Some help, please

[Michali]

Going by the thousands of laws the Bible institutes is a needless hassle.

Just let me say that though they are not necessary, they are "beneficial".

 

[Mike Flynn]

Thanks in advance.

Arnold_Philips: (original post)

Here are a couple of key things to keep in mind when you discuss with your Christian friends:

1. The origins of life, the age of the earth, the literal vs. historical, etc...none of these things have *anything* to do with Christian salvation. Salvation begins and ends with accepting Christ in a spirit of humbleness and humility, and letting God redeem you through that connection.

2. Agree to disagree. Since these are not salvation issues, then we shouldn't trip each other up in the debate. Some conservative Christians find it too hard to accept old earth and evolution...thats fine...don't trip them up with your arguments. At the same time, remind them that they shouldn't trip you up with their notions about literal interpretations of scripture. In short, if the debate is hurting someone's ability to accept Christ...don't bother with the debate.

A couple of other points.

-You can believe in evolution and still believe that 'God did it'....so in a way, theistic evolutionists still adhere to 'creationism'.

-The fall: Don't be so quick to discard this notion because there is some profound theology in it. Think of it like this: throughout history every man is Adam (including you and me), and every woman is eve...the fall is about the choices we make with respect to our relationship with God. We are *still making* the same choices that are described in Genesis, and thats why we suffer the same consequences as Adam and Eve.

My point is this: you don't have to toss out any *theology* when you choose not to subscribe to the literal interpretation of Genesis.

About homosexuality: Don't let *anyone* judge you based on who you are or what you do. The Bible stands quite firmly against judgement. Christ has a heart for everyone and accepts everyone who knocks at the door...you don't have to do *anything* but accept Christ to call yourself a Christian.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

As for being gay... Fundamentalism, creationism, and anti homosexuality are usually very closely related concepts. If they felt the need to call an emergency meeting to discuss your support of evolution then you might want to wait for the dust to settle from this before coming out. Timing is everything, it's usually best to give them a little time to mentally recover from something that they percieve as a catastrophe.

As for the actual talk with them... I doubt they're well versed in the scientific aspect of the topic, so explaining data will fall on deaf ears or simply go over their head. Probabbly best to avoid an attempt at making a logical arguement like that, a common sense approach would be recieved better. As others have said, it's not a salvation issue. Does supporting evolution make you evil? No. Does supporting evolution make you eat babies? No. Nothing about evolution is a sin. It does not deny that God created, it merely explains how.

As an atheist and wannabe scientist I scoff at the idea of a literal Genesis,it is completely false and good for nothing. However if Genesis is viewed as a parable or simplified explanation for a backwards people however many thousands of years ago, it can actually make some sense. Viewed in this way it agrees with what we see around us, it acknowledges God's creation for what it is. Also it gives some insight into the human psyche. The saying "We're all sinners" is best illustrated by Genesis. A parable saying that God created the world and that people are sinners by nature makes much more sense than a talking snake and magical fruit.


BTW if they mention Dr. Dino (Kent Hovind), make sure to give an arrogent "pfft!" for me >=D

 

[Godzman]

Why don't you give us some examples, then? I think you've got your history mixed up.

Ironically, a quick look at church history will tell you that the *reverse* is clearly true.

It has *consistently* been the binding literalists who have used the Bible to justify some of the *darkest chapters* in human history. Is this the tradition that you are defending? Read your Bible...how does Jesus respond to the pharisees, staunch literalists in their day? Is binding literalism today any different?

Just take an objective look at the fruits of your efforts. By binding Christians to literal interpretations you would cause huge numbers of people who may otherwise have accepted Christ to stumble. Is that good fruit?

The metaphorical interpretation allows non-Christians to enter the faith without attaching strings to the science. Science is *not* sinful. Throwing down stumbling blocks in front of a brother or sister certainly is.

I am not accusing you of anything personally Godzman...you clearly have your convictions and I respect that. I'm just not sure why you think its so important to defend literalism...it just doesn't seem to bear any good fruit.

