some good news

[chickenman]

http://wvgazette.com/news/Today/2003022022/

Teachers will explain evolution only
Science, but not by design
Friday February 21, 2003

By Eric Eyre
STAFF WRITER

State Board of Education members on Thursday unanimously backed the teaching of evolution in West Virginia science classrooms.

The state board approved new science standards and tossed out suggested revisions from creation scientists and “intelligent design” supporters.

Those groups wanted the standards to encourage teachers and students to examine evolution more critically.

Board members declined to single out any scientific theories in the standards.

Science teachers across the state celebrated the vote.

“The board studied it hard and honestly and made the right decision,” said Mark Lynch, a science teacher at Lewis County High School. “They saw what the intelligent design people were offering, and they saw it was insufficient.”

“This just says we’re going to teach science as science,” said Jody Cunningham, who teaches at Parkersburg High School and also serves as president of the West Virginia Science Teachers Association.

John Calvert, managing director of the Intelligent Design network in Shawnee Mission, Kan., said board members might have voted differently if they had more time to study intelligent design.

The theory holds that nature is so complex it must have had a master designer.

“This issue is not going away,” Calvert said. “It will not go away as long as we have a free society.”

Board members were mostly silent before Thursday’s vote. School board President Howard Persinger Jr. read statements from scientists who criticize intelligent design.

Meanwhile, school board member Barbara Fish asked whether the standards would allow teachers to explain evolution theory objectively. Department of Education officials said the standards would.

Young-earth creationists and students marched to the lectern to criticize the science standards during Thursday’s meeting in Charleston.

One parent trotted out his son, and the two performed a skit that skewered evolution and the science standards.

Students said the standards were “hostile” to their religious views. They said they oppose science by indoctrination.

“They can’t prove evolution. They can’t prove it,” said Jerry E. Davis, a junior at Man High School in Logan County. “If you can’t prove it, how can you teach it?”

Other students said teaching evolution leads to numerous social ills such as increased drug use and crime among teens.

“You are teaching us with this theory that there is not a purpose to life,” said Mary Lynn Neese, a student at Nitro High School.

School board members rejected a summary statement that a Department of Education committee added to the standards last week to resolve a dispute with Calvert. The statement didn’t single out evolution.

Several retired scientists said Thursday that school leaders gave intelligent design advocates more consideration than they deserved.

“They have the same status of people who believe the Earth is flat,” said Charles Picay, a retired physicist.

the IDists never give up with the wedge strategy; If you can't support it scientifically, then indoctrinate the children - i'm glad they failed this time

 

[Auntie]

......and the private schools keep growing and growing and growing and growing......

 

[Blindfaith]

So......limiting children's choices to decide on their own is a good thing?  Isn't that kind of limiting their options and thinking?

I'm with Auntie.  My Jr. High daughter wants to stay at her public school, but appreciates having all arguments layed out so she can make an intelligent decision.  I don't worry about her at all ~ she's very strong-willed and makes her own decisions, not based purely upon "scientific" speculation.

My 2nd to youngest daughter will be starting kindergarten next year.  It will be in a private school. 

 

[chickenman]

its not limiting their choices because intelligent design or creationism is no more a choice than pink space unicorns when it comes to scientific theories

would you object if someone wanted the greek mythology of lifes origins taught in public science classes?

 

[mala]

Other students said teaching evolution leads to numerous social ills such as increased drug use and crime among teens.

that comment almost made me fall out of my chair.

 

you would think that simple stupidity would lead to those things

 

[mala]

“This issue is not going away,” Calvert said. “It will not go away as long as we have a free society.”

 

thats just the problem

those very same people would have it all be creationism if they had their way.

if you want to learn about creationism take a theology or religious studies course

a science course should be about and only about science

 

[mala]

“You are teaching us with this theory that there is not a purpose to life,” said Mary Lynn Neese, a student at Nitro High School.

i see that as being rather pathetic

cant these people think for themselves???

you make your own purpose in life

it isnt handed to you on a silver platter

 

[mala]

“They have the same status of people who believe the Earth is flat,” said Charles Picay, a retired physicist.

ironic though isn't it that just several 100 years ago it was heresy to say otherwise

 

[Auntie]

Today at 02:24 AM blindfaith said this in Post #3 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=670917#post670917)


My 2nd to youngest daughter will be starting kindergarten next year.  It will be in a private school. 

I don't blame you one bit. This evolution battle is not going away. I keep hearing of more and more parents homeschooling, too. And I'm beginning to hear about public schools shutting down, simply due to a too small student enrollment. The public schools have only themselves to blame.

Our small children are our most precious loved ones, and the idea of daily shipping them off to a government run organization, is mostly a modern one and a bad idea, imo. As parents, it is ultimately our responsibility and our God-given right, to safeguard the minds of our little ones.

