Some questions about your denomination

[nasa1]

Hello, I've been reading material about your church and I have found it very interesting.


I am very glad to see that you don't follow a creed. I detest creeds - how can you judge who is a Christian based on a creed? I have met Trinitarian, Nicene Creed believing lesbians for goodness' sake.


The only thing that bothers me is that there seems to be too much emphasis on musical instruments in church. I find this silly, for there is much evidence in the OT of worshipers praising God with instruments. I realize that the Restoration movement wants to emulate the early Christian church as much as possible. However, since the early believers often went to synagogue, learning from the Torah and living in a Jewish style, it is obvious then that worship would have included instruments. They also would have kept God's festivals and the Sabbath day.


I see that disciples are allowed to read the Bible for themselves and create their own views on things, and this is good. However, there should be teachings and warnings from the pastors to those that live in sin or who promote evil, worldly views among the believers - one of the biggest of these types of views being allowed in many churches today is the acceptance of practicing gays and lesbians. Obedience should be encouraged from the elders of the churches. If there is no guidance and everyone is left to do as they want, the Restoration Movement will end up like the Quakers - most of them are universalists, believing all religions lead to God.

If anyone has a comment on what I have just written please respond, especially if I have come to the wrong conclusions on any matter.

nasa1

 

[nzguy]

Greetings! I am interested in your comment with talking about 'universalists' is this meaning the doctrine of the universal church.. visible for Catholics and invisible for Protestants.. or for the New Age type of doctrine where truth is what you make it and all religions are paths to the same universal truths?

 

[nasa1]

Greetings! I am interested in your comment with talking about 'universalists' is this meaning the doctrine of the universal church.. visible for Catholics and invisible for Protestants.. or for the New Age type of doctrine where truth is what you make it and all religions are paths to the same universal truths?

Hello, no, the way I used the word "universalists" I meant those that believe everyone will one day be reconciled to God somehow. Like you said, all religions are paths to the same universal truths.


nasa

 

[nzguy]

ah thanks for that

Ya I was once a kind of a New Ager.. trying to combine those type of beliefs with Christianity..

the good parts of those New Age beliefs are the relational aspects where there is great acceptance and love toward eachother.. the bad parts are that those notions of love and acceptance are hinged on the fact that to be included in these beliefs you can't believe in exclusive truth! So in the end these beliefs are exclusive of the exclusive nature of Christ.. and therefore exclusivists!

 

[nzguy]

In regards to the doctrine of what 'church' is-

I wonder if I will find anyone with teh same teaching as this:

the body of Christ as an assembly or congregation with no universal aspect to it, with the Family of God being every believer living and dead.. and the Kingdom of God as every believer living.

I wonder?

 

[nasa1]

ah thanks for that

Ya I was once a kind of a New Ager.. trying to combine those type of beliefs with Christianity..

the good parts of those New Age beliefs are the relational aspects where there is great acceptance and love toward eachother.. the bad parts are that those notions of love and acceptance are hinged on the fact that to be included in these beliefs you can't believe in exclusive truth! So in the end these beliefs are exclusive of the exclusive nature of Christ.. and therefore exclusivists!

Yes, I totally agree with you...that path, although filled with good intentions, doesn't lead anywhere. I was talking to some people in the emergent church and they do not believe in absolute truth. You can't if you want to be one with the other religions!


Jesus is the Way. It is not "Living or acting like Jesus is the Way." Jesus is the Truth, not "believe in the truth of the golden rule, like Christ." Jesus is the Life, not "Living like Christ brings you life." We must bow down to Him, and go through the gate if we want to get to the Father.

nasa

 

[fishon]

Hello, I've been reading material about your church and I have found it very interesting.


I am very glad to see that you don't follow a creed. I detest creeds - how can you judge who is a Christian based on a creed? I have met Trinitarian, Nicene Creed believing lesbians for goodness' sake.


