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some basic questions

kimber1

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firstly, i come in peace :)

i was looking around for a FAQ of what y'all believe but i haven't really found what i was looking for. i'm just trying to gain a better persepctive of what you believe and why, the "points" (i know there are 5 and some only have 4) but i do not understand the whole tulip thing (although i know it's a pretty flower ;) )
so if someone could maybe explain some of this or point me to where i need to go it'd be much appreciated :)

peace be with you
Kim
 

akolouthein

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kimber1 said:
firstly, i come in peace :)

i was looking around for a FAQ of what y'all believe but i haven't really found what i was looking for. i'm just trying to gain a better persepctive of what you believe and why, the "points" (i know there are 5 and some only have 4) but i do not understand the whole tulip thing (although i know it's a pretty flower ;) )
so if someone could maybe explain some of this or point me to where i need to go it'd be much appreciated :)

peace be with you
Kim

God bless you Kimber and I pray God guides you in your search. If you would like a great website with so much information on what we believe I suggest this first! http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

My goodness, I could look in there for a long long time and still find great resources. It is one of the sites that really helped guide me.

Grace and peace to you.
 
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kimber1

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akolouthein said:
God bless you Kimber and I pray God guides you in your search. If you would like a great website with so much information on what we believe I suggest this first! http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

My goodness, I could look in there for a long long time and still find great resources. It is one of the sites that really helped guide me.

Grace and peace to you.
wow thanks for the link:) i could spend days there and still be lost:p i see some major questions coming y'alls way if you're only patient with me :)
 
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kimber1

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rnmomof7 said:
I am thinking of posting some of the Westminister Catechism.

I think that will answer many questions
i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)
 
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edie19

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kimber1 said:
i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)

Ephesians 1:4-5
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

http://www.the-highway.com/election_Boettner.html
 
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CCWoody

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kimber1 said:
i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)

Actually, my sister, the fundamental theological question is not "where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones," for only the Universalist, labeled heretics by the entire confessing church believe that God chose to save all. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Arminian "Protestants," and even we wicked Calvinists all affirm that God will only save some.

The fundamental question which divides us is upon what basis has God chosen to save.

The answer given by some is that God chose to save based upon some foreseen quality about that individual, whether a baptism performed by men or a decision/ choice made by men.

The answer given by we Calvinists is that God chose to save based upon nothing but his good pleasure to extend mercy to those who would have never chosen Him & don't deserve his grace to begin with. This is based upon numerous passages in the Bible.

Our Presbyterian confession states it thus (other Calvinist confessions use similar language) -- Scripture proofs are footnoted:

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
 
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rnmomof7

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kimber1 said:
i knew you'd be here once you saw me :)

okay just off the top of my head, TULIP. i have a question about unconditional election. this is one i can't seem to wrap my head around. how or where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones come from? and i hope you know i mean no disrespect this is just a tough one for me :)


Kim my life has become very busy lately with a several things going on at church ( the death of a beloved elder for one)
And with family issues.

Woody's answer is excellent and I will touch bases with you later.

Love ya !
 
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kimber1

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CCWoody said:
Actually, my sister, the fundamental theological question is not "where does the idea that God only chooses to save certain ones," for only the Universalist, labeled heretics by the entire confessing church believe that God chose to save all. Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Arminian "Protestants," and even we wicked Calvinists all affirm that God will only save some.

The fundamental question which divides us is upon what basis has God chosen to save.

The answer given by some is that God chose to save based upon some foreseen quality about that individual, whether a baptism performed by men or a decision/ choice made by men.

The answer given by we Calvinists is that God chose to save based upon nothing but his good pleasure to extend mercy to those who would have never chosen Him & don't deserve his grace to begin with. This is based upon numerous passages in the Bible.