 

[Susan]

Speaking out of experience as an ex-homeschooled student, I would advise you to think VERY hard before you homeschool, especially if the idea is to "shelter" your children from society. If your idea for homeschooling is to be educationally better than the public and private schools around and to give all options, and you're qualified, though, I'd say go for it.

The problem with homeschooling as a shelter (especially if your child is not allowed/able to speak with anyone but family members or if his/her social experience consists of a few likeminded families) is that it encourages a form of almost compulsive solitude as a lifestyle in many people.

I do disdain public schools however. . .because of evolution and "immorality education" classes.

IMHO, private Christian schools are probably the best choice, if you can withstand the financial pain.

 

[Jerry Smith]

“You are teaching us with this theory that there is not a purpose to life,” said Mary Lynn Neese, a student at Nitro High School.

LOL!

Tenets of the evolutionary modern synthesis:
1) variation by random mutation
2) selection for reproductive fitness
3) common descent
4) There is no purpose to life, and don't you forget it!

Blindfaith -

So......limiting children's choices to decide on their own is a good thing? Isn't that kind of limiting their options and thinking?

I'm with Auntie. My Jr. High daughter wants to stay at her public school, but appreciates having all arguments layed out so she can make an intelligent decision. I don't worry about her at all ~ she's very strong-willed and makes her own decisions, not based purely upon "scientific" speculation.

Yes, limiting "choices" is important in education. Students shouldn't get to "choose" whether 2+2=4 or 2+2=5, whether the American Revolution occurred in North or South America, whether Water is composed of molecules or the "Water Element", or whether the diversity of life is the immediate result of 3 billion years of common descent primarily by variation and natural selection, or whether the all life was created recently and in forms very similar to their modern forms.

Now, on the other hand, until Fermat's last theorem is proven, it is ok for them to know that it is an unproven theorem, that there is some question about how the idea for an American revolution was inspired, the standard model of quantum mechanics is the best theory in the history of the physical sciences, but that it leaves some observations unaccounted for, and that there is room for doubt about some specific family trees in our evolutionary past, and some question about the relative importance of mutations, gene transfer, selection, drift, etc... It's good for them to know that there are questions remaining that they can use their own good judgement to help illuminate, when they have learned about the current state of knowledge in mathematics, history, science and other subjects. It's good for them to know that in all of those subjects, it is still possible to find errors in the current state of knowledge and to correct them.

It's probably not a good idea to let them believe the mistaken idea that "Scientific Creationists" have a track record of improving our state of knowledge in physics, geology, paleontology, or biology. In fact, Scientific Creationists have a history of contributing errors, borrowing main-stream findings to support a poorly articulated theory, while doing little or no independent research, ignoring the mass of the evidence to focus on details that might support the conclusion they are already committed to, etc. Scientific creationism and Intelligent Design might be good examples to explain to them about methods that fail to advance human knowledge, so that they will be able to recognize and avoid pseudoscientific claims like those of creationism, numerology, astrology, etc..

It might be worthwhile to teach them at home or at school about the different means of gaining knowledge: reason and faith, and how it is not necessary to abandon faith in order to embrace reason, and that the choices of beliefs made by faith can be made independently of the choices of beliefs made by reason. It might be worth letting them know that science doesn't tell us anything about "God" or about "meaning", and that any statement to the contrary is pseudoscientific.

All this having been said, the choice between private, home, and public schools is a difficult one, and should be made for the right reasons. I would never home-school my children, even if I could stay home every day for the purpose, because I don't have the qualifications in many subjects, especially at the high school level, to be sure I am teaching them well. Others, who are well educated in many subjects may have an advantage over me in that respect. Private schools are too expensive, so I send them to public school, then try to enhance their educational experience through extra instruction at home - usually in areas that interest them, so as not to turn them "off" to education..

 

[Jerry Smith]

“You are teaching us with this theory that there is not a purpose to life,” said Mary Lynn Neese, a student at Nitro High School.

In my previous post, I LOL'd this, but really it is spooky. Obviously this student has learned a grave error about what the theory of evolution does or does not say. Based on my familiarity with science teachers and text books, and based on my familiarity with creationist claims, it is obvious to me that she learned this horrible scientific mistake from creationists - not scientists. This is argument enough for keeping creationism out of the classroom. Teaching errors about science is not what our educational system is supposed to be about!

 

[Blindfaith]

I had the coolest 4th grade teacher ever (public school).  He had a huge 150 gallon tropical fish tank, and we all got to bring in a fish.  Of course, when my angel fish died, I cried.  Anyway.....

He had a unit on science; evolution  vs  creationism.  I wish the jr. high, high school science teachers taught it that way, in order to allow students to make their own decisions, but....::shrug::.  Anyway, our teacher told us that he was going to teach us all aspects (at a 4th grade level, mind you) of each side, and at the end of the course, ask us what we believed was correct as well as tell us what he believed.