The only thing that bothers me is that there seems to be too much emphasis on musical instruments in church. I find this silly, for there is much evidence in the OT of worshipers praising God with instruments. I realize that the Restoration movement wants to emulate the early Christian church as much as possible. However, since the early believers often went to synagogue, learning from the Torah and living in a Jewish style, it is obvious then that worship would have included instruments. They also would have kept God's festivals and the Sabbath day.


I see that disciples are allowed to read the Bible for themselves and create their own views on things, and this is good. However, there should be teachings and warnings from the pastors to those that live in sin or who promote evil, worldly views among the believers - one of the biggest of these types of views being allowed in many churches today is the acceptance of practicing gays and lesbians. Obedience should be encouraged from the elders of the churches. If there is no guidance and everyone is left to do as they want, the Restoration Movement will end up like the Quakers - most of them are universalists, believing all religions lead to God.

If anyone has a comment on what I have just written please respond, especially if I have come to the wrong conclusions on any matter.

nasa1

Nasa1,
I am a Church of Christ pastor, with the "Instrumental" wing of the CofC. Not all of us are non-instrumental. At times I have had people who are nons stopby our church and check us out to see if we were non or not. I tell them we are instrumental, but if they want to worship want to worship with us we will put up the instruments for the day. That is our freedom in Christ. Interestingly, no one has taken me up on it.

Maybe I have misunderstood you, but CoC pastors, non and otherwise preach against sin, big time. And I no of NO CofC preacher that preaches the gay lifestyle of sin is acceptable.

And I do not know what you have been reading, but CofC pastors give much guidance and straight Bible teaching. Do not confuse us with the United Church of Christ, of which there is absolutely NO affiliation and never has been.

What book are you reading about CofCs? I would be interested to know.
fishon

 

[Sophia7]

Hello, I've been reading material about your church and I have found it very interesting.


I am very glad to see that you don't follow a creed. I detest creeds - how can you judge who is a Christian based on a creed? I have met Trinitarian, Nicene Creed believing lesbians for goodness' sake.


The only thing that bothers me is that there seems to be too much emphasis on musical instruments in church. I find this silly, for there is much evidence in the OT of worshipers praising God with instruments. I realize that the Restoration movement wants to emulate the early Christian church as much as possible. However, since the early believers often went to synagogue, learning from the Torah and living in a Jewish style, it is obvious then that worship would have included instruments. They also would have kept God's festivals and the Sabbath day.


I see that disciples are allowed to read the Bible for themselves and create their own views on things, and this is good. However, there should be teachings and warnings from the pastors to those that live in sin or who promote evil, worldly views among the believers - one of the biggest of these types of views being allowed in many churches today is the acceptance of practicing gays and lesbians. Obedience should be encouraged from the elders of the churches. If there is no guidance and everyone is left to do as they want, the Restoration Movement will end up like the Quakers - most of them are universalists, believing all religions lead to God.

If anyone has a comment on what I have just written please respond, especially if I have come to the wrong conclusions on any matter.

nasa1

I just have a few comments. The Restoration Movement isn't a denomination. There are actually a few different groups/churches that consider themselves part of the Restoration Movement--Churches of Christ, Disciples of Christ, and Independent Christian Churches. The Churches of Christ are probably what you're referring to in your comments on non-instrumental music. The Disciples of Christ and Independent Christian Churches usually do use instrumental music in their worship services, and I believe even some CoC congregations do. You can read a brief overview in this informational sticky.

Regarding your concern about these churches not giving any guidance and letting people believe whatever they want, that's not how it works. I'm currently attending a non-denominational church that's loosely affiliated with the Independent Christian Churches. My church has a statement of beliefs (but not a creed that people have to affirm as a test of "orthodoxy" or anything), which includes things that most Christians would consider essential Christian beliefs. The pastor preaches from the Bible, and we have small groups during the week that study the Bible. Also, my church is pretty conservative on things like gay marriage and even women pastors and elders. (Disciples of Christ would be more likely to have women pastors.)

