Some question

[TheUndecided]

Hi everyone my names Chris i was baptized as a child and went to Sunday school and church in my early years. I cant say i ever had a true belief in God and have some questions if you would please take the time to read.

why should a person have to believe in order to be accepted by God . Id happily accept god's existence if he revealed himself to me. If i have an obligation to God during my life he certainly has that obligation to me. Why should i blindly take the word of people telling me of his existence when we know people can be very wrong and very flawed.

What about people who have lived moral lives and never committed a crime how can they be considered a sinner for not believing. Wouldn't god reveal himself to everyone in the end regardless of whether they believed or not and judge them on the lives they lived, my belief in God should be unimportant to him. What should be important to him is what sort of person i was during my lifetime.


Also how am i meant to believe in God when even the people ordained or who believe tell me his word is so unimportant that we can decide what parts we want to believe and dismiss or change anything we don't like ? The bible as i can see evolves to conform to the society of that time and is constantly being revised. Regardless of whether or not it was originally the word of god which could very well be true , it was translated,written and is constantly revised by fallible people , after enough revision it's not even going to resemble the original teachings. It conforms to the moral compass of the day


I hope my questions don't come across confrontational because they are not meant in that way as i am in no way criticizing anyone's belief.



Thanks for reading take care.

 

[Greg J.]

Hi, TheUndecided. Your questions are not new, and I still find them interesting. You're not being confrontational. Most Christians have had to fight to get answers to the same questions. Whole books have been written to address the kinds of questions you asked, so I tried to keep my post short, but I failed, heh. Even so, I'd be happy to try to answer follow-up questions.

why should a person have to believe in order to be accepted by God . Id happily accept god's existence if he revealed himself to me. If i have an obligation to God during my life he certainly has that obligation to me. Why should i blindly take the word of people telling me of his existence when we know people can be very wrong and very flawed.

As far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't take anybody's word blindly. God certainly doesn't expect you to check your brain at his door. However, for such an important matter as whether God is real and Jesus is his son (and all that he said is true), and the consequences of the choices before you, it is sufficiently serious that looking more deeply into it is worthwhile.

There's lots of ways to do this. Look at some different kinds of evidence to see how believable they are to you. One approach is to look into the kind of evidence that this web page shows. Another way is to look at the lives of the people who are making claims. Are they demonstrating what they preach with their own lives? Even if under pressure to do otherwise? For anyone who says one thing but does another, I would say that he doesn't genuinely believe what he is saying. Genuine belief of anything produces actions consistent with that belief. Do you believe a meteor is going to crash through the roof today and strike you? Presumably not, but imagine how you would respond if you genuinely believed it was. You would react quite differently than just believing that it might. Do the people that are telling you truths about Jesus behave as if those truths might be true or as if those truths are true. Unfortunately, Christians are human, too, and you can't just look at one Christian for a reliable answer.

If you find such a person, then get to know them enough that you can decide for yourself if they are the type of person that makes up stories and tells them to people as if they were true. The other possibility is that they perceive things happening that are not actually happening (medically speaking, a psychosis). You don't have to get to know someone very long to spot instances of this.

If you believe they don't have psychotic episodes and don't make up stories, then why do they believe in God? You can ask them. There are some common answers, but everyone's experiences are unique to them.

I was blessed that the first church I attended provided people with the opportunity to share about what God had done for them in the last week to a good chunk of the rest of the congregation. Occasionally I heard "unbelievable" stories about God helping people and answering their prayers. Some of them were clearly not making up stories, and some of the situations were such that it was impossible for it to happen without God (e.g., multiple non-trivial tumors disappearing over night after being prayed for by Christians). Following up on them (often much) later confirmed this to be the case. Some people that experience things like this get copies of the before and after X-rays so they can show people. I've asked myself for what reason would such people go to great lengths just to show them to other people who already believe in Jesus? (This is only an example; things like this have happened to me, but I don't think I've experienced this particular example firsthand.)

What about people who have lived moral lives and never committed a crime how can they be considered a sinner for not believing. Wouldn't god reveal himself to everyone in the end regardless of whether they believed or not and judge them on the lives they lived, my belief in God should be unimportant to him. What should be important to him is what sort of person i was during my lifetime.