No big surprise what I believed.  This is rather comical:  I was arguing in a typical 4th grade fashion, with Ted (fellow classmate), because I believed in creation, he believed in evolution.  Well, he started talkin' smack about God and that really ticked me off.  So, I belted him and gave him a bloody nose.  He started crying and I was crowned Queen of the schoolyard .  I haven't changed much, huh? :o .  Poor guy.  We joked about it at graduation.  He never did change his mind, but we got along famously in high school.

 

[Jerry Smith]

I find it rather difficult to believe that you learned all aspects of the theory of evolution in 4th grade. I find it difficult to believe that both science and creationism were explained correctly, complete with the "problems" of both "sides" and that you still chose creationism. That's why "giving students the choice" is kind of a bad idea. What if they had done the same thing with political science versus "mundane astrology"? What if they had stacked the deck for mundane astrology knowing a fourth grader could never sift through the real problems of the pseudoscientific approach & never understand the complexities of political science without a lot of help?

What if they used sophistry to "prove" that 2+2=5 as part of some uncredited "alternative math" theory, then showed you what standard math says... would you (in 4th grade), have been able to sort out the fact from error?

What if they presented the theory that pi was equal to 3, gave some hogwash pseudo-scientific "evidence", and told you that the Bible says pi=3 (pointing to specific verses that could be interpreted that way)? What would you have "chosen"?

What if they presented the theory that the stars, planets, and sun moved but the Earth was stationary, and it was true because God's Word claimed it was true, and also, look at this work Ptolemy did that proves it?

What if they said there were literal "floodgates" in the heavens, and showed radar pictures of no less dubious quality than those we have of the Loch Ness monster. What if they showed you the account of Noah's flood that speaks of said "floodgates". When you were in fourth grade, could you have figured out which shell the pea was hidden under?

Is it possible that your teacher's exercise lent a seeming legitimacy to a falsified theory when you were in fourth grade and that your understanding of science has sufferred ever since - because you got your "choice" instead of the facts?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

Today at 10:30 AM Jerry Smith said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=671108#post671108)

Yes, limiting "choices" is important in education. Students shouldn't get to "choose" whether 2+2=4 or 2+2=5, whether the American Revolution occurred in North or South America, whether Water is composed of molecules or the "Water Element", or whether the diversity of life is the immediate result of 3 billion years of common descent primarily by variation and natural selection, or whether the all life was created recently and in forms very similar to their modern forms.

I don't know about this Jerry. I mean, this "choice" thing may have merit. For example, all my school life I was indoctrinated into believing France exists. They even tried to make me learn the "French" language! But now that I'm out of school, I'm starting to have serious doubts. I mean, it's just incomprehensible to me that such a thing as "French culture" could possibly exist. And that language! Nobody in their right mind could speak such a thing!

But in school it was all "France this" and "France that". Atlases, maps, globes... you name it. Of course, if I ever asked a teacher, they'd say something like, "Well, no, I've never actually seen France... but it's in all these books and maps, it must be true!".

And don't even get me started on the Roman Empire...

 

[datan]

Now, on the other hand, until Fermat's last theorem is proven, it is ok for them to know that it is an unproven theorem,

it has been proven ...

 

[Red Panda]

Today at 12:24 AM blindfaith said this in Post #3

So......limiting children's choices to decide on their own is a good thing?  Isn't that kind of limiting their options and thinking?

I'm with Auntie.  My Jr. High daughter wants to stay at her public school, but appreciates having all arguments layed out so she can make an intelligent decision.  I don't worry about her at all ~ she's very strong-willed and makes her own decisions, not based purely upon "scientific" speculation.

My 2nd to youngest daughter will be starting kindergarten next year.  It will be in a private school. 

Do you believe that failing to teach the flat-earth theory in geography is limiting a child's choices in thinking?

 

[Red Panda]

Today at 01:13 AM mala said this in Post #7

i see that as being rather pathetic

cant these people think for themselves???

you make your own purpose in life

it isnt handed to you on a silver platter

Ick.  Nitro.  I think I've been there.  Ick, ick, ick.

 

[Rae]

Blind:
So......limiting children's choices to decide on their own is a good thing? Isn't that kind of limiting their options and thinking?

Rae:
Yep, and parents do that all the time with their kids. Thank goodness they do! I mean, most parents don't take their kids to sexually explicit movies. That's limiting their options, certainly, but not in a bad way.

If parents want their kids to think about ID or other faith-based notions, they can, oh, take them to church or teach them at home about them, no? Why do the public schools have to do it for them?

BTW, I too would be very pro-home schooling if I had kids, not because of curriculum per se (though I have some personal concerns about that as well), but because of the abuses I and others have suffered at the hands of other kids in public school. I think it's better to teach at home and have happy, well-adjusted kids rather than letting the publics teach and have kids who fear going to school because they will be abused physically and mentally there, as I was through junior high and high school.

 

[Aurelius]

I was reading posts on this thread but, they are gone now? At least four posts from two forum members, have vanished.

What happened? Is there something wrong with my browser?