You may have heard this saying: "In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity." Some churches spell out more things that they consider essential than others. Some churches allow more room for liberty of conscience on disputable matters than others. That doesn't mean that they don't take biblical stands on issues or that they are promoting worldly views and sinful practices among believers.

 

[nasa1]

Nasa1,
I am a Church of Christ pastor, with the "Instrumental" wing of the CofC. Not all of us are non-instrumental. At times I have had people who are nons stopby our church and check us out to see if we were non or not. I tell them we are instrumental, but if they want to worship want to worship with us we will put up the instruments for the day. That is our freedom in Christ. Interestingly, no one has taken me up on it.

Maybe I have misunderstood you, but CoC pastors, non and otherwise preach against sin, big time. And I no of NO CofC preacher that preaches the gay lifestyle of sin is acceptable.

And I do not know what you have been reading, but CofC pastors give much guidance and straight Bible teaching. Do not confuse us with the United Church of Christ, of which there is absolutely NO affiliation and never has been.

What book are you reading about CofCs? I would be interested to know.
fishon

I have been reading the Wikipedia article of your movement.

I am happy to know there are good guidelines in your church. It sounds like the kind of church for me, because it is not based on creeds, yet sin is not allowed and proper Biblical guidelines are followed.

Now all I have to do is find a Restoration church here in the city!

nasa

 

[- DRA -]

Hello, I've been reading material about your church and I have found it very interesting.


I am very glad to see that you don't follow a creed. I detest creeds - how can you judge who is a Christian based on a creed? I have met Trinitarian, Nicene Creed believing lesbians for goodness' sake.


The only thing that bothers me is that there seems to be too much emphasis on musical instruments in church. I find this silly, for there is much evidence in the OT of worshipers praising God with instruments. I realize that the Restoration movement wants to emulate the early Christian church as much as possible. However, since the early believers often went to synagogue, learning from the Torah and living in a Jewish style, it is obvious then that worship would have included instruments. They also would have kept God's festivals and the Sabbath day.


I see that disciples are allowed to read the Bible for themselves and create their own views on things, and this is good. However, there should be teachings and warnings from the pastors to those that live in sin or who promote evil, worldly views among the believers - one of the biggest of these types of views being allowed in many churches today is the acceptance of practicing gays and lesbians. Obedience should be encouraged from the elders of the churches. If there is no guidance and everyone is left to do as they want, the Restoration Movement will end up like the Quakers - most of them are universalists, believing all religions lead to God.

If anyone has a comment on what I have just written please respond, especially if I have come to the wrong conclusions on any matter.

nasa1

The best source of material on the church of Christ is the book of Acts. It explains it beginning in chapter 2, and its spread from Jerusalem to other locations in the following chapters. Ephesians chapters 2-4 explains God's wisdom in uniting both Jews and Gentiles into one body or church.

As for instrumental music, the issue isn't just whether or not to use instruments. Rather, it's one of respecting what God says when He specifically tells us what He wants. For example, God told Nadab and Abihu what He wanted in Leviticus 10:1-2. They chose to do something else. The conclusion we are left is they made the wrong choice. Another lesson is Hebrews 7:13-14; 8:4. God specified priests would be from the tribe of Levi under the law of Moses. God was silent about priests from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, were they authorized or not? They weren't. Therefore, Jesus, who was from the tribe of Judah, was a priest after a different order. From the order of Melchizedek. With this points in mind, God specifies what He wants from us today in passages such as Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16, and James 5:13. Applying the principles previously discussed, it should be sufficient and to our benefit by simply doing what God has said He wants.

I am one of the elders in the church. I know of no practicing (or current) lesbians or gays in the church who are considered to be faithful. Those that repent are welcome to embrace the gospel of Christ and live faithfully along with the rest of us.

