I have to admit I have not been able to find one argument or verse that states that Christ's salvation is anything but a finished work- nor did I expect to. Everything you wrote seems Biblical and clear. But can't it be a finished work even if it is not accepted by all who it was done for?
I am sorry but it just can’t be. If the sinner has to accept it then the sinner finishes the work of atonement by his acceptance. if One simple and minute thing is left for the sinner to do then none would be saved. We will not come to Christ that we might have life. We think we are fine the way we are.
What about the non-elect, those created for eternal damnation? This all sounds beautiful, and it would be if we were talking about this for people who truly chose to be either elect or non-elect, but my election comes at the cost of so many going to hell through no fault of their own. In what sense can Christ have been said to have loved the world? It also means that God just randomly chose me, that there was nothing about me that led Him to love me. I happened to get the right number in the lottery and that's all. I realize I didn't do anything to earn His choice or His love, but I'd like to think it was more then just a chance passing over or picking. I'd like to think that someone loves me for who I am.
This paragraph tells me a great deal. Is this what you have been taught? I am not sure where to start. First let me be clear: I am not trying to make a Calvinist out of you. If I did so all that I would be doing is get you to change your theology but will have done your soul no real good. I am interested in showing you the things of Christ not the theological concepts of Calvinism.
The first thing you need to see is who God is. He is not just the Creator but the King who rules with authority and power. He is supreme, self sufficient, sovereign and self satisfied. Here is a link to a couple of books that you should probably read.
The Attributes of God
https://www.eternallifeministries.org/awp_sov.pdf
You also need to find out who man is. Once you see who God is in truth then you will see that man is a worm, maggot, and drink iniquity like water. Please read Isa. 40:12-26.
Isaiah 40:12-26 (KJV) 12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance? 13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counsellor hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and [who] instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding? 15 Behold, the nations [are] as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing. 16 And Lebanon [is] not sufficient to burn, nor the beasts thereof sufficient for a burnt offering. 17 All nations before him [are] as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity. 18 To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him? 19 The workman melteth a graven image, and the goldsmith spreadeth it over with gold, and casteth silver chains. 20 He that [is] so impoverished that he hath no oblation chooseth a tree [that] will not rot; he seeketh unto him a cunning workman to prepare a graven image, [that] shall not be moved. 21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth? 22 [It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in: 23 That bringeth the princes to nothing; he maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. 24 Yea, they shall not be planted; yea, they shall not be sown: yea, their stock shall not take root in the earth: and he shall also blow upon them, and they shall wither, and the whirlwind shall take them away as stubble. 25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One. 26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth.
Man is as the dust that they didn’t even bother to brush off because it didn’t make a difference in the scales. They are as nothing compared to God. Like the grasshoppers that infest the field.
Now look at Dan.4:33-36:
Daniel 4:33-35 (KJV) 33 The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' [feathers], and his nails like birds' [claws]. 34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom [is] from generation to generation: 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Your comments about people going to Hell through no fault of their own and being created for damnation are way off. If you understood that man not only is a sinner in Adam but one in practice because of his depraved will and deserves all that eternal damnation brings you couldn’t say such a thing. Moreover your idea that the Lord saw something in you to draw His love speaks volumes about ill informed you are. You have been taught to think highly of man and very lowly of God. We will work to make you better informed.
That being said, I can see the strong Biblical case for limited atonement. And I can see the practical problem unlimited atonement leaves: in what sense did Christ's sacrifice actually accomplish what it was meant to do. I have not found any verses that state that Christ's atonement is applied upon believing. I've found "repent and believe", "repent and be baptized", "believe and be saved", but nothing about Christ's atonement being kind of latent until the person believes.
I have found verses that seem to make a point of stating that Christ's death was for all, believers and unbelievers.
1 Timothy 4:10—"For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the
Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."
2 Peter 3:9- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us,
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.(2 Corinthians 5:14-15)
I Timothy is the one that seems the most compelling to me. But I'm really not trying to throw more Bible verses into the equation- that's not a good tactic. I'm just trying to talk out my thoughts, I guess. I've read a couple of books on this now and lots of articles, and I would have never thought the Calvinistic case was so Biblically strong. You guys have been able to explain your point of view on this far better then I have mine. This is probably the weakest argument I've ever given for anything.
But I find it repulsive. Just the unconditional election. If people got to choose, then I would even be fine with limited atonement. But the idea that people are created without their will, passed over without their choice or ability, and damned without their choice or ability; that goes against everything I've ever believed about God, who desires that none perish.
Noneof the conditions that you speak of actually occur or even exists. Man is not created without a choice. God made Adam and He put him in the Garden with one simple rule: don’t eat of the fruit of the tree off knowledge of good and evil. God entered into a covenant with Adam. Now Adam was our Federal head as in our representative head a type of Christ. Whatever he did was counted as though we did it in him. Now we read in 2Tim. 2:14 that Adam wasn’t deceived. It is therefore a simple conclusion that Adam took of the fruit knowing full well what would happen. When he did we sinned in him and the Fall affected us all. But because we are children of Adam we are born with a nature that loves sin. That is why we are without ability to come to Christ. But the Bible doesn’t stress our inability but our wicked will. The reprobate wouldn’t come if he could. We love our sin too much to come to Christ. Oh we will come to religion but not to Christ. We will not bow before Him and take our place in the dust at His feet. Our will is bent to evil and our depraved minds conjure up a god that we can worship. We will not worship the one true God of the Bible. Therefore it isn’t that man has no choice but that he chooses sin over salvation. I know of men who went to church and heard the Gospel of the free and sovereign grace of God in Christ Jesus the Lord every time. They sat and counted the tiles in the ceiling and were satisfied that they had fulfilled their duty to worship God. But one day the Gospel preached I the power of God reached their hearts and they actually heard the Gospel. That is what happens when a chosen sinner finds his need of Christ by the new birth. The rest aren’t condemned because they weren’t of the elect but because they are sinners without Christ. God’s electing love is absolutely amazing because He didn’t have to save any of us. But He wrapped up His glory in the salvation of chosen sinners in Christ Jesus the Lord.
I'm not trying to sound argumentative, and I've been poorly wording it when I've tried to explain it, but I have to admit to not understanding this. I don't understand why Christ winning a salvation that only becomes applicable on our acceptance of it, on our repentance, means that nothing got accomplished and His death means nothing. Having bought our salvation with His blood, it is certainly up to Him to decide under which criteria it's given to the human race. Calvinists say it's the elect, and Arminians say the repentant. If I have a million dollars which I will give to anyone who asks, but they have to ask, and they don't, it doesn't mean I have any less money or any less ability to give it.
If you have a million dollars to give away is it not your right to give it to whom you will and withhold it from whom you will? None deserve it plus everyone hates you and does all they can to destroy you. That would be the analogy that fits. Remember the Gospel isn’t God offers but God gives salvation by grace. An offer makes man the one who is in control and God must wait on man to do his part. But the true Gospel preaches a crucified Christ that has actually saved sinners. It is good news because it tells of a Savior that did what He set out to do. He saved sinners. If you can believe and look to Him alone for all that is both required and freely given then you are a saved sinner. God has set His electing love on you.
If the idea is that He had to have actually completed His work in some for it to be achieved, wouldn't that include sanctification as well? Wouldn't a fully complete work be from regeneration to sanctification. After all, Romans 8: 30 says "And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Or is simply the promise of final perseverance- that the elect cannot lose their salvation- considered complete?
it does include sanctification. This is getting far too long and I apologize.