Some don't understand Romans 3:31. Here is a challenge.

Frogster · Mar 16, 2015

JohnRabbit said:
i'd check that version of yours, if it were me!

John, was Paul establishing faith in 3:31 that was found in the OT, or somehow the 10 commndments in 3:31?

Frogster · Mar 16, 2015

Cribstyl said:
The KJV says the same thing.......

1 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.

exactly! thumbsup:

Frogster · Mar 16, 2015

listed said:
Love your smaller posts. They are simple and I do not have to go looking for what you say.

Thanks you! and yes, you don't have to go looking around, and read long posts, with different colors, and alot of unnecessary things.

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2015

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Already done about half a dozen times so far... you keep insisting that you are ignoring the content of the posts -- I am starting to believe you on that point.

here we have the perfect illustration of Rom 3:31 and how it is that it points to the moral law of God -- still binding on all the saints - as the majority of even your own pro-sunday scholarship admits.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

bugkiller said:
What you posted above doesn't make sense

Yes it does make perfect sense. And it relies on the context in the chapter to define terms.

Paul says the Law defines what sin is - and condemns the entire world. As we just saw "in the text". And that is the moral law of God - as Paul reminds us in 2Cor 3.

bugkiller said:
because of your pro law stance and view on what is sin for the Christian.

Paul is the one in Rom 3 saying it defines sin.

Paul is the one in Rom 3 saying it condemns all mankind under penalty of death.

Paul is the one that tells us that the Law that does that - is the TEN Commandments in 2Cor 3:7.

No wonder even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship see and admit to this Bible detail.

bugkiller said:
What you posted above doesn't make sense because of your pro law stance and view on what is sin for the Christian. You clearly promote righteousness by the law in that you say its willful sin if the Sabbath isn't observed.

bugkiller

It is the majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship that opposes your solution to the text - this is not simply something that only the 7th day Sabbath Bible believing Christians would "notice".

As we all know by now.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2015

JohnRabbit said:
Originally Posted by Cribstyl

John, what are you up too??? SDA doctrine teach that keeping the Sabbath and the law (Third Angels message) are the standard of God's judgment.

Click to expand...

this proves that you haven't been paying attention to what i've been saying.

read rom 3:20, it echos my sentiment.

and i'm not SDA!

The quote from crybstyl that you link does not actually go anywhere???

In any case - the points of objection that we find on this thread are not at all unique to SDAs vs sunday-keeping christians - in fact that POV here that opposes the Ten Commandments - also opposes even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship.

Which is yet another reason why we have to keep quoting those sources each time the attempt is made to "bend" the point back on itself as if to charge that the only people that know about the Bible details in support of the TEN Commandments are "SDA"s.

So kind of interesting that the post with that charge so explicitly stated - is... now missing???

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2015

from post #113

BobRyan said:
You have not proven that Rom 3:19 is not a reference to the moral law of God that defines sin and condemns the entire world - the Ten Commandments as I have repeatedly proven so far.

And it is odd that even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship admits to this Bible fact.

Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...

(So then the moral law of God is being affirmed by all of scripture "the Law and the Prophets")

29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

So then -- context, context, context.

Frogster said:
You said Romans 3 was about the 10 in post 88, as you quoted 3:19 which says law in it, yet 3:19 is not about the 10, so you are incorrect in saying that rom 3 is about the 10.

And in post 113 and in a half dozen more - showing the "details" in Romans 3.

1. Paul points to the LAW as defining sin. Rom 3:20, Romans 7.
2. Paul points to the fact that that same LAW condemns all mankind under penalty of death and in need of the Gospel. Romans 3:19
3. Paul points to the TEN Commandments as being the Law of death that condemns all mankind - 2Cor 3:7.

Nothing in Rom 3:19 says "the Law that condemns all the world in not the Ten Commandments".

And even the majority your own pro-sunday scholarship admits to this Bible detail ... it is no "just me" that notices it. Paul is not "Writing the LAW" or "inventing the LAW" in Romans 3 - but he is making statements about it - as we find in many other parts of scripture - as even Paul reminds us.

obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2015

Frogster said:
Sorry but you're doing it again, how does this post disprove your contradicition about the passover, and sabbath?

simple - I have not made any such contradiction.

next.

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2015

Frogster said:
one post, one question.

How does faith establish the law, the very law that voids faith, and is not of faith?

Romans 3;31 -- Law does not void faith.

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Each time a post is given to exactly contradict Paul in Rom 3:31 -- it requires that I post Rom 3:31.

And of course even the majority of your own pro-sunday scholarship are going for Rom 3:31 so it is not just me, or "just Paul".

in Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Mar 16, 2015

Frogster said:
One post, one question..You said rom 3 was about sin and morals, then you said it was not about Passover. Yet you say it is about Sabbath. Please explain that obvious contradiciton.

There is no contradiction because Passover is not included in the TEN Commandments.

next.