Our Presbyterian confession states it thus (other Calvinist confessions use similar language) -- Scripture proofs are footnoted:

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.[11]

VI. As God has appointed the elect unto glory, so has He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[12] Wherefore, they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[13] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified,[14] and kept by His power, through faith, unto salvation.[15] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[16]

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praised of His glorious justice.[17]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[18] that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[19] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;[20] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[21]
okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?

another question, are most Calvinists Presbytarian or are there Calvinists in all different denoms?

okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)

*headed back to the link given to find some more questions :)*
 
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Imblessed

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kimber1 said:
okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?
Kimber, we all are born "damned"! God chooses to save a multitude we cannot number.
Let me ask you something. If God "looked" through time, saw who was going to "choose" Him and elected these individuals based on their choice, why then, did he choose to let the others be born? Isn't He in effect "damning" some anyway, by letting them be born, KNOWING they will never choose Him? Unless you are a universalist, there is no way around the problem that there will be many millions of people over the years going to hell, and God knows it before they are even born--so you cannot claim that the calvinist's view of predestination is any more "mean" than an arminian's can you?
another question, are most Calvinists Presbytarian or are there Calvinists in all different denoms?
I am baptist, and there are some other denominations here to, but I'd say the majority of calvinists are probably presbyterian. I can tell you that there are denominations where there are very, very few, if any, calvinists. But yes, you can find calvinists in most denominations.

okay againsomething about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)
We believe in Preservation of the Saints, which is a bit different from OSAS; we do not believe that one can say the "magic words" and not actually change ones heart and attitude and get to heaven. We also do not believe that if one does profess faith, but dies without faith, that one was ever saved to begin with. Does that make sense?

Keep asking those questions! :wave:
 
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kimber1

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Imblessed said:
Kimber, we all are born "damned"! God chooses to save a multitude we cannot number.
Let me ask you something. If God "looked" through time, saw who was going to "choose" Him and elected these individuals based on their choice, why then, did he choose to let the others be born? Isn't He in effect "damning" some anyway, by letting them be born, KNOWING they will never choose Him? Unless you are a universalist, there is no way around the problem that there will be many millions of people over the years going to hell, and God knows it before they are even born--so you cannot claim that the calvinist's view of predestination is any more "mean" than an arminian's can you?
heh well i have to admit when i was reading through a link about the universalist view i was kind of struggling with that one bc i'm not a universalist but i really don't like the idea of not all being saved. i was always brought up with teh concept that God desired ALL to come to Him.


We believe in Preservation of the Saints, which is a bit different from OSAS; we do not believe that one can say the "magic words" and not actually change ones heart and attitude and get to heaven. We also do not believe that if one does profess faith, but dies without faith, that one was ever saved to begin with. Does that make sense?

Keep asking those questions! :wave:
okay so you're saying that once you profess your belief that your faith should show those fruits and if not then it wasn't a "true conversion"? right?
 
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Imblessed

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kimber1 said:
okay here's what's tugging at me. with the concept of the elect, where does free will come into play?
I don't care for the concept of free will, personally, because to take this whole "free will" concept to it's logical conclusion is to imply that God is NOT in control at all, which is unbiblical to say the least, and (IMO) heretical at worst(that God is not omnipotent, or omnipresent)

Here's the way I see it.

It's those who are unregenerate who do not have free will, because they are slaves to their sins, sons of the devil, and only have the ability to choose against God. We who are saved, have more of a free will because we can make decisions for God or for ourselves. Does that make sense?

A person will only choose that which is most desirable at any given moment, and to an unregenerate person, they never desire to choose God.

But to those God has chosen, we now have the ability to choose Him, and we now have the heart and desire, so we do. And after God changes our hearts, we make choices every day--some good(because we are now able to choose good) and some bad(because we still have the sin nature, and there are still habits and desires to overcome)

When I say good and bad, I'm not talking about good and bad as we understand it, or good and bad "in totality". Even unregenerate people do "good" things everyday. There are very "good" people who are unsaved, we will all agree. But their good actions are based on selfish reasons--love of self, societal gain, desire for recognition, etc etc. These acts are not good enough for God because they are not done out of love for Him and desire to please Him--and because of that, they are not actually "good" at all. If one was able to please God just be being "a good person" there would be no need for Jesus' atonement.

