LDS Some questions regarding Mormon views on Atonement

[withwonderingawe]

I would just like to point out that Phoebe Ann tends to quote Mormon writings in support of her contentions. It doesn't really seem as if her quotes are addressed,

She takes one liners out of context and demands we believe what her interpretation is. What if I were to quote Matt 5:29 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee" and then demand that all Christians must start plucking out their right eyes? That would be pretty silly. That is what Phoebe does, Yes if you're going to make it to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom you must have received the blessing of being sealed eternally.

But, lots of people die before they ever get the opportunity to be sealed, we believe any child who dies under the age of accountability is perfect, they return right back to our Heavenly Parents presence without judgement.

" Among all the glorious gospel verities given of God to his people there is scarcely a doctrine so sweet, so soul satisfying, and so soul sanctifying, as the one which proclaims—Little children shall be saved. They are alive in Christ and shall have eternal life. For them the family unit will continue, and the fulness of exaltation is theirs. No blessing shall be withheld. They shall rise in immortal glory, grow to full maturity, and live forever in the highest heaven of the celestial kingdom—all through the merits and mercy and grace of the Holy Messiah, all because of the atoning sacrifice of Him who died that we might live." Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Council of the Twelve.

Now why didn't Phoebe quote that one?

There are a lot of people who never marry in this life, they just don't find the one. I've got a 34 year old son who is not married. He has three herniated disc even after surgery, there is some sort of genetic degeneration going on in his back. He is in a great deal of pain, he's told me 'mom I can't care for myself how am I going to care for a family?' He's just kind of ruled marriage out. Someday he will be healed and someday he will find someone to love and they will be sealed, if not in this life in the next.

The same with the idea of Outer Darkness holding host to murderers unless they atone judiciously themselves via Capital Punishment. This means Jesus' sacrifice is insufficient for murder, so why not will it be insufficient for cumulative sins of a severe sinner or eventually for all human sin? The Atonement is strongly implied to be transactional by this, ie this much atonement for this much sin.

Now remember I quoted the Bible on that one, Heb 6 & 10
"
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Jesus said if you do it unto the lest of these you have done it unto me, if you murder you are doing it unto Jesus. BUT it only applies to a very small hand full, how many people ever taste of the powers of the world to come? Only prophets, ya have to have a rebellious prophet.

Saul stood by holding the coats of those who stone Stephen, he thought this is a good thing. At that point it would not have mattered if he had picked up a stone because he would have done so in ignorance. But, after he saw his vision and the Savior called him to his mission if Paul had rebelled and started to throw stones he would have become a son of perdition. Getting into outer darkness takes a lot of work and rebellion.

And how does your opposition to this apply to your own doctrines, most "Christians" believe in heaven and hell, that's it. The Savior's blood is "insufficient" for the vast majority of God's creation because they have been non christian and unsaved.

To me the idea of a graded Afterlife is disturbing in and of itself. Not necessarily hierarchy, but that there is a differentiation of access to the Father.
This again speaks to the insufficient Atonement as for some reason the Atonement is enough for certain individuals to reach God, but for others to have to loll about on lower planes. (Whether they reach God eventually and the higher one or not)

The atonement covers sins, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.." Isa 1:18. It covers them equally, he's not going to say to one I'll cover all of your sins and to another I'll cover only a third of yours. No, anyone one who bows the knee to him will be covered fully.

It's also not about chalking up brownie points but about cultivating Christ like love. The different degrees or Kingdoms are about the reward, it's about God deciding who is the good and faithful servant. He still loves those in the lesser kingdoms but he is not going to force anyone to be something they aren't. My oldest son is a good hard working man but he's not the brightest bulb in the package, I know it and he knows it, he has learning disabilities. I'm not going to force him into being a rocket scientist and neither is our Heavenly Father going to force us into being something we just don't fit into.

In Rev 21 and 22 it is reveal to us what God's plan is for those who endure, overcome and are the faithful servants.

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God..... He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son....but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.... for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

In Rev 3 the promise is "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne"

There is only one seat of power, those that overcome will be with God himself and he will have the hands to wipe away their tears. And they can see his face in it's full glory.

They will inherit all things as joint heirs with Christ, see Rom 8. All things means all things, all power, all authority, all knowledge. Yet they will still be his servants.

In the ancient temple the priest would wear the name of Yahweh on his forehead as he preformed his priestly duties. He did so as if he was Yahweh, he was acting as Yahweh's agent . Here in Revelations we are being told we will have Elohim's name written on our foreheads and we will act in his name.

In D&C 88 speaking of the light of God it says;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

Having light is to have the power of creation, God is going to give us this power of light and thus we will be made fully in his image and likeness as was his plan in the beginning. We will reign with him!

Now God is not going to give all of that knowledge, power and authority to anyone who has not learned to say "thy will be done" nor to anyone who has not learned to love as he loves.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

She takes one liners out of context and demands we believe what her interpretation is. What if I were to quote Matt 5:29 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee" and then demand that all Christians must start plucking out their right eyes? That would be pretty silly. That is what Phoebe does, Yes if you're going to make it to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom you must have received the blessing of being sealed eternally.

But, lots of people die before they ever get the opportunity to be sealed, we believe any child who dies under the age of accountability is perfect, they return right back to our Heavenly Parents presence without judgement.