Frogster · Mar 16, 2015

Bob, before we go further, what about how you said in post 88, that it was the 10 commandments in Rom 3, while you quoted 3:19, which is clearly not about the 10? Again, this is contradictory, after you settle this mistake, I will proceed on your new posts.

Please see my next post, before answering, thanks!

Frogster · Mar 16, 2015

In other words Bob, after we settle this point, about the rom 3 mistake, I will go point by point, not post by post, because aome posts may have several points in them, or verses out of context, so for clarity, I will go point by point, one point one at a time, that's even better for us both, then we can resolve all issues.

This will make for a more friendly cohesive chat.

Because if a post has several points, and then I rebut them, there are now several mini debates per post, it starts to look to mixed up, with all due respect, it gets defused, and confusing, and a cohesive clarity will be lost. I am here for the long haul, so are you amigo, so lets go point by point, there is no rush!

thanks! Frog.

Ok, on to Rom 3, and why somehow are the 10 the issue, when 3:19 was not about the 10?

Please give a short, to the point, direct answer. Thanks!

yesyoushould · Mar 17, 2015

listed said:
Your post has nothing to do with anything I said.

Why do you think I hate Christianity?

I'm sure the law of God and grace is good.

yesyoushould · Mar 17, 2015

Frogster said:
Bob, lets go one at a time...the issue is the usage of the law word in 3:31, in conjunction with the faith word. Law can mean the prophets, the code, the Psalms, Genesis etc, as I have shown. What is all of that above, but a diversionary long confusing distraction. Simple, simple, question, we don't need all of this.

#1 How does faith, establish the code, when the code is not of faith Gal 3:12, and voids faith Rom 4:14? How can it establish something that voids it?

Then I will go back to the other 2 simple points.

I beg you to just give me a simple answer to my simple question

I can answer that.
Who desires to justify murder?

yesyoushould · Mar 17, 2015

So your against murder? Who isn't? " Thou shalt not murder." What is wrong with the law of God? Who knows?

yesyoushould · Mar 17, 2015

Frogster said:
Please give a short, to the point, direct answer. Thanks!

I understand your stance, freedom for all, to do anything.

Is it ok to murder you? If not, how come? You said it is all ok and they can just ask for forgiveness and then it is ok.

listed · Mar 17, 2015

yesyoushould said:
I'm sure the law of God and grace is good.

Did I say otherwise?

Please answer my question why you think I hate Christianity.

listed · Mar 17, 2015

yesyoushould said:
I can answer that.
Who desires to justify murder?

Not even the same ones who justify lying.

listed · Mar 17, 2015

yesyoushould said:
So your against murder? Who isn't? " Thou shalt not murder." What is wrong with the law of God? Who knows?

There is nothing wrong with the law of God. There is nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. It is just because we have a New Covenant that does not include them as an obligation. How can any one murder another and say they love themselves? If what Jesus said is true those who would murder are also confessing they want someone to murder them. This includes mental and spiritual murder IMHO.

Cribstyl · Mar 17, 2015

yesyoushould said:
I understand your stance, freedom for all, to do anything.

Is it ok to murder you? If not, how come? You said it is all ok and they can just ask for forgiveness and then it is ok.

Word can be used as a way to get an advantage of others. Accusing that's we're saying it's OK to murder is satan's a plot to confuse the facts.

Roman 2 and 3 teaches about how God will judge the world.
It explains that that will judge both those with and without the law by sin not by law.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

Those who feel that law is God's standard of judgment fail to understand the doctrine of God's Judgment as established in Roman 2&3.
If any man breaks the law, by the standard of the law, he should die, because there is no gray area in the law.
Forgiveness of sins is God's plan to save the world. If you're pursuing righteousness by trying to keep the law, that's you. But when you judge others by the law, you subject yourself to condemnation by the law. (Rom 2:1-5)

Within this context, we learn that all men have sinned and fall short of God glory. (Rom 3:23)
We learn that the law only give us knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20)
What this mean is the law is only a listing of things not to break. It's similar to a boxing announcer saying: "and Fraizer throws a punch to the neck." His voice only bring attention to the action. Without or before the voice of the law, sin was always an option.

Paul teaches that sin was in the world before the law. Some rather take John out of context and claim the premise that sin is transgression of the law.

Paul reveals that if God everlasting promise to Abraham had a condition of keeping the law, then Jesus died in vain.

These scriptures below reinforce some facts above..........
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Keep in mind the scripture does not conclude that we're all under law. It say we're all under for sin..........

God bless.

BobRyan · Mar 17, 2015

listed said:
There is nothing wrong with the law of God. There is nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. It is just because we have a New Covenant that does not include them as an obligation. How can any one murder another and say they love themselves? If what Jesus said is true those who would murder are also confessing they want someone to murder them. This includes mental and spiritual murder IMHO.

Not according to Paul --

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.

nothing wrong with God's TEN Commandments.

The NEW Covenant places "the LAW of God on the heart and mind" as we see in Hebrews 8 and Jer 31:31-33

Some don't understand Romans 3:31. Here is a challenge.

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