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I quote Hebrews even when others find it inconvenient.
[FONT="]1. Paul never commands gentiles to ignore the writings of Moses.
2. Paul DOES tell gentiles that Moses' writings are still authoritative scripture in 1Cor 9:8-9 and 1Tim 5:18 and binding as being "Law" and as being "scripture".
3. Paul quotes from Moses and the TEN Commandments Eph 6:2. Full 5th commandment[/FONT]
Nothing unusual here. Just more ignoring of the Scripture even while quoting it.Turns out he does say exactly that.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
No, Paul does not say any such thing.
If "ALL SCRIPTURE" is inspired as you referenced, why do you not accept all of what Paul wrote? Peter calls it Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. I think you don't accept the entire NT as Scripture.
When Paul quotes Moses in Heb 3 Paul says "The Holy Spirit says" -- far from abolishing Moses - Paul upholds it as the still binding - Word of God.
So also with his "ALL SCRIPTURE" inspired statement in 2Tim 3:16-17.
No, Paul doesn't say any such thing.
Turns out he does say exactly that.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
All accepted.... and "in context"If "ALL SCRIPTURE" is inspired as you referenced, why don't accept all of what Paul wrote?
For reason that cannot be explained.Peter calls it Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. I think you don't accept the entire NT as Scripture.
No, Paul doesn't say any such thing.
If "ALL SCRIPTURE" is inspired as you referenced, why don't accept all of what Paul wrote? Peter calls it Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16. I think you don't accept the entire NT as Scripture.
I see that 2 Tim 3 is not entirely in line with that statement -- as shown above.
Nothing unusual here. Just more ignoring of the Scripture even while quoting it.
The only Scripture that Timothy had available to him as a child was the OT. Even at the time that 2 Timothy was written, not all of the other NT books had yet been written. That is not to say that the NT isn't Scripture or isn't God-breathed, or that it didn't quickly become regarded as Scripture, just that what Paul had in mind was the OT.
Hebrews inconvenient? not to us on this side,
Hebrews inconvenient? not to us on this side, it rebukes them for trying to go back to the Old cov, as spurning the blood, and the Spirit of grace in 10:29, so you may mant to check out your facts here a bit.
The only Scripture that Timothy had available to him as a child was the OT. Even at the time that 2 Timothy was written, not all of the other NT books had yet been written. That is not to say that the NT isn't Scripture or isn't God-breathed, or that it didn't quickly become regarded as Scripture, just that what Paul had in mind was the OT.
It is true that some don't understand the Law of God --
10 Commandments are
Commandments of God Neh 10:29
Law of God Neh 10:29
Word of God Mark 7:13
Commandment of God Mark 7:6-13
NT Scripture James 2:8
NT Law James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
Paul speaks of it in Romans 3 frequently pointing out that it condemns all the world under sin.
And then ends with this point "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31sure he also does condemn with law, but then do you only see the law as a negative restraint?
Also, yes the world under sin, but how do you "establish" if for the justified church?
You do quote it here alot, how are you tyring to "establish" the law when you quote it here?
besides, the issue is that faith, is not established by the law. We live by faith now, it says BUT NOW in Rom 3:21.
And you're still not interpreting the actual verse properly.
The law is "ESTABLISHED" for the justified believer according to Paul in Rom 3 -- even while it condemns the lost.
"Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
It does so for the saints because in both OT and NT the New Covenant is "written on the heart and mind" as Paul points out in Heb 8 - quoting Jer 31:31-33.
so then "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" as Paul says in 1Cor 7:19
The point is "irrefutable"
How, how could the law establish faith, when the law voids faith?
You still are not interpreting it proplerly.
Your line 1, how is it establishd for the believer, while it condemns the lost, all while the believer is now justified by faith, not by the condemning law?You seem to think tha that the law does everything. It does not, it can't kill, and give life, that is a fact.
you still don't see that the law word in 31, is not the code.
Glad to hear that!
Because Hebrews tells us that the NEW Covenant is the same as is stated in Jer 31:31-33 with the LAW of God known to Jeremiah and his contemporary readers - written on the heart.
Turns out - Hebrews 8 is still in the book of Hebrews.
And ... Heb 3 still refers to the OT as 'The Holy Spirit says".
in Christ,
Bob
Question for you..
You say the laws are written on our hearts, which ones?
if the same laws applied, we would have to follow every law externally, if every law were written internally. No?
Then why don't SDA folks, keep feasts, are those not written on hearts, while somehow laws that say i can;t have shrimp scampi are?
See what i mean? Under the law they could not pick-n-choose, they had to follow all of the laws.
So are feasts written on our hearts too? if so, you have to keep those too, you can't just select food laws.
I don;t keep that stuff, but I am not promoting the law.
PS, Hebrews was a strong rebuke to those who were seeking to go back under the Old cov!
So then what would be an example of such pro-Sunday scholarship that pertains to the 7 point summary list just posted?
Here we have section 19 of the Westminster - and of course you already have a few posts of mine quoting the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
[FONT="][FONT="]Westminster Confession of Faith Section 19[/FONT][/FONT]"Westminster Confession of Faith"Section 21 of the Westminster and Section 22 of the Baptist both address point 7 "the change" the edit of the Sabbath commandment from the 7th day starting from creation and all through the OT and NT Gospel until the cross where it is "changed" in their mind -- to point to week-day-1.