" Among all the glorious gospel verities given of God to his people there is scarcely a doctrine so sweet, so soul satisfying, and so soul sanctifying, as the one which proclaims—Little children shall be saved. They are alive in Christ and shall have eternal life. For them the family unit will continue, and the fulness of exaltation is theirs. No blessing shall be withheld. They shall rise in immortal glory, grow to full maturity, and live forever in the highest heaven of the celestial kingdom—all through the merits and mercy and grace of the Holy Messiah, all because of the atoning sacrifice of Him who died that we might live." Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Council of the Twelve.

Now why didn't Phoebe quote that one?

There are a lot of people who never marry in this life, they just don't find the one. I've got a 34 year old son who is not married. He has three herniated disc even after surgery, there is some sort of genetic degeneration going on in his back. He is in a great deal of pain, he's told me 'mom I can't care for myself how am I going to care for a family?' He's just kind of ruled marriage out. Someday he will be healed and someday he will find someone to love and they will be sealed, if not in this life in the next.



Now remember I quoted the Bible on that one, Heb 6 & 10
"
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Jesus said if you do it unto the lest of these you have done it unto me, if you murder you are doing it unto Jesus. BUT it only applies to a very small hand full, how many people ever taste of the powers of the world to come? Only prophets, ya have to have a rebellious prophet.

Saul stood by holding the coats of those who stone Stephen, he thought this is a good thing. At that point it would not have mattered if he had picked up a stone because he would have done so in ignorance. But, after he saw his vision and the Savior called him to his mission if Paul had rebelled and started to throw stones he would have become a son of perdition. Getting into outer darkness takes a lot of work and rebellion.

And how does your opposition to this apply to your own doctrines, most "Christians" believe in heaven and hell, that's it. The Savior's blood is "insufficient" for the vast majority of God's creation because they have been non christian and unsaved.



The atonement covers sins, "though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow.." Isa 1:18. It covers them equally, he's not going to say to one I'll cover all of your sins and to another I'll cover only a third of yours. No, anyone one who bows the knee to him will be covered fully.

It's also not about chalking up brownie points but about cultivating Christ like love. The different degrees or Kingdoms are about the reward, it's about God deciding who is the good and faithful servant. He still loves those in the lesser kingdoms but he is not going to force anyone to be something they aren't. My oldest son is a good hard working man but he's not the brightest bulb in the package, I know it and he knows it, he has learning disabilities. I'm not going to force him into being a rocket scientist and neither is our Heavenly Father going to force us into being something we just don't fit into.

In Rev 21 and 22 it is reveal to us what God's plan is for those who endure, overcome and are the faithful servants.

"Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God..... He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son....but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.... for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

In Rev 3 the promise is "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne"

There is only one seat of power, those that overcome will be with God himself and he will have the hands to wipe away their tears. And they can see his face in it's full glory.

They will inherit all things as joint heirs with Christ, see Rom 8. All things means all things, all power, all authority, all knowledge. Yet they will still be his servants.

In the ancient temple the priest would wear the name of Yahweh on his forehead as he preformed his priestly duties. He did so as if he was Yahweh, he was acting as Yahweh's agent . Here in Revelations we are being told we will have Elohim's name written on our foreheads and we will act in his name.

In D&C 88 speaking of the light of God it says;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

Having light is to have the power of creation, God is going to give us this power of light and thus we will be made fully in his image and likeness as was his plan in the beginning. We will reign with him!

Now God is not going to give all of that knowledge, power and authority to anyone who has not learned to say "thy will be done" nor to anyone who has not learned to love as he loves.

Christ's atonement is sufficient for all creation in standard Christian theology, for it is not God that rejects man, but man that bolts the gates of Hell on the inside against God.
This is different from concepts where previously righteous murderers, even when begging forgiveness, cannot be atoned for. In orthodox Christianity they would be saved, but are condemned it seems in Mormonism.
(While I see your interpretation of Hebrews, this is far too literal as the rest of those chapters are clearly using metaphor, ie soil with rain etc. but this is of course my Christianity talking)

Likewise the graded afterlife. As I mentioned, there is no problem with hierarchy per se, but the idea of less than full communion with the godhead to full communion is abhorrent to me. It doesn't sound like the actions of God who loves his children, for such a God would want all His children with him. It is understandable though with the Henotheistic makeup of Mormonism as it seems to lessen the concept of God significantly.
It would mean though that where one ended up in the afterlife being dependant on how closely you followed the teachings of God, that the less atonement you required the higher your station, implying a transactional approach again.

To me this whole scheme seems to limit God, which to my mind begs the question of the origin of the Father and the pre-existent spirits. I think Mormonism would imply a need for a Higher God or Summus Dei by its view of both the Afterlife and the Atonement, at least as I see it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi Quid est Veritas,

I’m going to answer your atonement questions first, and then the hierarchal heaven stuff in a second post (I’m seeing two different subjects).

First, Christ as Judge doesn't really solve the problem as the wronged party remains the Father and not Jesus.

Same difference: they are ONE. To wrong Christ is the wrong the Father, and vise-versa.

but if not the Father himself, I still fail to see how this can be considered forgiveness and not just compensation.

Christ’s forgiveness in the Father’s forgiveness, and vise versa. They are ONE.

