FreeGrace2
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Gee, Dave, you're arguing against Calvinism!!Why command someone to do something if they don't have free will?
Why do the cops arrest you if you don't have free will to obey the law?
That would be my point also, but that does not make free will a part of the law. The law exists because people have free will, not the other way round.Why command someone to do something if they don't have free will?
Why do the cops arrest you if you don't have free will to obey the law?
The Law placed wicked Israel under threat of death and provided carnal benefits for obedience. It could not save. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.That would be my point also, but that does not make free will a part of the law. The law exists because people have free will, not the other way round.
People not subject to the Law (TORAH) are not without free will.
Free Will is a part of creation, from Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden onwards.
We lost our ability to believe in God through Adam. We sinned in him and cannot be saved unless God saves us.Please tell why do you think so?
Try to keep the law as Jesus taught....see how far you get.That is not providing a measuring stick, but we experience (have knowledge) of sin.
Respectfully, the problem is qualifying the term 'free will'. When we insist the will is free, then do we argue against the narrative that there is such a thing as wisdom which alters one's views and decisions? I note that God says sin is at your door, it desires to have you. Why say this? It seems to me that God is implying sin wants to manipulate Cain. I also note that this is after Cain's offering was not esteemed as well as Abel's. The lack of esteem towards Cain's offering is being taken by Cain as a personal cut down that seems unjust to Cain. The sequence of events indicate that how God esteemed the offerings differently is what initiated the emotional feeling of not being accepted.The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor. So Cain was very angry, and his face was downcast. Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”Was The Father prepared to accept Cains worship and his offering if he had “done right,”? God rhetorically answers yes, Cain would be no less than Able, if only he decided on righteousness like his brother.
Can God accept the sacrifice of an unregenerate, wickedly sinful murderer? If not than the teasing that he could be accepted was a sham, a mocking reply, since the Father was never willing to restore Cain to a right spiritual condition in the first place. His worship was never going to be acceptable under Calvinism. Why taunt the man with false hope?
Now outside of Calvinism, according to the Bible, Cain, who 1 John 3 described as “belonging to the evil one,” is offered the same kind of opportunity to share pure, acceptable worship as anyone else, that’s an incredible thing. That’s very gracious.
Respectfully, I have used scripture to show how the term free will is problematic due to it's ability to cause misunderstandings when unqualified.Lots of opinions and very little scripture being used to back them up in this thread. So far, no scripture has been offered to show any supposed harmful side effects of free will. That would have to be because there isn't any.
Respectfully, the problem is qualifying the term 'free will'.
I note that God says sin is at your door, it desires to have you. Why say this? It seems to me that God is implying sin wants to manipulate Cain.
What Scripture says this? This is a common claim by Calvinists, but is not true.We lost our ability to believe in God through Adam.
True. And the Bible says clearly who God chooses to save: believers.We sinned in him and cannot be saved unless God saves us.
I agree, but Free Will is not part of the Law, which is what the OP stated.The Law placed wicked Israel under threat of death and provided carnal benefits for obedience. It could not save. Salvation has always been by grace through faith.
Yes, that's true. But, I'm talking about those who don't believe in free will, as they understand it, not offering any scripture to show how there are any harmful side effects of it (as they understand it). Wouldn't you agree? The person who started this thread, in particular, just constantly states opinions without providing any scripture to back them up.Respectfully, I have used scripture to show how the term free will is problematic due to it's ability to cause misunderstandings when unqualified.
It is part of any law. It's why law exists. What good is law without it?I agree, but Free Will is not part of the Law, which is what the OP stated.
Just because there is a loose relationship doesn't make it part of the Law. The Law requires thought, but an existing relationship between law and thought does not mean thought is anathema - because no one is saved by the law. I don't know why I have to state this.It is part of any law. It's why law exists. What good is law without it?
It is part of any law. It's why law exists. What good is law without it?
You're right. It's necessary that all involved come to terms before any edifying discourse can occur. I'm pretty sure the poster of the op means to describe the sentiment of always being culpable for one's moral/immoral actions in the form of it being an absolute. However this is a particularly difficult subject to articulate. Sometimes it takes lot's of practice to convey one's thoughts perfectly.Yes, that's true. But, I'm talking about those who don't believe in free will, as they understand it, not offering any scripture to show how there are any harmful side effects of it (as they understand it). Wouldn't you agree?
Frankly I don't see why Calvinism needs to be mentioned. We all experience life in a unique way and I can't speak for Calvin.Sure but that’s true for almost everything these days, from gender to love to freedom, equivocation abounds. Although in this case we’re probably only talking about 1 of 2 options, we’re either discussing the verse under the view compatibilism or libertarianism.
Under compatibilism (i.e. for the thinking Calvinist) God taunts and gives false promises to Cain for being a fallen creature in a fallen world. In essence he mocks a legless man for his inability to kick a football.
Under libertarianism (AKA what humans experience everyday,) God rhetorically chides the fallen creature for not choosing righteousness when the option to side with righteousness and be accepted was available from the start.
I'm going to leave Calvin out of it.And what does God say about sin crouching like an animal, Cain must “rule over it,” but once again, according to Calvinism Cain can’t rule over sinfulness without being irresistibly regenerated and having his nature changed.
First, free will is a part of Law. And law cannot save. Free will only leaves people without excuse for breaking laws that cannot save. But this is not true of grace. Grace is unconditional kindness. So when we preach free will salvation, we turn grace into law and the gospel into works. Since Paul stresses the law cannot save, it leaves people with false hope of salvation.
It also focuses a person’s faith in their faith to save them. Instead of on Christ who is the author and finisher of true faith.
It also corrupts God’s image. It turns him into a bully who threatens to torture people forever if they don’t “say uncle”, or do whatever their church tells them to do. And it also turns those who sell their souls for heavenly pleasures into people less than honorable.
If Grace, also known as unmerited favor, is the means of salvation, then God receives full glory for saving us. Otherwise, we rob him of his glory and apply it to ourselves thinking our obedience (goodness) saves us.
Free will only makes salvation impossible. Salvation is by faith but free will says you can lose your salvation. Thinking you can lose your salvation makes having faith that God saved you impossible.
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