This is the consequence of thousands of years of people pushing God out of their lives. God respects people's right to choose more than anything it seems (because he made us like himself). God doesn't go where people don't want him. What you, your friends, family, ancestors, and community have done has a far bigger impact God's presence that what you think you want. If you genuinely wanted God to show himself to you, your actions would be consistent with this.

Also how am i meant to believe in God when even the people ordained or who believe tell me his word is so unimportant that we can decide what parts we want to believe and dismiss or change anything we don't like ? The bible as i can see evolves to conform to the society of that time and is constantly being revised. Regardless of whether or not it was originally the word of god which could very well be true , it was translated,written and is constantly revised by fallible people , after enough revision it's not even going to resemble the original teachings. It conforms to the moral compass of the day

Stop listening to those people. The Bible, as it was originally written down (in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic) is 99+% the same as what we have today in those languages. The earliest sizable chunks of the Old Testament are more than 2700 years old. The oldest fragment of the New Testament is from about 50 years after the last apostle died.

However, translating the ancient languages into English is no small task. (Consider how important the translators believe it is to make it accurate. Usually many translators are involved in making a Bible translation.) However, each effort to translate it into English has been done with different goals in mind. The New American Standard Bible (NASB) is the closest to the original language, but is more difficult to understand. It requires knowing more about the culture of those times to be able to interpret what the words mean. [A lot of people like the King James Version (KJV), although I would recommend the New King James Version (NKJV).]

For those that don't want to study so much about the cultures (at least at first), there are translations that try to maintain the meaning of the original but use easier to understand grammar and words. The New International Version (I recommend the 1984 version) is a happy medium, however there are even easier to understand translations, but the cost of making them easier to understand is that they are less exactly like the original language. I'd recommend the New Living Translation (NLT) to people that wanted to go that route. There's nothing at all wrong with the easier-to-understand translations, just so you know that is what you're reading.

The only real way to know which is best for a person is to read the same passage in each translation being considered. Having Bible Study notes added by the publisher can also be good help, and lessens the severity of not knowing the culture of those times.

 

[TheUndecided]

I was blessed that the first church I attended provided people with the opportunity to share about what God had done for them in the last week to a good chunk of the rest of the congregation. Occasionally I heard "unbelievable" stories about God helping people and answering their prayers. Some of them were clearly not making up stories, and some of the situations were such that it was impossible for it to happen without God (e.g., multiple non-trivial tumors disappearing over night after being prayed for by Christians).

I agree that things like this do seem quite miraculous but it wouldn't necessarily lead me to believing in God , it could certainly make me wonder if a higher power was at work but then at the same time i'm not to sure it sits to well with me , if God shows the ability to intervene in one case over ignoring another such cases. .

I have heard of cases where a cancer can disappear and i'm perfectly happy to accept on rare occasions it happens. But rather than accept it was purely through prayer and God i would want to find a more natural reason if that's the correct way of saying it for why it happened so that we could possibly find a cure for the disease and help others , i would want to exhaust other possible reasons first before making such a leap of faith.

Also i have often wondered how people of faith perceive medical intervention . No one in their right mind would ever tell someone not to seek medical help if they needed it and tell them if it's gods will they should die it cant be helped. Let's say for example you seek medical help for a disease like cancer aren't you telling God hold on a second your plan for me is wrong. How can it be said that death is Gods plan or will when at the same time we do everything in our powers while alive to avoid his plan for us the two things seem contradictory to each other.

If you genuinely wanted God to show himself to you, your actions would be consistent with this.

How is it possible to genuinely want God to show himself to you before belief ? wanting this suggests to me that i would already need to believe in his existence to be wanting such a thing from God.

Don't most people of no or little faith have their eureka moment without prayer and the want or need for God to show himself . I'm quite sure anyone who doesn't have any real faith would be more than happy to learn God exists and life is eternal , i mean who wouldn't want such a thing.

Personally speaking i have asked during my life many times for a sign of some kind or for help . I'm sure anyone without faith would also testify to that and my guess would be that the majority of those people do so in times of distress or despair. I find it hard to think that even the most sceptic person would not pray if a loved one fell ill.

I'm not suggesting God should answer those prayers in the way someone wishes them to be answered. But surely if he exists it would be a pretty good time to reveal his existence in some way to those people who are praying in what is likely the lowest moments of their lives . Even if it's only to let them have peace of mind over whatever the situation or circumstances they are praying for, and even if that prayer cant be answered.