Second: If the Law belongs to both, why was Jesus anointed God of this world for the Atonement and creation? The passages quoted in this thread seems to imply the Law existed before with the Father alone, and chose a son to complete it, with Jesus volunteering.

You have this mostly right. The part I will correct is that Christ was God before this world as well, and it was His law as well. Also, again I will stress that Christ was the ONLY Son whom could complete it—this was far from an arbitrary choice.

I take it your Jesus and the Father are One is in a corporate sense? So this would be management promoting someone to Vice-President of the company to complete their business plan and in the process act as a sacrificial lamb for the President himself.

I don’t like your “corporate” analogy, because I see corporates being cold and impersonal.

The closest* thing we see to the unity between the Son and the Father is the perfect union between a husband and wife: they are completely unified to be ONE. What is his is hers, and vise versa. To here something from her is to hear it from him. To have him do something is to have her do something. They are ONE.

* And by “closest thing” I mean still light years and light years apart. We fallible sinful humans are so far from the glory that is God.

As to the Infinite nature of the Sacrifice of Jesus, this makes little sense to me when we consider a graded Afterlife with the concept of Blood Atonement and certain crimes being beyond its redemptive power. .

I’ll talk about the afterlife in my next post.

As to the Blood Atonement: do you realize that this was never official LDS doctrine and has been disavowed?

Honestly, I think going over a dead concept really messes up people’s understanding of the Atonement. A murder can repent and go to Heaven, even the highest heaven. Example: Moses.

Christ's atonement is sufficient for all creation in standard Christian theology, for it is not God that rejects man, but man that bolts the gates of Hell on the inside against God. .

This is also LDS theology: only our refusal of the savior’s infinite atonement keeps us from Him.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Addressing the Heaven subject---

LDS believe God will forgive us of our sins, in as much as we relinquish them to Him. If we love some of our sins more than Him, God will not force us to change. And by the same token, God will bless us as much as we allow Him to— again, if we love our sins more than Him, He won’t force us.

Let’s take an example of an unrepentant child molester “Bob”. Bob loves lust and power drives he gets from his sins. He loves that more than God. Now, in traditional Christian theology, Bob would simply burn in Hell for eternity (please correct me if I’m misrepresenting things here). In LDS theology, Bob is forgiven of the sins he will repent of, and gets to go to Heaven—it’s not the same magnitude of glorious Heaven Mother Teresa is in, but it’s still a mind-boggling super nice place. Bob even gets to feel the influence of God—not the Father or Son, but He does get to feel the Spirit. It is actually very merciful that Bob does not dwell in the Son’s presence- because Bob knows he did many horrible things, bring much suffering… but did not repent of it.

Let’s take another example of “George” who’s an okay dude- didn’t do anything horrible in life, and actually lives a good life generally following Christ. He repented of many of his sins, but still covets some of the accomplishments of others, and refuses to surrender that sin to the Lord. George gets a much nice afterlife than Bob, and dwells with Christ as well, but not the Father. Again, this is merciful, because George doesn’t want to dwell with the Father—he’s too aware of the spots of sin on him. (In your faith, what is George’s fate? I’m asking honestly.)

I realize that this is different than traditional creedal Christianity—in my mind it’s actually one of the big 5 differences between LDS thought and creedal Christianity. Personally, I find the LDS view to be much more merciful and demonstrates a more powerful and kind God than the binary tradition. Obviously I acknowledge and respect that other people feel different.

Now addressing some specific questions--

This again speaks to the insufficient Atonement as for some reason the Atonement is enough for certain individuals to reach God, but for others to have to loll about on lower planes.

The only thing which is limiting the atonement here is a person’s refusal to surrender their sins and accept the atonement.

The same with the idea of Outer Darkness holding host to murderers unless they atone judiciously themselves via Capital Punishment.

This is incorrect. Outer darkness is reserved for crimes much more severe than simply killing someone. Note: I’m not ignoring the extreme evil of murder, but pointing out the extreme extreme extreme evil of things such as denying the Spirit.

To me this whole scheme seems to limit God, which to my mind begs the question of the origin of the Father and the pre-existent spirits.

This seems like a different subject. Did you want me to answer it, or do you feel that we have enough subjects on our plates already?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Christ's atonement is sufficient for all creation in standard Christian theology, for it is not God that rejects man, but man that bolts the gates of Hell on the inside against God.
This is different from concepts where previously righteous murderers, even when begging forgiveness, cannot be atoned for. In orthodox Christianity they would be saved, but are condemned it seems in Mormonism.

But they are saved from outer darkness.

I'm trying to break this down so you understand it. In our understanding there are two parts to hell, the spirit prison and outer darkness. Alma experienced the racking pains of a dammed soul and then after three days it was brought to his memory the words of his father about Jesus, so he calls upon Jesus and asks for his mercy. He is immediately forgiven. This is what the spirit prison will be like for those who will not repent in this life, they will eventually be forgiven.

But it is assumed that the person who has "tasted of the world to come" then in his anger and pride commits murder has become so harden in his heart he will not repent. If in this life he does "come to himself" and repent then he must show it by submitting to capital punishment, he has a chance. But if he goes out of this life without repentance it is assume he just won't do it, he is past feeling the word of the Lord.