I've heard over and over again--"it's a gift, but you have to accept it", or "God is a gentleman, he'd never force you to believe", or "we are robots, if we are forced to believe" but that's not true, any of it. God doesn't force us to believe against our wishes, He's not twisting our arms! What He does do is reach down and turn our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, allowing us to see His beauty and making us capable of choosing Him. We all freely chose God. For some of us, it was easy--for others, He had to fight for it, but in the end, we all willingly and freely used our will to choose Him. It just took God opening our hearts to His beauty and love first.
 
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Imblessed

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kimber1 said:
Imblessed said:
heh well i have to admit when i was reading through a link about the universalist view i was kind of struggling with that one bc i'm not a universalist but i really don't like the idea of not all being saved. i was always brought up with teh concept that God desired ALL to come to Him.
None of us like the idea of not all being saved, but it's fact. Think about it, if God truly "desired" all to come to Him, don't you think He could accomplish that? The mere fact that he allows those who will never come to Him to be born in the first place should make you stop and think. Why would He do that? Allow those who will never come to Him to be born? Maybe, just maybe because it serves His purpose. He sees the big picture, not us.


okay so you're saying that once you profess your belief that your faith should show those fruits and if not then it wasn't a "true conversion"? right?
Yes, fruit is proof of salvation. Now, not everyone is going to have the same amount of fruit, or the same kind. And there will be some who have the appearance of fruit, but not the heart change and some who will convince themselves that if they are good enough, then God will have to let them into heaven. Those are ones God will judge, we cannot. For some, I realize that opens up a whole 'nother can of worms, but we humans are capable of really decieving ourselves and others......
 
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kimber1

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so do Calvinists not subscribe to free will or is that just a persoanl reflection from you personally? what i mean is you say we can choose either good or bad and we do this every day. that to me is free will right? we have free will to choose to sin or to do the right thing and run from it yet we're all guilty of it every day of our lives.

i guess thatr's what gets me stuck on this unconditional election. i can see y'alls point in that God foreknew who would be saved, but it seems to decrease the free will aspect and that's oone of the things i struggle with.

i know i've read somewhere (probably in the CCC) that it's acceptable as a Catholic to subscribe to some of these points but right at the moment i can't remember where i read it but i also remember there being a "as long as" added to what i read and i can't recall what that was. :p

can someone explain the preservation of the Saints a bit more?
 
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Radagast

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For a totally Catholic (but fairly friendly) view on Calvinism, see http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm. I quote:

Thomas Aquinas wrote, "God wills to manifest his goodness in men: in respect to those whom he predestines, by means of his mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of his justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others.... Yet why he chooses some for glory and reprobates others has no reason except the divine will. Hence Augustine says, 'Why he draws one, and another he draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err.'"
Personally I think Calvinism represents the consistent conclusion to what Thomas Aquinas and Augustine taught.

-- Radagast
 
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Radagast

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Imblessed said:
... What He does do is reach down and turn our hearts of stone to hearts of flesh, allowing us to see His beauty and making us capable of choosing Him...
As that ultimate Calvinist document, the Canons of Dordt says:

But when God accomplishes his good pleasure in the elect, or works in them true conversion, he not only causes the gospel to be externally preached to them, and powerfully illumines their minds by his Holy Spirit, that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God; but by the efficacy of the same regenerating Spirit, pervades the inmost recesses of the man; he opens the closed, and softens the hardened heart, and circumcises that which was uncircumcised, infuses new qualities into the will, which though heretofore dead, he quickens; from being evil, disobedient and refractory, he renders it good, obedient, and pliable; actuates and strengthens it, that like a good tree, it may bring forth the fruits of good actions.