[FONT="]Chapter XIX[/FONT][FONT="]I. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which He bound him and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience, promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.[/FONT][FONT="][1][/FONT][FONT="]Of the Law of God[/FONT]
[FONT="]
II. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables:[/FONT][FONT="][2][/FONT][FONT="] the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six, our duty to man.[/FONT][FONT="][3][/FONT]
[FONT="]
III. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, His graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;[/FONT][FONT="][4][/FONT][FONT="] and partly, holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.[/FONT][FONT="][5][/FONT][FONT="] All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.[/FONT][FONT="][6][/FONT]
[FONT="]
IV. To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.[/FONT][FONT="][7][/FONT]
[FONT="]
V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[/FONT][FONT="][8][/FONT][FONT="] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[/FONT][FONT="][9][/FONT][FONT="] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[/FONT][FONT="][10][/FONT]
[FONT="]
VI. Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[/FONT][FONT="][11][/FONT][FONT="] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[/FONT][FONT="][12][/FONT][FONT="] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[/FONT][FONT="][13][/FONT][FONT="] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[/FONT][FONT="][14][/FONT][FONT="] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[/FONT][FONT="][15][/FONT][FONT="] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[/FONT][FONT="][16][/FONT][FONT="] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[/FONT][FONT="][17][/FONT][FONT="] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[/FONT][FONT="][18][/FONT][FONT="] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[/FONT][FONT="][19][/FONT][FONT="] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[/FONT][FONT="][20][/FONT]
[FONT="]
VII. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[/FONT][FONT="][21][/FONT][FONT="] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[/FONT][FONT="][22][/FONT]
Your argument is "with the text". Responding to me as if I authored it does not work.
The fact that Paul uses the same term in Romans 3 to condemn the lost and shows how that SAME Law is "ESTABLISHED" rather than "abolished" is irrefutable.
It is not me "proposing" that Rom 3:31 be written or be included in the Bible. I point to the fact that it is already there.
in Christ,
Bob
Your argument is "with the text". Responding to me as if I authored it does not work.
The fact that Paul uses the same term in Romans 3 to condemn the lost and shows how that SAME Law is "ESTABLISHED" rather than "abolished" is irrefutable.
It is not me "proposing" that Rom 3:31 be written or be included in the Bible. I point to the fact that it is already there.
in Christ,
Bob
I don't find anything wrong with the law and grace. Love for all.
Gerhard Ebersöhn;67167362 said:Some things jump far too high for me to come by ---things like <codes> 'n stuff.
Is that the NRSV?it's easy to see...
Rom 2:27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law.
Originally Posted by Frogster
Also, yes the world under sin, but how do you "establish" if for the justified church?
You do quote it here alot, how are you tyring to "establish" the law when you quote it here?
besides, the issue is that faith, is not established by the law. We live by faith now, it says BUT NOW in Rom 3:21.
And you're still not interpreting the actual verse properly.
Originally Posted by Frogster
You still are not interpreting it proplerly.
Your line 1, how is it establishd for the believer, while it condemns the lost, all while the believer is now justified by faith, not by the condemning law?You seem to think tha that the law does everything. It does not, it can't kill, and give life, that is a fact.
you still don't see that the law word in 31, is not the code.
Same here..what was WRITTEN, he is in Genesis,
Same here..what was WRITTEN, he is in Genesis, still answering the quesion in 31, and he is about pre law Abraham, and faith rightoeusness, not the code..
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
written, WAS IT THE CODE HE WAS ESTABLISHING, OR GENESIS THERE?
Is that the NRSV?
bugkiller
Originally Posted by BobRyan
10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
Paul speaks of it in Romans 3 frequently pointing out that it condemns all the world under sin.
And then ends with this point "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
It does so for the saints because in both OT and NT the New Covenant is "written on the heart and mind" as Paul points out in Heb 8 - quoting Jer 31:31-33.
so then "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" as Paul says in 1Cor 7:19
The point is "irrefutable"
[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]
Your argument is "with the text". Responding to me as if I authored it does not work.
The fact that Paul uses the same term in Romans 3 to condemn the lost and shows how that SAME Law is "ESTABLISHED" rather than "abolished" is irrefutable.
It is not me "proposing" that Rom 3:31 be written or be included in the Bible. I point to the fact that it is already there.[/quiote]
notice that in Rom 3:31 we are talking about the SAME Law that condemns all the world even to this very day.
Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Only if you think all the "Law and the prophets" is in Genesis.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
He says "The LAW" the same one that defines sin and condemns all the world and is found in "The LAW and the Prophets" -- (i.e. "scripture")
Rom 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
An irrefutable point from Romans 3.
Originally Posted by BobRyan
10 Commandments are –
“Commandments of God” Neh 10:29
“Law of God” Neh 10:29
“Word of God” Mark 7:13
“Commandment of God” Mark 7:6-13
NT “Scripture” James 2:8
NT “Law” – James 2:9-11
NT Commandments Eph 6:2, Rom 13:9, Romans 7:7-10
Paul speaks of it in Romans 3 frequently pointing out that it condemns all the world under sin.
And then ends with this point "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
"Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31
It does so for the saints because in both OT and NT the New Covenant is "written on the heart and mind" as Paul points out in Heb 8 - quoting Jer 31:31-33.
so then "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" as Paul says in 1Cor 7:19
The point is "irrefutable"
[/INDENT]
[/INDENT]
Your argument is "with the text". Responding to me as if I authored it does not work.
The fact that Paul uses the same term in Romans 3 to condemn the lost and shows how that SAME Law is "ESTABLISHED" rather than "abolished" is irrefutable.
It is not me "proposing" that Rom 3:31 be written or be included in the Bible. I point to the fact that it is already there.[/quiote]
notice that in Rom 3:31 we are talking about the SAME Law that condemns all the world even to this very day.
Rom 3:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
...
29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Only if you think all the "Law and the prophets" is in Genesis.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
He says "The LAW" the same one that defines sin and condemns all the world and is found in "The LAW and the Prophets" -- (i.e. "scripture")
Rom 3
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
An irrefutable point from Romans 3.
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