In the Book of Mormon there is a case in point;

Nephi speaking to his older brothers;
"....and ye also have sought to take away his/Lehi life; wherefore, ye are murderers in your hearts and ye are like unto them. Ye are swift to do iniquity but slow to remember the Lord your God. Ye have seen an angel, and he spake unto you; yea, ye have heard his voice from time to time; and he hath spoken unto you in a still small voice, but ye were past feeling, that ye could not feel his words; wherefore, he has spoken unto you like unto the voice of thunder, which did cause the earth to shake as if it were to divide asunder.... O, then, why is it, that ye can be so hard in your hearts?

Behold, my soul is rent with anguish because of you, and my heart is pained; I fear lest ye shall be cast off forever. Behold, I am full of the Spirit of God, insomuch that my frame has no strength. And now it came to pass that when I had spoken these words they were angry with me, and were desirous to throw me into the depths of the sea"

He reaches out his hand and he gives them a powerful shock which throws them to the ground, only that makes them back off. They try several more times to kill him, their own mother is suffering and pleads with them but their hearts are hard and they can't see past their own hatred of their brother. These two men are considered sons of perdition, they are passed feeling they will never repent. Not because God doesn't love them and wish they would they just wont do it.

There are only three men who are scripturelly documented sons of perdition, Cain and these to brothers. Even Hitler can't qualify because he never "tasted of the world to come". Brigham Young felt there were several who orchestrated the murder of Joseph Smith who also qualified, they saw angels. The men who organized and participated in the Mountain Meadow Massacre might also qualify depending on how much "of the world to come" any of them had experienced. John D. Lee is the only one who faced a firing squad but they had to drag him up there, it wasn't exactly willingly.

With Hitler he was taught about Jesus as a youth but he rejected him, he will sit in this spirit prison remembering each and every death which his actions caused, he will see the pain and sorrow and he will be racked with the pains of a damned soul. At some point before the last of the resurrection the concept of a Jesus and his mercy will come into his mind and he will call upon Jesus, mercy will be shown him and he will be released from the spirit prison. He will enter the Telestial kingdom, he will find happiness there.

In your concept Hitler will never be shown mercy he will burn forever.

 

[Rescued One]

She takes one liners out of context and demands we believe what her interpretation is.

I seldom, if ever, use one liners. Almost all lesson manual are online; this allows readers to read the entire lesson. The scriptures I quote are online. The conference talks and Ensign articles are online. I'm not hiding anything. I have a few lesson manuals in my personal belongings that are not online at lds.org. But I still provide the title of the manual and the page number.

What if I were to quote Matt 5:29 "And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee" and then demand that all Christians must start plucking out their right eyes? That would be pretty silly. That is what Phoebe does, Yes if you're going to make it to the highest degree of the celestial kingdom you must have received the blessing of being sealed eternally.

I don't think attacking another poster is an adequate defense of Mormonism. The example you're using is quite a stretch because I doubt that Jesus meant those words literally, and I don't wish any harm to Mormons. I never pray for God to punish Mormons.

Paul's prayer for Israel is a good example of how we should feel towards those who are lost or who might want to make us look foolish or even silence us:

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."
Romans 10:1

But, lots of people die before they ever get the opportunity to be sealed, we believe any child who dies under the age of accountability is perfect, they return right back to our Heavenly Parents presence without judgement.

" Among all the glorious gospel verities given of God to his people there is scarcely a doctrine so sweet, so soul satisfying, and so soul sanctifying, as the one which proclaims—Little children shall be saved. They are alive in Christ and shall have eternal life. For them the family unit will continue, and the fulness of exaltation is theirs. No blessing shall be withheld. They shall rise in immortal glory, grow to full maturity, and live forever in the highest heaven of the celestial kingdom—all through the merits and mercy and grace of the Holy Messiah, all because of the atoning sacrifice of Him who died that we might live." Bruce R. McConkie, Of the Council of the Twelve.
Now why didn't Phoebe quote that one?

Should I quote everything that Mormons have ever written? Who would read my lengthy, countless posts?

There are a lot of people who never marry in this life, they just don't find the one. I've got a 34 year old son who is not married. He has three herniated disc even after surgery, there is some sort of genetic degeneration going on in his back. He is in a great deal of pain, he's told me 'mom I can't care for myself how am I going to care for a family?' He's just kind of ruled marriage out. Someday he will be healed and someday he will find someone to love and they will be sealed, if not in this life in the next.

Even in Mormonism, no one can participate in a marriage ceremony in heaven and there's no scripture that states it will be done in the millennium. Handicapped people can find spouses. I know that because my husband had multiple fractures of various bones, one back surgery, one hip surgery, one ankle surgery, three herniated discs in his neck, degenerative disc disease, fibromyalgia and chronic pain. He died of cancer. But he provided for his wife and four children.

I'm sorry. I can't cover the rest of your lengthy post at this time.

 

[Rescued One]

In your concept Hitler will never be shown mercy he will burn forever.

This caught my attention. In your religion, blessings must be earned. Hitler will not be spared just as King David will not be spared.

Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

 

[withwonderingawe]

This caught my attention. In your religion, blessings must be earned. Hitler will not be spared just as King David will not be spared.

Alma 34
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

He's speaking to church members who had rejected Christ

My brethren, I think that it is impossible that ye should be ignorant of the things which have been spoken concerning the coming of Christ, who is taught by us to be the Son of God; yea, I know that these things were taught unto you bountifully before your dissension from among us.....