Thanks for taking the time to read and reply Greg.

 

[Greg J.]

I agree that things like this do seem quite miraculous but it wouldn't lead me to believing in God.

I think you would have to experience the real thing a few times to understand my perspective. Thinking about it isn't the same.

Also i have often wondered how people of faith perceive medical intervention . No one in their right mind would ever tell someone not to seek medical help if they needed it and tell them if it's gods will they die there is nothing to be done for them. Let's say for example you seek medical help for a disease like cancer aren't you telling God hold on a second your plan for me is wrong. How can it be said that death is Gods plan or will when at the same time we do everything in our powers while alive to avoid his plan for us the two things contradictory to each other.

People who have decided to trust God view this issue in various ways. My perspective is that everything God made is good if received with thanksgiving. He's well aware that faith in him has been declining for a long time in industrialized countries. He still loves us, anyway, and is constantly giving us, corporately and individually, all kinds of gifts. He causes or allows it to still rain on both righteous and unrighteous people. (I realize it takes faith to see it this way.) I believe God has given us a knowledge of our own bodies as a gift. Knowledge itself is an attribute of God. Using our knowledge to benefit people is consistent with his Word.

How is it possible to genuinely want God to show himself to you before belief ? wanting this suggests to me that i would already need to believe in his existence to be wanting such a thing from God.

There's all degrees of faith; it's not just black & white. In this case, we would call it "hoping." It is totally legitimate to try to talk to God without being sure he exists; this is done with something more like "hope" than "faith."

It is profitable in perhaps an unexpected way to pray/ask God to save you "if he is real" (and keep asking). Doing it is significantly different than thinking about it. Doing it requires an act of will. It gives a person the opportunity to regularly ponder whether they really mean it or not. To be saved, one must be willing to yield control of every area of their life to God. (A form of acknowledging that God is GOD and has creator rights over you; fortunately he is a God of love.) This is something a person can orient their heart toward before believing in God. If a person can't do this, for the most part, it means they don't want to be saved in the way God said we could be. They want to be saved the way they want, thereby internally continuing the assertion that they want to be their own God, and don't want to accept the real God as he is.

Don't most people of no or little faith have their eureka moment without prayer and the want or need for God to show himself . I have never felt any need to yearn for any such revelation in my life but if it should ever occur id be very happy to accept it . I'm quite sure anyone who doesn't have any real faith would be more than happy to learn God exists and life is eternal , i mean who wouldn't want such a thing.

I don't know the distribution of when people have that moment when they really believe. I suspect that for the majority, they don't know it at that time, but only when they look back in retrospect. Coming to believe and choosing to commit to God can be a gradual process as well as a eureka moment.

Personally speaking i have asked during my life many times for a sign of some kind or for help . I'm sure anyone without faith would also testify to that and my guess would be that the majority of those people do so in times of distress or despair. I find it hard to think that even the most sceptic person would not pray if a loved one fell ill.

I'm glad to hear that. There are indeed people who would not ask God for help no matter what their pain is, as well as people who already believe in God and don't want to have anything to do with him (they will get the worst eternal punishment, not that I would say there is a "good" version).

I'm not suggesting God should answer those prayers in the way someone wishes them to be answered. But surely if he exists it would be a pretty good time to reveal his existence in some way to those people who are praying in what is likely the lowest moments of their lives . Even if it's only to let them have peace of mind over whatever the situation or circumstances they are praying for, and even if that prayer cant be answered.

The effects of sin on the world and people are far deeper than might be apparent. At this point, the only way to breach the gap is to go to him. In part the reason is because he has already revealed himself in many ways and people have chosen to reject the evidence he's already given, over and over. Interestingly, not everyone in the world is skeptical by default. There are people who believe what they are told by default. To us who are bombarded with lies constantly that seems foolish. Whether it is or not, such people can acquire faith in God a lot more quickly, and as a result have proof he is real a lot more quickly. (Faith first, proof second with God)

 

[TheUndecided]

I'm glad to hear that. There are indeed people who would not ask God for help no matter what their pain is, as well as people who already believe in God and don't want to have anything to do with him (they will get the worst eternal punishment, not that I would say there is a "good" version).