Rest assured. The church of Christ that you read about in the N.T. has no written creed other than God's word. It is sufficient per 2 Timothy 3:16-17, James 1:21-25, 1 Peter 4:11a, and 2 Peter 1:3. Folks are NOT at liberty to walk as they please. Rather, they are admonished to follow the N.T. pattern.

 

[HeyHomie]

Instrumental music isn't nearly as big a deal in real life as it is on this message board.

Most congregations that identify with the RM have instrumental music. A small minority do not. If you prefer a capella, go to a church that practices a capella. If you prefer instruments, go to one that uses instruments. No big deal either way.

 

[DerSchweik]

I have been reading the Wikipedia article of your movement.

I am happy to know there are good guidelines in your church. It sounds like the kind of church for me, because it is not based on creeds, yet sin is not allowed and proper Biblical guidelines are followed.

Now all I have to do is find a Restoration church here in the city!

nasa

Amen bro! Let us know how your search turns out!

When someone first started studying the bible with me, I was intrigued by the emphasis on the Word. When I eventually visited his church and sat in a class which lesson was rather convicting - I will always remember the teacher saying (I paraphrase) "That's what I believe the bible teaches on this subject, having gone through all the relevant verses and passages I know discussing this. I know it's tough, and if you believe what I've presented is incorrect, please, let's discuss it, and if I'm wrong - I'll change." That really impressed me. And it wasn't but a few weeks later I became a Christian.

 

[- DRA -]

Instrumental music isn't nearly as big a deal in real life as it is on this message board.

Most congregations that identify with the RM have instrumental music. A small minority do not. If you prefer a capella, go to a church that practices a capella. If you prefer instruments, go to one that uses instruments. No big deal either way.

In light of passages such as Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23 I wouldn't get too carried away with the majority versus minority reasoning. What really matters is whether or not our reasoning is based on the "sound doctrine" of God's word (2 Timothy 4:1-4).

 

[crawfish]

In light of passages such as Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23 I wouldn't get too carried away with the majority versus minority reasoning. What really matters is whether or not our reasoning is based on the "sound doctrine" of God's word (2 Timothy 4:1-4).

No offense, but we have many better threads for this argument. No need to let it infect EVERY discussion...

 

[DerSchweik]

In light of passages such as Matthew 7:13-14, 21-23 I wouldn't get too carried away with the majority versus minority reasoning. What really matters is whether or not our reasoning is based on the "sound doctrine" of God's word (2 Timothy 4:1-4).

No offense, but we have many better threads for this argument. No need to let it infect EVERY discussion...

Agreed, and heading towards becoming off topic to this thread.

 

[- DRA -]

No offense, but we have many better threads for this argument. No need to let it infect EVERY discussion...

"Infect" sounds like such a nasty word. If instrumental music is truly "infecting" the discussion, then that's the way the thread started. Check out the original post. It mentions instrumental music.

My point wasn't so much to discuss instrumental music. On any topic, regardless of the discussion, we have to compare/contrast our reasoning what the Bible says and not get caught up in the majority versus minority thing. Old lesson. David and Goliath. Saul and the whole army of Israel was afraid. David, one young man, was in the minority. Point? The majority isn't always right. Another old lesson. Book of Nehemiah. The majority of Jews that returned to Israel had been back some 92 years. The walls of Jerusalem were NOT rebuilt. However, the walls were rebuilt in 52 days. So, what changed? How were God's people able to accomplish in 52 days what hadn't been accomplished in the previous 92 years?