.....Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you."

See you are taking it out of context!

 

[withwonderingawe]

Speaking to single sisters president Ezra Taft Benson said;

The Lord Knows and Loves You
I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings.

I assure you that if you have to wait even until the next life to be blessed with a choice companion, God will surely compensate you. Time is numbered only to man. God has your eternal perspective in mind.

 

[Rescued One]

He's speaking to church members who had rejected Christ

My brethren, I think that it is impossible that ye should be ignorant of the things which have been spoken concerning the coming of Christ, who is taught by us to be the Son of God; yea, I know that these things were taught unto you bountifully before your dissension from among us.....

.....Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you."

See you are taking it out of context!

I've read the context. "for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world."

The Bible says, (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) --- 2 Corinthiams 6:2.

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: --- Hebrews 9:27

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: --- Isaiah 55:6

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; --- Ecclesiastes 12:1


And your own scripture:

Abraham 3
24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

Why does this say that earth life is the time and place to be tested if that isn't so?

 

[Rescued One]

Speaking to single sisters president Ezra Taft Benson said;

The Lord Knows and Loves You
I also recognize that not all women in the Church will have an opportunity for marriage and motherhood in mortality. But if those of you in this situation are worthy and endure faithfully, you can be assured of all blessings from a kind and loving Heavenly Father—and I emphasize all blessings.

I assure you that if you have to wait even until the next life to be blessed with a choice companion, God will surely compensate you. Time is numbered only to man. God has your eternal perspective in mind.

Show us the scripture that says there will be marriage ceremonies after death.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Addressing the Heaven subject---

LDS believe God will forgive us of our sins, in as much as we relinquish them to Him. If we love some of our sins more than Him, God will not force us to change. And by the same token, God will bless us as much as we allow Him to— again, if we love our sins more than Him, He won’t force us.

I would contend that God's forgiveness of our sins is not a conditional or a hypothetical; Christ did not die only for some sins, and Christ's death is not merely a starting point wherein we can have forgiveness. The death of Jesus Christ is the objective forgiveness of all sin. In Christ we don't merely have the path to forgiveness, Christ is God's answer to human sin, in which He has declared definitively that we are forgiven.

Let’s take an example of an unrepentant child molester “Bob”. Bob loves lust and power drives he gets from his sins. He loves that more than God. Now, in traditional Christian theology, Bob would simply burn in Hell for eternity (please correct me if I’m misrepresenting things here).

Trying to discuss a "traditional Christian theology" of Hell is difficult if only because there has never been a definitive articulation on the subject. What you present is a view that might be said to be common within the modern Christian West.

In LDS theology, Bob is forgiven of the sins he will repent of, and gets to go to Heaven—it’s not the same magnitude of glorious Heaven Mother Teresa is in, but it’s still a mind-boggling super nice place. Bob even gets to feel the influence of God—not the Father or Son, but He does get to feel the Spirit. It is actually very merciful that Bob does not dwell in the Son’s presence- because Bob knows he did many horrible things, bring much suffering… but did not repent of it.

You would be correct that this is at odds with a more traditional Christian view. If Bob was unrepentant and took joy in his sinful and evil activities without remorse then he would place himself outside of God's redemptive and restorative work for creation. Whatever else "Hell" might be, it is at the very least this: to be outside of what God is doing for the whole of creation in setting all things right; It is, in C.S. Lewis' imagery to essentially become the dehumanized machine of grumbling, locking oneself away from the mercy of God. Of course Bob here is a purely hypothetical person.

Let’s take another example of “George” who’s an okay dude- didn’t do anything horrible in life, and actually lives a good life generally following Christ. He repented of many of his sins, but still covets some of the accomplishments of others, and refuses to surrender that sin to the Lord. George gets a much nice afterlife than Bob, and dwells with Christ as well, but not the Father. Again, this is merciful, because George doesn’t want to dwell with the Father—he’s too aware of the spots of sin on him. (In your faith, what is George’s fate? I’m asking honestly.)

In Christ George has true and real hope in the resurrection and life in the age to come, and will be found with God forever in that future world.

From a Roman Catholic perspective this is where the concept of Purgatory would fit, wherein George will need to be cleansed from the temporal effects of sin.

As a Lutheran, however, our personal righteousness is always unworthy and it is only ever Christ's righteousness that matters. And what we have, by grace, through faith, is Christ's alien righteousness imputed to us. And the only thing that will bring us through the Judgment is the righteousness of Christ. And His righteousness clothes us, in our unrighteousness, like white robes on a filth beggar; and so what we have received is nothing less than eternal life from God, in Christ, and the solemn and irrevocable promise of life with God and in God forever and ever, world without end. The temporal consequences of sin dies with this mortal body, and as the body is raised immortal and incorruptible there is no need to speak of a purgation or cleanse of the temporal effects of sin--for we dwell now simul iustus et peccator (both saint and sinner) in the struggle between the old man dead in his sin and the new man alive to God in Christ our Lord. It is only the new man who shall abide forever, the old perishes with the death of the body or else at the transfiguration of the body at the resurrection of the dead ("we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord...").