You make some very good points which are quite persuasive and gives a'lot of food for thought. But i do think anyone who is open minded to the existence of God find these bits quite unsettling or at'least how they are described . I have no issue with evil people simply dying and not ascending to a higher state or heaven and being refused eternal life , and if you think about it being refused eternal life is an eternal punishment.

I actually think that revisions to the bible are a very good thing , and how do we know that the bible it's self isn't a test for us . Couldn't it be conceivable that we are being tested to see if we separate the moral and ethical parts of the bible from the parts that are not moral and ethical.

Couldn't it not only be possible but even plausible that the bible would actually be the biggest test of all. To see if Humanity or perhaps an individual would dismiss certain teachings that they believe to be the word of God. And risk eternal punishment because of moral reasons while choosing to abide with all the morally good teachings. Wouldn't that be true enlightenment that when faced with such a consequence you would still choose to do the right thing. ? If God exists surely this is what he would desire from us, he would surely not want us to commit an action we thought to be completely unacceptable .

Anyone who has lived a decent caring life i think would be welcomed upon accepting God. I don't honestly think it would matter at what point in a persons life they found their belief and the willingness to accept him. Even if it was at the moment or threshold of death and a revelation to you at that point . People find faith at different times during their lives so i see no reason why it cant be during the final unconscious moments of existence.



Thanks once again for taking the time to read and reply Greg , it's certainly got me thinking and considering things i have never really thought about before.

 

[Greg J.]

I actually think that revisions to the bible are a very good thing , and how do we know that the bible it's self isn't a test for us . Couldn't it be conceivable that we are being tested to see if we separate the moral and ethical parts of the bible from the parts that are not moral and ethical.

The kinds of revisions that are made today to our best original language copies of the Bible are tiny tweaks, because we have had such excellent sources, and got even more as the Dead Sea Scrolls were studied (found from 1946-1956). The Bible is full of both moral and ethical considerations. There is a point for some where they have looked at all the evidence that they want to and they just have to decide whether to accept the Bible as true or not. (Billy Graham was faced with this before his first stadium-sized preaching event.)

The Bible has cross references all over the place, and testifies to its own validity, as does God (in the Bible). There are also many extra-Biblical documents that support it. It is not a stretch to say that a logical person either has reason to believe 99%+ (without knowing where the <1% is) of it or can't trust any of it (or isn't familiar enough with it to recognize they fall into one of those categories).

In my case, I accepted the God of the Bible as real from reading the Bible, knowing there were many authors across a span of 4000 years, and not being able to believe it was all the result of human effort. Based on what I knew of human nature, I saw it as impossible. The Bible is completely internally consistent to an extreme degree (seeing and accepting that is usually a long process due to the quantity of information).

The apostle Paul wrote, My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, so that your faith might not rest on men’s wisdom, but on God’s power. (1 Corinthians 2:4-5, 1984 NIV)

God still does this through people today for the same reason.

Couldn't it not only be possible but even plausible that the bible would actually be the biggest test of all. To see if Humanity or perhaps an individual would dismiss certain teachings that they believe to be the word of God. And risk eternal punishment because of moral reasons while choosing to abide with all the morally good teachings. Wouldn't that be true enlightenment that when faced with such a consequence you would still choose to do the right thing. ? If God exists surely this is what he would desire from us, he would surely not want us to commit an action we thought to be completely unacceptable .

One of the most fundamental things about God is that he LOVES us a lot, even those that are rejecting him. God is not someone who tests us like that. He is trying to save us and help us earn eternal reward. He is doing everything he can (that we morally allow him to) to save us. God only tests Christians for beneficial reasons. He commonly does it to show us more about ourselves (and it is very effective). All problems we face are due to every human that ever lived having rejected God in some fashion. The cumulative effect is that we have made ourselves very blind to what God is like or even recognizing there is a God.

Anyone who has lived a decent caring life i think would be welcomed upon accepting God. I don't honestly think it would matter at what point in a persons life they found their belief and the willingness to accept him. Even if it was at the moment or threshold of death and a revelation to you at that point . People find faith at different times during their lives so i see no reason why it cant be during the final unconscious moments of existence.

Lots of people have been saved just before they've died. God wants to save very person until salvation by faith is no longer possible.