Perhaps you've heard me state before that the real issues with instrumental music are with authority and Bible interpretation. To illustrate, a lot of folks say that instrumental music is okay because the Lord doesn't specifically say NOT to do it. Therefore, relating that principle to this thread, denominations must be okay (i.e., acceptable to God). They are NOT condemned. No where in God's word does it say we shouldn't be a member of a denomination. Therefore, they must be acceptable, right (as the reasoning goes)? Who among us would use such reasoning on behalf of denominations? Hopefully, none. The Lord promised to build His church in Matthew 16:18, and it was established in Acts 2 ... the saved were added to it in verse 47. We read about how it spread in the chapters that follow in Acts. Some brethren fell away in apostacy per 1 Timothy 4:1-3 - which we understand to be the Catholic Church. Later, denominations formed when folks protested against the Catholic Church and tried to reform it. Therefore, from both a scriptural and historical view, we see where/how denominations fit into the picture. With that said, going back to the original reasoning, there's really much more to be considered than just saying the Bible doesn't condemn them. It sure doesn't approve of them either. That part is left out. It's true for multiple issues. God tells what He established (the Lord's church) and how we should worship and serve Him. There is NO extensive list of the "thou shall nots" when we consider the multitude of possibilities. Therefore, it's a matter of faith. Do we have the faith to take God at His word? Or, do we say/act like we do ... and do what really suits us? We have to decide. All of us. No exceptions. Hopefully, we choose wisely.

 

[- DRA -]

Agreed, and heading towards becoming off topic to this thread.

Appreciate your concern.

I have no intentions of derailing the thread. The focus and attention for all spiritual topics needs to be upon God's word and what it says. It is the eye salve that helps us all see things as God sees them (Rev. 3:18).

To Him be the glory.

 

[fishon]

Appreciate your concern.

I have no intentions of derailing the thread. The focus and attention for all spiritual topics needs to be upon God's word and what it says. It is the eye salve that helps us all see things as God sees them (Rev. 3:18).

To Him be the glory.

I absolutely agree with your statement: The focus and attention for all spiritual topics needs to be upon God's word and what it says. Yesiree, not on what it doesn't say. It doesn't say anything about Sunday School, so we have them and can agree on them. It doesn't say anything about choirs, so we can agree, we can have them. It doesn't say anything about Vacation Bible School, so we agree, we can have them. If memory serves me, the Bible does not tell us we can not make seperate building to gather and worship in, so we agree, we can have them. Darned if I can find where the Bible tells us anything about worshipping together on Wednsday nights, so we agree, we can do it. Aha, the freedom of silence.
In Christ,
fishon

 

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Appreciate your concern.

I have no intentions of derailing the thread. The focus and attention for all spiritual topics needs to be upon God's word and what it says. It is the eye salve that helps us all see things as God sees them (Rev. 3:18).

To Him be the glory.

I absolutely agree with your statement: The focus and attention for all spiritual topics needs to be upon God's word and what it says. Yesiree, not on what it doesn't say. It doesn't say anything about Sunday School, so we have them and can agree on them. It doesn't say anything about choirs, so we can agree, we can have them. It doesn't say anything about Vacation Bible School, so we agree, we can have them. If memory serves me, the Bible does not tell us we can not make seperate building to gather and worship in, so we agree, we can have them. Darned if I can find where the Bible tells us anything about worshipping together on Wednsday nights, so we agree, we can do it. Aha, the freedom of silence.
In Christ,
fishon

One aspect of silence is addressed in Hebrews 7:13-14; 8:4. When God specifies what He wants, other "options" aren't authorized - even though God was silent about them.

Things generically authorized are different. For instance, God authorized (or commanded) Jesus' disciples to preach the gospel of His Son (e.g., Matthew 28:19-20, 2 Timothy 4:2). And, we find that teaching was done when the church came together (e.g., Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 14). Teaching also was done in the school of Tyrannus (Acts 19:9), and in numerous locations as opportunities presented themselves. Bible classes (i.e., Sunday School) are expediencies (those things helpful in doing that which is authorized). Classes are designed to teach adults/children at different levels of learning. VBSs and mid-week Bible studies (i.e., Wednesday night services) would fall into the same category.

I view choirs differently. Each Christian is commanded to "sing and make melody in your heart" per Ephesians 5:19, as opposed to choirs where folks listen to others sing.

 

[crawfish]

Oh, well. It was worth a try.