If it is not literal, then the sacrifice on the cross is false, and if it is false, then why do I have the need to be forgiven, why do I sin, why do I want to do evil, but something keeps pulling at me. Science has never spoken to me, but God has through his word. Which I take literally, just look at the beliefs of Origien and you will see the mistakes in having mostly allegorical beliefs

To compromise what God has spoken to us as truth, would be to say that God can lie, and I don't believe that.

Now I do believe our interpertation can be wrong, but what hope do we have to offer the world, if our faith is based on a book with a whole lot of mumbo jumbo. And nothing that is truly literal

 

[Mike Flynn]

If it is not literal, then the sacrifice on the cross is false, and if it is false, then why do I have the need to be forgiven, why do I sin, why do I want to do evil, but something keeps pulling at me. Science has never spoken to me, but God has through his word. Which I take literally, just look at the beliefs of Origien and you will see the mistakes in having mostly allegorical beliefs

First, no-one is saying that the whole Bible is not historical. Rather, it seems clear that some elements are historical while others are metaphorical. Christ, for example, *must* not be considered a metaphorical character.

You seem to think that if Genesis is not historical, then all of scripture is up for grabs. No-one is saying that. Genesis tells us something about ourselves, it tells about our identity and our connection with God and how we broke that connection. It tells us why we tend toward sin, and Christ tells us how to break the cycle and come back to God. Doesn't that sound right to you?

Genesis being metaphorical does not change the *meaning* of it. It could just be the language that God chose so that *everyone, everywhere, at any time* could connect with it and understand it.

To compromise what God has spoken to us as truth, would be to say that God can lie, and I don't believe that.

Now I do believe our interpertation can be wrong, but what hope do we have to offer the world, if our faith is based on a book with a whole lot of mumbo jumbo. And nothing that is truly literal

Do you consider parables a *lie*? Is a story a *lie* because it does not refer to real people? The sad truth is that for many, the adherence to your literal interpretation of the Bible makes Christianity look like a whole lot of mumbo jumbo (not to mention full of contradictions that you don't seem to realize).

If you don't want to believe me take it from Jesus:

First lets take a look at God's word as communicated to the writers of Exodus:

Exodus 21:23
"But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

And now straight from Jesus.

Matthew 5:38
"You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."

Isn't Jesus contradicting His own word here? Is he saying that the original scripture is a *lie*? Not at all. He is pointing out that by adhering to the *letter* of the law, they completely missed the *spirit* of that law.

If you want to bind every Christian to a literal interpretation then I believe that you may also be missing the point.

 

[Arikay]

Godz: Im curious,
do you believe god created the universe or not?

Do you believe god can lie?

What if the universe tells us that genesis is not literal?

Is the universe not of god?
Did god lie to us in the universe?
Did god lie to us in the bible?
Or could you be wrong about how to interpret genesis?

 

[wblastyn]

In my experience with fundamentalist Christians, they have not been able to admit that there can be any midway point between full blown 7 day creationism and randomly driven evolution. I believe that the evolutionary process occurred, took a long long time, but was directed by God. In other words, these "random mutations" were not random at all. However my evangelical father still regards me as an "evolutionist" and is trying to get me to watch some video...I will watch it but I do not think it will change my mind.


As far as the Fall...if you do not believe that man is born a sinner, what did Jesus Christ die for? Is Genesis 3 historically true in every detail? Maybe, but I do not think it matters, what matters is the spiritual truth that men have fallen from grace, as Paul says "we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Evolution is just evolution, science can't tell if it's driven by God or not.

Evolution is not entirely random since it works via natural selection/

 

[wblastyn]

Yesterday I met with by Bible study and we got around to the topic of original sin. I eventually just said, "I'm sorry. I don't believe in Adam and Eve." This guy, JD, looked at me and said, "You don't believe in evolution, do you?" He said "evolution" like a child whispering a bad word. Of course I answered 'yes.' Some of them looked at me with great disbelief. (Heaven knows how they'll react when I tell them I gay.)

But anyway, a couple of them wanted to talk tomorrow, and what I request from you, oh gracious CF posters, is a basic rundown of why I don't believe in creationism or original sin. I guess what I want is a better way to firmly state my position, because I fumble over words easily. I don't consider myself at all worthy of this debate (for one, I am not as knowledgable to keep up, and to me, it just doesn't seem important as it has no bearing on salvation), so I just needed some quick facts. Basically, I want to tell them in an informed manner that I am a Christian that doesn't believe in The Fall or Creationism, and that the two do not contradict.