Since the new man--the new creation created in Christ Jesus by the regeneration which we have received from God by the Holy Spirit in the waters of Holy Baptism, by the very power of God's word and Gospel--is alive now by faith by the grace of God it shall abide even beyond death, for it cannot die "He who believes in Me, though he may die, even shall he live"; and so we have now, by the promise of God in the Gospel, through faith, by the indwelling of the Spirit in us, this solemn and certain hope of life, the fullness of life, with God in the age to come.

The old man shall perish.
The new man shall live.

I realize that this is different than traditional creedal Christianity—in my mind it’s actually one of the big 5 differences between LDS thought and creedal Christianity. Personally, I find the LDS view to be much more merciful and demonstrates a more powerful and kind God than the binary tradition. Obviously I acknowledge and respect that other people feel different.

It doesn't seem particularly merciful from where I stand. As it effectively asserts there can be an incompleteness to the merciful work of God in Christ; there may exist a limited kind of existence for the unrepentant (rather than the fire and brimstone language of some modern Christian language); but it seems to pale completely under the weight of a more robust eschatological vision that can be seen in much of Christianity's tradition and history. Allow me to present St. Isaac of Nineveh,

“As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.”

And also,

“In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the One who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.”

“Let us not be in doubt, O fellow humanity, concerning the hope of our salvation, seeing that the One who bore sufferings for our sakes is very concerned about our salvation; God’s mercifulness is far more extensive than we can conceive, God’s grace is greater than what we ask for.”

The issue is not rewards and punishments, the issue is not degrees of reward. The issue is the good Creator God who, having made all things, is unwilling to allow His creation go to waste; and so condescending to meet us in Jesus Christ, has united Himself with us in our humanity, even in our mortality, and has shared in our suffering and in our death; and in dying He has died the death of all men, and in rising has lifted up the human creature to new and eternal life; and in Him and by Him we shall partake in that same life, the life of the age to come. And it is God's will that none perish, but all be saved, for He is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Not for reward of glory or fear of death, but for Christ's sake shall God save all things*.

-CryptoLutheran

*For the sake of clarity I'm not advocating "Universalism", but I am speaking of the universal scope of God's redemption and renewal of His creation to which we have been made partakers of by His grace.

 

[ViaCrucis]

As an addendum to my comments on "Bob" and "George", it seems appropriate to mention that herein we deal with hypothetical persons, not real actual persons. As far as actual persons are concerned it is not our place to say where or how God will Judge, only that God is the Judge. But we believe that in Christ there is eternal salvation and life in the world to come; and in Christ alone. Bob is not cut off from the future world simply because he is a depraved sinner, neither is George part of the future world because he was a "good person". For, again, it is by God's goodness and mercy, in Christ alone, that there is hope of that life of the future world. For our sins will be no obstacle to God's grace who has redeemed us of all sin by Christ who has suffered once and for all for the sins of the whole world; nor shall our works benefit us at all in light of God's righteous Law.

The banquet hall shall be inhabited, and the table seated sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, and the worthless of this world; for the last shall be first and the first last. For what matters at Christ's Table is the white robes of His righteousness, not our status--for before God we, all of us, are nothing but beggars.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi ViaCrucis! I always enjoy your thoughtful posts.

I would contend that God's forgiveness of our sins is not a conditional or a hypothetical; Christ did not die only for some sins, and Christ's death is not merely a starting point wherein we can have forgiveness. The death of Jesus Christ is the objective forgiveness of all sin. In Christ we don't merely have the path to forgiveness, Christ is God's answer to human sin, in which He has declared definitively that we are forgiven.

Clarifying myself: I am not saying that Christ's death is a starting point at all. I also agree with you that death of Jesus Christ is the objective forgiveness of sin.

The only sins Christ's atonement cannot cover are those that we refuse to let Him cover, via our refusal of Him and His atonement.

Trying to discuss a "traditional Christian theology" of Hell is difficult if only because there has never been a definitive articulation on the subject. What you present is a view that might be said to be common within the modern Christian West.

Really? The variety of beliefs in mainstream Christianity continues to surprise me! To avoid side-tracks, I won't ask more about it here, but I am very curious.

As a Lutheran, however, our personal righteousness is always unworthy and it is only ever Christ's righteousness that matters. And what we have, by grace, through faith, is Christ's alien righteousness imputed to us. And the only thing that will bring us through the Judgment is the righteousness of Christ. And His righteousness clothes us, in our unrighteousness, like white robes on a filth beggar; and so what we have received is nothing less than eternal life from God, in Christ, and the solemn and irrevocable promise of life with God and in God forever and ever, world without end. The temporal consequences of sin dies with this mortal body, and as the body is raised immortal and incorruptible there is no need to speak of a purgation or cleanse of the temporal effects of sin--for we dwell now simul iustus et peccator (both saint and sinner) in the struggle between the old man dead in his sin and the new man alive to God in Christ our Lord. It is only the new man who shall abide forever, the old perishes with the death of the body or else at the transfiguration of the body at the resurrection of the dead ("we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord...").

Since the new man--the new creation created in Christ Jesus by the regeneration which we have received from God by the Holy Spirit in the waters of Holy Baptism, by the very power of God's word and Gospel--is alive now by faith by the grace of God it shall abide even beyond death, for it cannot die "He who believes in Me, though he may die, even shall he live"; and so we have now, by the promise of God in the Gospel, through faith, by the indwelling of the Spirit in us, this solemn and certain hope of life, the fullness of life, with God in the age to come.