 

[1watchman]

Hello Undecided. Allow me to respond a bit to your post ---which seems to be something of an inquiry.

Hi everyone my names Chris i was baptized as a child and went to Sunday school and church in my early years. I cant say i ever had a true belief in God and have some questions if you would please take the time to read. [It appears you are inquiring because you have at least some interest in knowing the Creator-God. That is a good beginning.]

why should a person have to believe in order to be accepted by God . Id happily accept god's existence if he revealed himself to me. If i have an obligation to God during my life he certainly has that obligation to me. Why should i blindly take the word of people telling me of his existence when we know people can be very wrong and very flawed. [This seems to be a threefold inquiry, so I will speak to each one. 1. God in fact loves ALL mankind and is ever ready to "accept" them, but all mankind does not love God ---and mostly doesn't care about God. There is the fundamental problem. The Heavenly Father created mankind to have children who would learn to love Him in return, and He gave them a free-will and much opportunity to know Him and appreciate Him (as any father would do). 2. God HAS revealed Himself so fully in all the four Gospels and throughout all of Holy Scripture, yet most souls do not read His love letter; and God has NO obligation more to put up with renegade men, yet He chooses to keep calling souls to Himself. 3. The reason you should keep seeking God is because you have not been sincerely seeking God, and only reject the invitation of many "children of God" to learn to know their Savior God; and the fact many of us Christians are "flawed" as you say, does not negate the truth of our Father.]

What about people who have lived moral lives and never committed a crime how can they be considered a sinner for not believing. Wouldn't god reveal himself to everyone in the end regardless of whether they believed or not and judge them on the lives they lived, my belief in God should be unimportant to him. What should be important to him is what sort of person i was during my lifetime. [Salvation of the soul is not about just those who "committed a crime" as you say, but ALL souls who are born with the malady of sin from the beginning of time. We all have and do commit sins by our very nature (being self-indulgent) before a Holy God who cannot look on sin, since He is fully holy (pure), and is a "consuming fire" for all that is unholy. When a father shows love and gives every good mercy and blessing for the benefit of a child, and that child demands more things and rejects the love and provisions of all life to him, the father might well stand apart and wait to see what the son will do. What do you intend to do ---hopefully not just keep making demands on your Creator and rejecting His mercies on a self-indulgent soul (as we all are).]


Also how am i meant to believe in God when even the people ordained or who believe tell me his word is so unimportant that we can decide what parts we want to believe and dismiss or change anything we don't like ? The bible as i can see evolves to conform to the society of that time and is constantly being revised. Regardless of whether or not it was originally the word of god which could very well be true , it was translated,written and is constantly revised by fallible people , after enough revision it's not even going to resemble the original teachings. It conforms to the moral compass of the day [It is not an issue of what people tell you, as you say, but what God tells you in His "Word of truth". If you would stop reading all the new versions of the Bible by those who choose to change God's holy Words, and spend time in the venerable KJV Bible and NKJV, you might see what God is trying to say to you. How much time a week do you spend reading the Word of God? Do you care what He says? Let me urge you to first just read from such as John 1; John 3; John 14, and then ask God in a humble spirit to please teach and lead you. One needs to see the Lord Jesus ---God's beloved Son, as the ONLY hope of knowing His Father (note 1 Jn. 5:10-12). Look up always, friend, for God cares always! - 1watchman


I hope my questions don't come across confrontational because they are not meant in that way as i am in no way criticizing anyone's belief.



Thanks for reading take care.

 

[juvenissun]

why should a person have to believe in order to be accepted by God . Id happily accept god's existence if he revealed himself to me. If i have an obligation to God during my life he certainly has that obligation to me. Why should i blindly take the word of people telling me of his existence when we know people can be very wrong and very flawed.

God is far far superior than us. We do not bargain with God. Otherwise, He is not qualified to be the only God. If you want a god whom you can bargain with, then you may find many of them in other religions.

He says to you: Accept me as your God.
You either say Yes, or No. There is no other answer. Some yes and some no is a bargain and is equivalent to No. You either blindly say Yes, or blindly say No. Don't worry about the trustworthy of the Scripture yet. Before you become a Bible scholar, any decision (yes or no) you made is blind.

Once you answered Yes , then you start to study the Scripture. It will not work if you reverse the procedure.