Thanks in advance.

Oh dear, I hope they don't force you to watch tapes from Hovind lol.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Oh dear, I hope they don't force you to watch tapes from Hovind lol.

I do believe that would violate the 8th Amendment... and probably the Geneva Convention.

If being force-fed Hovind's swill isn't "Cruel and Unusual" punishment, I dunno what is...

 

[Godzman]

Godz: Im curious,
do you believe god created the universe or not?

God created the universe (IMHO: the earth is millions if not billions of years old, and the two creation stories are either dealing with specifics are at different times.)

Do you believe god can lie?

No God does not lie, but not being specific is not lying

What if the universe tells us that genesis is not literal?

the universe does not tell us that, Genesis is more then creation, is Abraham not real either, to say the Genesis is not literal, you would need to explain

Is the universe not of god?

of course it is of God

Did god lie to us in the universe?

God does not lie to us in the universe

Did god lie to us in the bible?

God did not lie in the bible

Or could you be wrong about how to interpret genesis?

of course I could be wrong, my view isn't mainstream, so I could very well be wrong, but the bible is a literal book, with figurative language

 

[LorentzHA]

Arnold-Best wishes with all of this. You did not mention how strong your bond is to that church??, you may find you have to switch churches. I had to leave a Church of Christ I was attending, here in Texas. If you believed different then you simply, did not believe in God.

You cannot explain science to people that have no foundation in it-especially if they willt urn a deaf ear to what you have to say. Right now they are equating evolution with atheism. They really have no interest in listening to your explanation nor do they have an interest in learning more about the subject. The meeting is to get you to acknowledge this type of thinking is "not of God". They will want you to admit you were confused... then they will most likely give you a big hug and tell you, "If we do not stand strong the 'Devil'(which them means knowledge) can get us to think all sorts of nonsense." They are not calling a meeting so you can educate them with factual information. Good luck and if you don't mind-let us know how it goes.

 

[LorentzHA]

Yeah.. and about your homosexuality- Unless you feel the pressing need to tell them, I would hold that thought. They will not understand. You can tell the 100 times over that you were born like that and they will tell you it IS your choice. I watched this happen to a young man at the church I went to. After he told them they treated him like a Leper. I and my husband were one of the FEW who spoke to him...I thought this was ODD for people who followed the teaching of Jesus. They were not so much about love and Mercy but very legalistic and RULE oriented....almost like living in the old testament, while giving themselves the title of "Christian"...not sure what part of the country you live in-but please BE CAREFUL, with whom you tell (church, nor the people who comprise it is no guarentee of a safe harbor)...hate crimes are alive and well!

 

[lucaspa]

well that desire is there, duh.

So you agree that the desire does not come from God.

But anyway, you are thinking I agree with YEC on everything, well I don't and I am not a YEC, but they are right to take the bible literal and not to make it allegorical because allegory can be used to justify all kinds of horrendus things

I pointed out above that YECs don't take the Bible literally. No YEC I know takes Luke 2:1 literally. I have met one that tried to bluff his way thru that, but in the end he didn't think ALL the world was enrolled. He took extrabiblical knowledge to tell him that this passage was non-literal. Let's not use the word "allegorical", OK? That has a more specific definition than simply non-literal.

What we are arguing about is whether Genesis 1-8 is literal. The textual evidence and the evidence in God's Creation says it is not.

I have yet to see ANY idea that can't be misused to justify horrendous things. Hitler used creationism to justify the Holocaust. He also used evolution to justify the Holocaust.

As JetBlack noted, there are criteria in the Bible to tell you if the Bible is being misused.

 

[ThePhoenix]

You know what? The people who are quote mining sources (like the bible) for justification don't really care if it's allegorical or literal. THEY'RE LOOKING FOR JUSTIFICATION, NOT GUIDEANCE. Since they're misusing the bible in the first place, by looking for God to tell them what they think they know instead of looking for God's message then it doesn't matter whether the passages are literal or allegorical - they're not following God.

