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Some Papal Questions

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I hope this is the right forum to ask, I have are two questions in regards to Popes and Vatican laws.

1) Roman Catholic preists haven't always had to remain celibant, there were times when they could marry. Celibacy was introduced by a Pope around the 13th or 14th centuries.

2) Same for eating fish on Fridays, I have heard it was introduced by a Pope to help an ailing Italian fishing industry.

Does anyone know if these are true or not ? Names, dates ?

Thanks.
 

pax

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Originally posted by Tinman
1) Roman Catholic preists haven't always had to remain celibant, there were times when they could marry. Celibacy was introduced by a Pope around the 13th or 14th centuries.

Priestly celibacy is a discipline of the Church that may be freely changed.  Throughout the early centuries many Bishops, Priests, and even Popes have been married.  In the Easter rites of Catholicism and in Eastern Orthodoxy married men may still become priests, but Bishops must be celibates.

2) Same for eating fish on Fridays, I have heard it was introduced by a Pope to help an ailing Italian fishing industry.


The purpose of refraining from eating meat on Fridays (abstinence) is penance.  I'm not sure why the Roman Rite allows fish, but I am almost positive the concept of abstinence on Fridays as a way of penance predate the middle ages (although until then it may not have been required).  In the Eastern Rites and in Orthodoxy I think fish is forbidden with other meats.
 
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Wolseley

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I hope this is the right forum to ask, I have are two questions in regards to Popes and Vatican laws.

1) Roman Catholic preists haven't always had to remain celibant, there were times when they could marry. Celibacy was introduced by a Pope around the 13th or 14th centuries.
Celibacy was strongly advocated by Paul in 1 Corinthians 7, so it can hardly be said that the Catholic Church "invented" it. As a Church discipline, however, it was first imposed in Spain by the local Council of Elvira in 306 AD, and Church-wide by the 2nd Lateran Council in 1139 AD.

A goodly part of the reason it became such an issue was to prevent the practice of primogeniture in the Church. (Primogeniture is when the oldest son inherits his father's business, and in the case of a priest, this meant the parish church.) The Church recognized that simply because somebody was the son of a priest, that didn't automatically mean that the son was suitable to be a priest himself, so this discipline was imposed to prevent clergy from producing children. There was also the fact that the lands, buildings, moneys, etc. that belonged to the Church needed to stay with the Church, because they belonged to the entire people of God as a whole, and not be inherited by the children of clergy---so celibacy was also a way of maintaining stability and unity within the structure of the Medieval Church.
2) Same for eating fish on Fridays, I have heard it was introduced by a Pope to help an ailing Italian fishing industry.
You heard an ancient anti-Catholic canard that goes back to the 17th century. Meat was indeed forbidden on Fridays, but it had nothing to do with any Pope helping out the European fishing industry; since meat was out, fish merely became the permitted food by default.

Abstinence from meat on Fridays is mentioned as far back as Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian (both late 2nd century). It was strongly encouraged by the Council of Toledo in the 5th century, by Pope Nicholas I in the 9th century, and Pope Innocent III in the 12th. The practice itself was tied in with the development of the Lenten fast, which slowly spread throughout the Church after the late 2nd century; certain foods were to be abstained from, usually meat, fowl, butter, eggs, milk, and cheese. Pope Alexander VII removed the ban on eggs, butter, milk, and cheese in 1666, thus reducing the abstinence to meat and fowl. Fridays were seen as penitential days, since Christ was crucified on a Friday, and meat was not to be indulged in. Fish was permitted, but since there was no such thing as refrigeration or rapid transport, only the people living near the coast or close to lakes or streams would have access to marine products.

Since the 2nd Vatican Council, meatless days have been limited to Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and all Fridays during Lent.
 
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I hadn't viewed the One bread, One Body forum before, sorry if I posted questions all ready answered, but thanks for answering them anyway.

I kind of figured Q2: was a bit of an urban myth, but I've heard it from several people including a friend of mine who used to teach religion in a Catholic school !

  
 
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panterapat

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FYI- A common misunderstanding about not eating meat on Fridays:

This discipline was removed in the 1960's. However, all that was removed was the particular sacrifice. The Church realized that it was no longer a sacrifice to not eat meat on Fridays for we have Red Lobster and many other choices beyond eating meat. The purpose of not eating meat was to offer a sacrifice and dicipline our body as a way of strengthening our spirit.

It is still required that Catholics offer a sacrifice on Friday- but now it is a sacrifice of our own choosing. When the Church law concerning meat was lifted, many people assumed that everything concerning this practice was lifted. Not so!

Each Friday, Catholics should choose a sacrifice, and offer this sacrifice up in union with Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross.

In Christ, Patrick
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by panterapat
FYI- A common misunderstanding about not eating meat on Fridays:

This discipline was removed in the 1960's. However, all that was removed was the particular sacrifice. The Church realized that it was no longer a sacrifice to not eat meat on Fridays for we have Red Lobster and many other choices beyond eating meat. The purpose of not eating meat was to offer a sacrifice and dicipline our body as a way of strengthening our spirit.

It is still required that Catholics offer a sacrifice on Friday- but now it is a sacrifice of our own choosing. When the Church law concerning meat was lifted, many people assumed that everything concerning this practice was lifted. Not so!

Each Friday, Catholics should choose a sacrifice, and offer this sacrifice up in union with Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross.

I don't understand this "sacrifice" thing. How can you add to Christ's sacrifice? That doesn't make sense to me. :scratch:
 
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isshinwhat

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Romans15:15-16

But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Colossians 1:24-25

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known

2 Corinthians 1:5

For as we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too.

Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are intimately joined with Christ in the family of God. So much so, in fact, that Paul could write "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together" (1 Cor. 12:26). This unity which we share in is not just theology, but reality. All of the things that we suffer, all of the sacrifices that we make to follow Christ are made pleasing to God through the power of the Holy Spirit. At Mass, especially, we participate in this reality through the Most Holy Eucharist. We sacramentally join ourselves to Christ in common union. What we join with Him is joined with His sacrifice, and is made Holy by it. We "complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" by sending up the only thing Christ could not send to the Father at Calvary, our very selves and all that we do to follow Him. We and all that we do are now "acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."

God Bless,

Neal
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Through the power of the Holy Spirit we are intimately joined with Christ in the family of God. So much so, in fact, that Paul could write "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together" (1 Cor. 12:26). This unity which we share in is not just theology, but reality. All of the things that we suffer, all of the sacrifices that we make to follow Christ are made pleasing to God through the power of the Holy Spirit. At Mass, especially, we participate in this reality through the Most Holy Eucharist. We sacramentally join ourselves to Christ in common union. What we join with Him is joined with His sacrifice, and is made Holy by it. We "complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions" by sending up the only thing Christ could not send to the Father at Calvary, our very selves and all that we do to follow Him. We and all that we do are now "acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit."

Ok, I won't hijack the thread anymore... :D
 
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Caedmon

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Originally posted by panterapat
This discipline was removed in the 1960's. However, all that was removed was the particular sacrifice. The Church realized that it was no longer a sacrifice to not eat meat on Fridays for we have Red Lobster and many other choices beyond eating meat. The purpose of not eating meat was to offer a sacrifice and dicipline our body as a way of strengthening our spirit.

It is still required that Catholics offer a sacrifice on Friday- but now it is a sacrifice of our own choosing.

So could one abstain from beef, poultry, pork, fish, and egg,(meat as I know it) making it a worthy sacrifice?
 
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