gospel. We should not try to stuff grand theological language into an initial explanation of the Gospel, but it is possible to explain the simple truth of God's sovereignty in simple terms. I think making accomodations for the pridefulness of the hearer (a common effect of arminianism), is a mistake, and can contribute to the confusion of an elect person, and hinder their ability to reject the error of self-salvation arminianism. That may be why so many of us have spent so much time lost in arminian arrogance.

Paul didn't piddle around at Mars Hill. He told where God really was;

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

He told them of His sovereignty;

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Told them why the must seek Him;

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Why their false worship was a mockery;

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And what is now required of them;

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


No accomodation, no apologies, no holding back the full proclamation of the might and power of the one sovereign God. And it was exactly as effective as God had ordained it would be. God is glorified (foremost motivation), His command to evangelize obeyed (second motivation), and the elect present are brought in if it is the appointed time (third motivation).

 

[McWilliams]

Well after further thought I think that Paul intended that new ones be fed milk initially and meat after gaining in maturity. That might indicate a need to keep it simple early on and show the person being witnessed to both the gospel and their need of a Savior. Then when they demonstrate some understanding further doctrine could be explained. 1 Cor. 3:2

 

[damoncrowe]

Marvin,
Arminians are generally characterized as believing that their works along with Christ's propitiation are what saves us. Calvinist rely completely on Christ merits and none on ours. One of the greatest gospel presentation I have ever heard was presented by a reformed Baptist missionary, Paul Washer. I think you can find him maybe on SermonAudio.com(?) When I was an Arminian, I did not think I was THAT bad, until I heard the antigospel (the BAD news). Washer starts out with the bad news. You are wicked and seperated from God at conception. You are an enemy of Christ and all of your "good" deeds are filthy rags. You cannot ask God into your life because you are at enmity against Him. You cannot find God because you will not seek Him. You cannot answer the gospel call because you are deaf. You cannot grasp life because you are a corpse, very dry sunbleached bones. That's some of the bad news. He then deals with the eternal dilemna. How can a Holy and Just God justify such a man. How can God have mercy on man and still be just. How can God allow man to enter His presence in prayer and still be Holy. Ahhhh! The GOOD news! In God's mercy in order to glorify Himself, He provided the sacrifice, just as Abraham had faith in. The unblemished Lamb of which EVERY SINGLE Old Testament sacrifice represented. The only way God can be the Just and the Justifier was to put all the sins of the saints on a subsitute and pour out His wrath on It. Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani, My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me? God forsook Christ because He bore the iniquities of every saint that had ever lived or ever would live. Even one single sin seperates the unregenerate from God and our father Adam took care of that one for us. So without Messiah, we have no part with God. Praise God Who is rich in mercy. That is the gospel. Of course alot more could be said, but this is only meant to be a very brief and compressed explanation.
It is interesting that there is no altar call in the gospel, there is no pleading, there is no wringing of God's hands. When one really considers it, the gospel seems a foolish approach to bring men to Christ. That is where Arminians begin to rely on human means i.e. the sinners prayer, alter calls, invitational hymns, emotional pleas, etc. God does not ask men to come as if He needs them. Your deeds are filthy and you are totally seperated with God!
I guess this is somewhat of a personal testimony because this is the manner in which God raised me from the dead. It is also necessary to know the nature of man in order to glorify God as we should (which I still fall very short of). You see as long as we think that we had some part in our salvation, no matter how small, we steal God's glory (and if by works it is no longer grace). Avery interesting question to consider is "where does faith come from?" Is it something that all men have? If so why do some use it and other do not. Are they more righteous? Now Arminians generally will attribute faith to the holder of it. In other words, "Your faith = Faith originated with you." With me there was a great deal of complacency in this idea. I had done something good. I viewed myself as basically good or at least capable of doing good and that when I was good and ready I could truly accept Christ as my Saviour and lead a godly life. Yeah right! Not only does the gospel bring life, it first brings death! Upon hearing the true gospel and the Spirit quikening me, I was brought low before God Almighty into a position of immense sorrow and a feeling of utter despair over my condition and absolute fear over my eternal position with God. At that point all that I could say was "God have mercy on me." Praise God!
If you still see no distinction between the biblical presentation of the gospel and the Arminian presentation, please do find Paul Washer. I do not agree with some of his positions on baptism, eschatology, polity, but he preaches the best gospel I have heard.
soli deo gloria
damoncrowe

 

[MadHermit]

My background is Pentecostal, typically equated to arminian. What I have found to be a key difference in the approach to evangelism is the concept of salvation being a choice or decision.

I will try to explain myself a bit more.

From an armenian perspective it would seem necessary to convince someone that they need Christ. The Romans Road as an evangelism tool is a good example. It follows a logical progression intending to lead someone to the understanding that they are a sinner in need of salvation. This approach relies heavily on the ability of the evangelist to present the information in a manner that can be understood and that will convince the sinner that they need salvation. I believe the modern push to make the gospel attractive and to market it effectively results from this approach.

From a calvanist perspective it is unnecessary to convince someone that they need Christ. The only necessity is to present the gospel as stated in scripture. It is not necessary to make any adjustment for the ability of the evangelist to deliver the message in a particularly effective manner, nor for the ability of the sinner to clearly understand the message. All that is necessary is that the gospel is preached.

It seems to boil down to mental evaluation and acceptance (man's choice) versus what will simply happen regardless (God's choice). The seed of the gospel sown on good soil will produce a crop... the soil doesn't have to think about it .

 

[McWilliams]

I too come from a long ago Assembly of God background as my dad was the pastor. As I studied the bible for myself and later was member of other various protestant denominations I saw all the confusion, including my own and never finding the real truth of it all!
Praying, that God would allow me to drop off all old teachings and to teach me His truth, His way and in His time and in a 'real' church where truth was never compromised. I read then The Sovereignty of God and in many jaw dropping moments while proving the points via scipture I saw His truth, finally in all its fullness! He is that truth, He is sovereign in all things!
Now about salvation, now that I was brought to the doctrines of grace and am a full 5 point card carrying calvinst I certainly know that before anyone can come to Christ and be saved they must gain a realization of what they are being saved from and to and why!! They are depraved sinners, all of them, including and especially me and I so desired to be saved from the wrath to come, which I and all others so fully deserve! I desired to be saved into the family of God and to be co-heir with Christ in heaven! Until one sees themself as wretched, deaf and blind, totally unable to ever be saved without the help of a Savior, it will never happen! When at that point God Himself intervenes, regenerates the heart and gives hunger to know HIm.
To witness to any one at all they must first come to grips with the fact that they are hopeless and helpless without Jesus Christ to do for them what they can never do for themself! There is no other way but through the blood of Christ and His gift of repentance for our sin!