 

[Mike Flynn]

replaced post

 

[Mike Flynn]

You know what? The people who are quote mining sources (like the bible) for justification don't really care if it's allegorical or literal. THEY'RE LOOKING FOR JUSTIFICATION, NOT GUIDEANCE. Since they're misusing the bible in the first place, by looking for God to tell them what they think they know instead of looking for God's message then it doesn't matter whether the passages are literal or allegorical - they're not following God.

So when people quote the Bible to clarify theology as they understand it, then they are not following God?

LOL. Someone should tell this to every pastor, priest, and minister who quotes scripture during a sermon. Who knew they were not following God because they are 'quote mining'.

Sorry, ThePhoenix, what you are saying here is doesn't make any sense. How can you tell that people who quote the Bible here are not looking to God as well?

 

[Michali]

Yeah.. and about your homosexuality- Unless you feel the pressing need to tell them, I would hold that thought. They will not understand. You can tell the 100 times over that you were born like that and they will tell you it IS your choice. I watched this happen to a young man at the church I went to. After he told them they treated him like a Leper. I and my husband were one of the FEW who spoke to him...I thought this was ODD for people who followed the teaching of Jesus. They were not so much about love and Mercy but very legalistic and RULE oriented....almost like living in the old testament, while giving themselves the title of "Christian"...not sure what part of the country you live in-but please BE CAREFUL, with whom you tell (church, nor the people who comprise it is no guarentee of a safe harbor)...hate crimes are alive and well!

I agree with Lorentz. Do not tell them that your gay. Ever (in my opinion).

I have different opinions on the matter, and I don't care if everyone disagrees. Whether you are born gay or not, doesn't make it pleasing to God. We are all in flesh. We are all born to various addictions and ailments.

Listen, I would rather someone be gay, than be a child molester or even someone that would lust over my mother. But here's the problem with being gay: it is a pointless "perversion". Perversion is the word used in the Bible, and it would be used for anything that is a deviation from a proper way.

"Purpose" is a huge part, or point, to Christianity. When we seperate ourselves from this world, we seperate ourselves from the flesh. In doing so we shut out physical drives, and realize the purpose- the "why"- of everything. We eat, sleep, and have sex no longer because we're hungry, tired, or horny, but we choose to do so for the purpose endowed in them.

To marry another man is purposeless. Its pointlessness is even viewable from our world. The "love" itself is purely physical, for if it were spiritual it would be able to be manifested in a child.

The reason you should never tell them is this: It would be like admitting a sin that I did not want to turn away from. It would be like saying you are a womanizer, but you can't help it because you were born with powerful sexual drives.

Jesus was compassionate, and I doubt this will effect your Salvation (not that Salvation can be affected). I am writing this out of compassion, but it requires a different kind of compassion. That of tolerence. Because you do not believe it to be something you need to change.

When he forgave he also said, "Go and sin no more." The reason to quit is only to please God.

 

[Michali]

Crud, I believe I contradicted myself in this thread. After feeling convicted about it, let me tell you I'm sorry. I agree with what I said at first over this rule ridden post above.

Listen, there is nothing better than adoption. If you get married to another man, I'm all for you. Please adopt. Adoption is a flag carried well by the gay people.

 

[lucaspa]

So when people quote the Bible to clarify theology as they understand it, then they are not following God?

LOL. Someone should tell this to every pastor, priest, and minister who quotes scripture during a sermon. Who knew they were not following God because they are 'quote mining'.

Sometimes, Mike, ministers do quote mine. They take quotes out of context from several parts of the Bible, make those quotes mean something different than what they meant in context, and then string them together to justify a theology they have come up with.

For instance, the whole "there was no death before the Fall and we all need to be saved from Adam's sin" is a quote-mined theology. So is the theology that the serpent in the Garden is Satan.

Quoting the Bible is fine. As long as it is quoted in context and the meaning is not changed. But far too many people quote mine the Bible, changing the meanings to fit with a pre-conceived theology.

I used to wonder how professional creationists could misquote with such calmness. Then I listened to Hovind, Falwell, and many others misquote the Bible in their sermons. It's done far too often.