The old man shall perish.
The new man shall live.

Double checking my understanding of you here (I'm not sure if I'm getting it right): so you, as a Lutheran, would say that George gets redeemed of his coveting sin, even though he's not repentant of it?

It doesn't seem particularly merciful from where I stand. As it effectively asserts there can be an incompleteness to the merciful work of God in Christ; there may exist a limited kind of existence for the unrepentant (rather than the fire and brimstone language of some modern Christian language); but it seems to pale completely under the weight of a more robust eschatological vision that can be seen in much of Christianity's tradition and history. Allow me to present St. Isaac of Nineveh,

“As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.”

And also,

“In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the One who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.”

“Let us not be in doubt, O fellow humanity, concerning the hope of our salvation, seeing that the One who bore sufferings for our sakes is very concerned about our salvation; God’s mercifulness is far more extensive than we can conceive, God’s grace is greater than what we ask for.”

Thank you for your well articulated thoughts here, you make your view very clear and understandable, even if I don't personally share it.

The issue is not rewards and punishments, the issue is not degrees of reward. The issue is the good Creator God who, having made all things, is unwilling to allow His creation go to waste; and so condescending to meet us in Jesus Christ, has united Himself with us in our humanity, even in our mortality, and has shared in our suffering and in our death; and in dying He has died the death of all men, and in rising has lifted up the human creature to new and eternal life; and in Him and by Him we shall partake in that same life, the life of the age to come. And it is God's will that none perish, but all be saved, for He is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Not for reward of glory or fear of death, but for Christ's sake shall God save all things*.

-CryptoLutheran

*For the sake of clarity I'm not advocating "Universalism", but I am speaking of the universal scope of God's redemption and renewal of His creation to which we have been made partakers of by His grace.

I actually suspect that you and I are on the same note here: Christ does save all of the repentant. What we're disagreeing on it the quasi-repentant.

 

[Jane_Doe]

As an addendum to my comments on "Bob" and "George", it seems appropriate to mention that herein we deal with hypothetical persons, not real actual persons. As far as actual persons are concerned it is not our place to say where or how God will Judge, only that God is the Judge. But we believe that in Christ there is eternal salvation and life in the world to come; and in Christ alone. Bob is not cut off from the future world simply because he is a depraved sinner, neither is George part of the future world because he was a "good person". For, again, it is by God's goodness and mercy, in Christ alone, that there is hope of that life of the future world. For our sins will be no obstacle to God's grace who has redeemed us of all sin by Christ who has suffered once and for all for the sins of the whole world; nor shall our works benefit us at all in light of God's righteous Law.

The banquet hall shall be inhabited, and the table seated sinners, prostitutes, tax collectors, and the worthless of this world; for the last shall be first and the first last. For what matters at Christ's Table is the white robes of His righteousness, not our status--for before God we, all of us, are nothing but beggars.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

Double checking my understanding of you here (I'm not sure if I'm getting it right): so you, as a Lutheran, would say that George gets redeemed of his coveting sin, even though he's not repentant of it?

It may depend entirely on what you mean "not repentant of it". I like how the Augsburg Confession puts it,

"Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19:12.

Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these two parts: One is contrition, that is,terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ's sake, sins are forgiven, comforts the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance." - Augsburg Confession, Article XI and Article XII, 1-6

I would highlight

"although in confession an enumeration of all sins is not necessary."

The Lutheran Confessions take a stand against a popular opinion at the time that it was required to enumerate each and every sin at confession; the Lutheran stance is that this fundamentally isn't even possible; for one it would be impossible to recall each and every sin which we have committed at every hour of each day; but that is why we also in our general confession say (usually in some form), "Most merciful God, we confess that we have sinned against You in thought, word, and deed, by what we have done, and by what we have left undone..."

Has George continued to struggle with covetousness, and coveted even unknowingly? Or does continue to covet, and in earnest continue to confess his covetousness either by name or by such a general confession?

Or is George fully aware of his covetousness, and not only has no remorse for it, but delights in it, and scorns and has contempt against God in his refusal to repent?

In the former case of course George is repentant, even if he has not specifically enumerated his covetousness or every covetous act. In the latter case we would say George, in fact, has no faith in Christ and openly and actively opposes Christ and the gifts of God's mercy.

I actually suspect that you and I are on the same note here: Christ does save all of the repentant. What we're disagreeing on it the quasi-repentant.

And I'd say there really is no such thing as the "quasi-repentant"; being repentant is not about being able to remember and enumerate each and every sin; one is either repentant or they're not repentant. Without repentance there is no faith.

But it is Christ, when He comes to judge the living and the dead, who separates the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rescued One]

Here is an excerpt from "Repentance" at
Gospel Topics
lds.org:

Abandonment of Sin. Although confession is an essential element of repentance, it is not enough. The Lord has said, “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them” (D&C 58:43).

We must maintain an unyielding, permanent resolve that we will never repeat the transgression. When we keep this commitment, we will never experience the pain of that sin again. We must flee immediately from any compromising situation. If a certain situation causes us to sin or may cause us to sin, we must leave. We cannot linger in temptation and expect to overcome sin.

Restitution. We must restore as far as possible all that has been damaged by our actions, whether that is someone's property or someone's good reputation. Willing restitution shows the Lord that we will do all we can to repent.

