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Some people wake up before Death.

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Johnboy60

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Hi, I had a uncle that said I cann't wait till I go to Hell. And would go around and tell his friends and family this. He loved to tell people he couldn't wait till he went to Hell. Well one day he found out he had real bad lung cancer and had only 6 months to live. He changed overnight his thinking. He's at deaths door. He was saved by Jesus before Death. He was here one day on earth and gone the nexted.


Robert.
 

inkidinkido

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Praise God.

Many people would scoff at this and say that they are not so weak and childish as to do this - they are so confident and boastful.

But I believe that these testimonies are the very heart of evangelism - nothing could be more legitimate.

There is no sermon more irritating or more absolutely inciteful to the atheist than that of the deathbed conversion, not one more moving to the ready, nor one more urgent for the athest when he or she is all alone, removed from the academic circle or community of support through which arrogance is reinforced and propagated.

We are not ultimately reasonable beings, not primarily a thinking thing. The fallen human creature, when all is said and done, is fragile, momentary, wicked, is afraid to be alone, and is terrified of death.

Apart from the community of reinforcement of our arrogance and prideful endeavours, we are truly pitiable creatures in desperate need of God.

There is nothing more enraging to the atheist than this.
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Robert, I believe that if your uncle believed upon the Lord Jesus, he is now in paradise with the King of Kings. If he accepted Christ as Savior, the Holy Ghost did indwell him - that's what being reborn (regenerated) is - there is no separate step. And water baptism is not necessary for salvation - it is an outward sign of obedience.
 
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Beoga

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Aduro Amnis said:
So He accepted Christ as his Savior, Repented, Was baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost all before he died?

I don't sound to be insensitive but, alas if you die its your fault if your not saved.

It sounds like Christ saved them.
Have you heard the story about the thief that died on the cross next to Jesus. Yeah, great story. He recieved Christ as Lord before he died. Wasn't baptized or didn't go through in other "Christian" rituals, yet what happened you ask? Did he go to hell? Nope he whent to paradise to be with Christ.
 
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EdmundBlackadderTheThird

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Paradise in that reference is not Heaven. He went to the same place that everyone else went, and indeed Christ went, when they died. He (Christ) returned victorious with the keys to hell and death. Christ did not ascend to Heaven until after being raised from the dead. The thief is oft used as an example of deathbed conversion to prove salvation but it is not an example of such. It is an example of Christ forgiving sins, yes, but not of Christian salvation. This salvation was not available to anyone until Christ died and rose again.
 
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welshchick

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That's really a great testimony :)

I have friends who are atheists (some of them believe there is a God, but that's as far as it goes) and they say that they dont care if they go to Hell, cos at least they'd be in Hell with all their friends.

I've told them that you won't have any friendship in Hell, because friendship is a gift of God, and God won't have anything to do with Hell in the end days. Hell will be a miserable and totally awful place. But they won't believe me. it's so sad :(
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Aduro Amnis said:
So He accepted Christ as his Savior, Repented, Was baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost all before he died?

I don't sound to be insensitive but, alas if you die its your fault if your not saved.
Aduro,
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." If baptism is a necessary component for salvation then we are saying that Christ's work on the cross is not enough. We need to add something that we do (baptism) to what He did in order to make salvation complete. To say what God did is not enough, not complete, is against everything taught in Scripture. Other Scriptures confirm this:

Romans 10:9-10 "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

1 Peter 1:18-19 "Knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ."(If Christ's blood redeems us, then baptism cannot earn that which has already been purchased.)

I've got a question for you - if you decide to follow Jesus and accept hims as Lord and Savior, but are murdered on the way to church to get baptised, are you going to go to hell? If you say yes, why? It is by grace that we are saved, not by any work we do, or lack thereof, so why would the failure to be baptised, after you've made a concious decision to accept the Lord as Savior, keep you out of heaven.

I've got some good reading for you. Please read the following:

http://www.carm.org/oneness/onenessbaptism.htm
 
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inkidinkido

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"It is by grace that we are saved, not by any work we do, or lack thereof, so why would the failure to be baptised, after you've made a concious decision to accept the Lord as Savior, keep you out of heaven."

But Arduro can always reply, "Then he or she was never saved at all." That is, those who will be saved are only those (and a subset of those, at that) who will be baptised. Because this person died on the way to be baptised, we know that he or she was not really saved.

Person A may believe that he or she is saved, but if the future-tense statement, "person x will be baptized" is false, then A is not really saved; A must be either self-deceived, or lying to us.

You see, it is not because A is baptised that he or she is saved; he or she is not saved because of the act of baptism; baptism has no salvific effect. No, it just happens that as a blunt, matter of fact, God has only elected to salvation those for whom the future tense statement is true, "person x will be baptized." We don't need to know why God made this decision, or whether God has any reason at all for having made this decision - it is just the way things are. Anyone else who thinks they are saved are either self-deceived or lying to us.

Of course this fits perfectly with the claim that one can never know whether he or she is saved. But even if it is possible to know for certain that we are saved, it could always be the case that we are merely self-deceived into believing that we know we are saved when in fact we are not.

The question then really just becomes academic.