Righteous Living. It is not enough to simply try to resist evil or empty our lives of sin. We must fill our lives with righteousness and engage in activities that bring spiritual power. We must immerse ourselves in the scriptures and pray daily for the Lord to give us strength beyond our own. At times, we should fast for special blessings.
____________________________

Joseph Smith taught:

• “To get salvation we must not only do some things, but everything which God has commanded. Men may preach and practice everything except those things which God commands us to do, and will be damned at last. We may tithe mint and rue, and all manner of herbs, and still not obey the commandments of God. The object with me is to obey and teach others to obey God in just what He tells us to do. It mattereth not whether the principle is popular or unpopular, I will always maintain a true principle, even if I stand alone in it.”
  Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 332

 

[Rescued One]

I would contend that God's forgiveness of our sins is not a conditional or a hypothetical; Christ did not die only for some sins, and Christ's death is not merely a starting point wherein we can have forgiveness. The death of Jesus Christ is the objective forgiveness of all sin. In Christ we don't merely have the path to forgiveness, Christ is God's answer to human sin, in which He has declared definitively that we are forgiven.



Trying to discuss a "traditional Christian theology" of Hell is difficult if only because there has never been a definitive articulation on the subject. What you present is a view that might be said to be common within the modern Christian West.



You would be correct that this is at odds with a more traditional Christian view. If Bob was unrepentant and took joy in his sinful and evil activities without remorse then he would place himself outside of God's redemptive and restorative work for creation. Whatever else "Hell" might be, it is at the very least this: to be outside of what God is doing for the whole of creation in setting all things right; It is, in C.S. Lewis' imagery to essentially become the dehumanized machine of grumbling, locking oneself away from the mercy of God. Of course Bob here is a purely hypothetical person.



In Christ George has true and real hope in the resurrection and life in the age to come, and will be found with God forever in that future world.

From a Roman Catholic perspective this is where the concept of Purgatory would fit, wherein George will need to be cleansed from the temporal effects of sin.

As a Lutheran, however, our personal righteousness is always unworthy and it is only ever Christ's righteousness that matters. And what we have, by grace, through faith, is Christ's alien righteousness imputed to us. And the only thing that will bring us through the Judgment is the righteousness of Christ. And His righteousness clothes us, in our unrighteousness, like white robes on a filth beggar; and so what we have received is nothing less than eternal life from God, in Christ, and the solemn and irrevocable promise of life with God and in God forever and ever, world without end. The temporal consequences of sin dies with this mortal body, and as the body is raised immortal and incorruptible there is no need to speak of a purgation or cleanse of the temporal effects of sin--for we dwell now simul iustus et peccator (both saint and sinner) in the struggle between the old man dead in his sin and the new man alive to God in Christ our Lord. It is only the new man who shall abide forever, the old perishes with the death of the body or else at the transfiguration of the body at the resurrection of the dead ("we who are alive and remain at the coming of the Lord...").

Since the new man--the new creation created in Christ Jesus by the regeneration which we have received from God by the Holy Spirit in the waters of Holy Baptism, by the very power of God's word and Gospel--is alive now by faith by the grace of God it shall abide even beyond death, for it cannot die "He who believes in Me, though he may die, even shall he live"; and so we have now, by the promise of God in the Gospel, through faith, by the indwelling of the Spirit in us, this solemn and certain hope of life, the fullness of life, with God in the age to come.

The old man shall perish.
The new man shall live.



It doesn't seem particularly merciful from where I stand. As it effectively asserts there can be an incompleteness to the merciful work of God in Christ; there may exist a limited kind of existence for the unrepentant (rather than the fire and brimstone language of some modern Christian language); but it seems to pale completely under the weight of a more robust eschatological vision that can be seen in much of Christianity's tradition and history. Allow me to present St. Isaac of Nineveh,

“As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful.

That is what the torment of hell is in my opinion: remorse. But love inebriates the souls of the sons and daughters of heaven by its delectability.”

And also,

“In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the One who has performed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.”

“Let us not be in doubt, O fellow humanity, concerning the hope of our salvation, seeing that the One who bore sufferings for our sakes is very concerned about our salvation; God’s mercifulness is far more extensive than we can conceive, God’s grace is greater than what we ask for.”

The issue is not rewards and punishments, the issue is not degrees of reward. The issue is the good Creator God who, having made all things, is unwilling to allow His creation go to waste; and so condescending to meet us in Jesus Christ, has united Himself with us in our humanity, even in our mortality, and has shared in our suffering and in our death; and in dying He has died the death of all men, and in rising has lifted up the human creature to new and eternal life; and in Him and by Him we shall partake in that same life, the life of the age to come. And it is God's will that none perish, but all be saved, for He is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Not for reward of glory or fear of death, but for Christ's sake shall God save all things*.

-CryptoLutheran

*For the sake of clarity I'm not advocating "Universalism", but I am speaking of the universal scope of God's redemption and renewal of His creation to which we have been made partakers of by His grace.

Can you tell me where you found the quotes about "Bob" and "George?" Thanks.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Can you tell me where you found the quotes about "Bob" and "George?" Thanks.

"Bob" and "George" were hypothetical persons mentioned in post #64.

-Cryptolutheran

 

[Rescued One]

"Bob" and "George" were hypothetical persons mentioned in post #64.

-Cryptolutheran

Thank you.