I don't believe there is any effective counter to this other than to show that the passages in question (especially John 3:5) are somehow in fact not meant to indicate "those who are saved are those for whom it is true: person x will be baptized." Appealing to intuition about what God "would" or "should" do "because he is loving" will get you no where, because intution is a faulty guide to understanding God's righteous requirement.

But essentially what I am saying is that the link you have provided fails to demonstrate that baptism is not required. Even the premise, for example, "we know we are saved by faith alone," is completely irrelevant, because the baptism-only proponent does not claim that baptism has salvific effect; no, it just happens that as a matter of fact, those who will be saved are only those who will be baptized - it is just the same as if it were the case, as a blunt, matter of fact, God had decided to elect only those for whom the future-tense statement is true, "person x will click his or her heels together three times." Clicking one's heels together has no salvific effect.

Unless John 3:5 does not refer to baptism, the link provided is ineffectual. The argument that John 3:5 does not refer to baptism seemed very weak.

Personally, I hope that baptism is not required for salvation, but that is little consolation if it is in fact required.

I'd like to be wrong; I have never been baptized. If you are concerned about it, technically you should be able to baptize yourself in your bathtub.
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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Some of our basic beliefs do not match, so we won't be in agreement on some of the deeper issues. For one, I believe that when the Lord gives salvation, a person can be sure of it. Otherwise, it becomes "Well, I believe in the Lord Jesus and his sacrificial death, but I better be an awfully good Christian so that I am one of the ones who is accepted", then the person becomes enslaved to the bondage of the law, which is quite contrary to the message of the Gospel and the wonder-working power of the cross. Legalism must be avoided at all costs, and the idea that someone who believes and follows the Lord Jesus and yet can't be sure of his salvation fosters the desire to "do this and do that in order to gain the Lord's acceptance".

The idea that a man cannot be sure of his salvation also dilutes the truths of regeneration (rebirth), the wonderous power of the blood that covers our sin, the fact that Christ's righteousness is bestowed upon the Christian, and the fact that the word says Christians already have (not will have) victory in Jesus, and that Christians alreday have (not will have) all they need in Christ Jesus. If a person can not be sure fo his own salvation, then he can place no stock in the idea that any of these truths apply to him. And if a Christian can't trust in these truths, where is his power for living? Answer: In his own flesh, and his ability to "do everything he can do (in his own power) to keep the faith. What a horrible way of life - it isn't much different than those who labored under the law, if any at all. I would much rather place my faith in Christ's righteousness bestowed upon me than in my own fleshly works.

That a person can't be sure of his salvation is 180 degrees contrary to the Gospel of Grace in my opinion. Grace must win out in our Christianity. Legalism only leads to failure and disappointment. I know that, I lived it for the first 12 years of my 24 year Christian walk.

We are not to approach God in a spirit of fear of the unknown, but in a spirit of boldness and in anticipation that He keeps his promises and that he loves His children.
 
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Aduro Amnis said:
So He accepted Christ as his Savior, Repented, Was baptized in Jesus name, and received the Holy Ghost all before he died?

I don't sound to be insensitive but, alas if you die its your fault if your not saved.
:rolleyes:

God offers the gift of salvation. Men build rules to make it hard to attain...

Im not saying that being baptized isnt important... but is the act of baptist what saves you? I think not...
 
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Slave2SinNoMore

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inkidinkido said:
the baptism-only proponent does not claim that baptism has salvific effect; no, it just happens that as a matter of fact, those who will be saved are only those who will be baptized - it is just the same as if it were the case, as a blunt, matter of fact, God had decided to elect only those for whom the future-tense statement is true, "person x will click his or her heels together three times." Clicking one's heels together has no salvific effect.
I understand what you're saying, but to me this idea is not plausible at all. The ultimate effect of saying this is that last minute conversions, and deathbed conversions are automatically excluded from being effective, if that person has no way to be baptised in water before death. It makes no sense to me whatsoever to think that in the 2000 years since the death of Christ, that not one person has had a last minute or deathbed conversion.
 
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flesh99 said:
Paradise in that reference is not Heaven. He went to the same place that everyone else went, and indeed Christ went, when they died. He (Christ) returned victorious with the keys to hell and death. Christ did not ascend to Heaven until after being raised from the dead. The thief is oft used as an example of deathbed conversion to prove salvation but it is not an example of such. It is an example of Christ forgiving sins, yes, but not of Christian salvation. This salvation was not available to anyone until Christ died and rose again.
So you are saying that when God said to teh theif that "you will be with me" that he was cast into hell? I dont buy that Im sorry...
Remeber, Christ had all the authority of God to grant forgivness. He might not have said the sinners prayer... but he believed and confessed with his mouth... the two stipulations.
Again, Christ had full authority.. he told the woman at the well that her sins were forgiven... He is above the law that he put in place.

 
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Slave2SinNoMore said:
Aduro,
Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast." If baptism is a necessary component for salvation then we are saying that Christ's work on the cross is not enough. We need to add something that we do (baptism) to what He did in order to make salvation complete. To say what God did is not enough, not complete, is against everything taught in Scripture. Other Scriptures confirm this:
I couldnt have said it any better then that
 
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So baptism is not exclusive from the salvation expereince.. at least according to a Theologian named Stott... Another named Torrey said that the two are seperate... I think Stotts is much more biblical though

 
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