And this is the regeneration so highly celebrated in Scripture, and denominated a new creation: a resurrection from the dead, a making alive, which God works in us without our aid. But this is in no wise effected merely by the external preaching of the gospel, by moral suasion, or such a mode of operation, that after God has performed his part, it still remains in the power of man to be regenerated or not, to be converted, or to continue unconverted; but it is evidently a supernatural work, most powerful, and at the same time most delightful, astonishing, mysterious, and ineffable; not inferior in efficacy to creation, or the resurrection from the dead, as the Scripture inspired by the author of this work declares; so that all in whose heart God works in this marvelous manner, are certainly, infallibly, and effectually regenerated, and do actually believe. - Whereupon the will thus renewed, is not only actuated and influenced by God, but in consequence of this influence, becomes itself active. Wherefore also, man is himself rightly said to believe and repent, by virtue of that grace received.


-- Radagast
 
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Imblessed

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kimber1 said:
so do Calvinists not subscribe to free will or is that just a persoanl reflection from you personally? what i mean is you say we can choose either good or bad and we do this every day. that to me is free will right? we have free will to choose to sin or to do the right thing and run from it yet we're all guilty of it every day of our lives.
we have free will right up until it goes against God's Will. We are not free enough to change what God ordains. Taking free will to it's logical conclusion leads you right to Open Theism, which is heretical by any standard. God is soveriegn. Whether you believe His is soveriegn because He somehow looks through time and sees who is going to accept Him and "plans" accordingly, or you believe He is sovereign because He IS God and sees the big picture and ordains all that is to happen is beside the point. I think it's important, but it doesn't change the fact that He KNOWS all, and not one person on earth can change what He knows or suprise Him. Look at it this way---BIG PICTURE(God's view), No free will because we cannot change what will be LITTLE PICTURE(man's view)-- free will in that we make choices everyday based on lots of things, we are not robots, we choose right and wrong all the time

i guess thatr's what gets me stuck on this unconditional election. i can see y'alls point in that God foreknew who would be saved, but it seems to decrease the free will aspect and that's oone of the things i struggle with.
it depends on how far you are willing to go with the whole free will theory. I don't feel like I'm a robot. Calvinists are not fatalists, we are not saying that people can't choice, or are forced to choose against their will.
i know i've read somewhere (probably in the CCC) that it's acceptable as a Catholic to subscribe to some of these points but right at the moment i can't remember where i read it but i also remember there being a "as long as" added to what i read and i can't recall what that was. :p
I don't know enough of cathlicism to know one way or another...sorry.
can someone explain the preservation of the Saints a bit more?
I'll try to let someone else do that. I'm not so good at explaining that...
 
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kimber1 said:
okay i can see from Scripture where the elect idea comes from but i guess the problem i have is thinking that God would somehow "damn" someone just 'because'. or is it that y'all would say God knew in His infinite wisodm before all of time that these people would always reject Him and never come to Him?


Morning Kim,

Finally a bit of a break...

We have to realize that ALL men without exception deserved to be damned.
I think some of what we hear in the pulpits today implied that God OWES every man a chance to be saved.
Some would say that is only "fair". but see what is fair is that all men go to hell.
So God is not fair, because He has ordained that some men will be saved even though they do not deserve it .
We call that Mercy . Mercy is getting what you do not deserve.
One has to be tried and found guilty BEFORE you can get mercy, so all of us have been tried and found guilty.

We can not do things to change that decree. Just like a man that was found guilty of a crime depends solely on the judge to give mercy.
If he goes to jail and does "good time" and does all the right things, they may let him out early for good behavior, but that is not unconditional mercy.The stain of the crime remain and his release is conditional.
The Bible tells us God has mercy on us, we can do nothing to "earn that " . It is all His grace and His mercy..

God tells us that He "will have mercy on whom I will have Mercy" ( Romans 9)

He has known for all eternity the name of every man and woman He will save. Our names are written on His hand.

The next thing we are sometimes asked is will God turn away the non elect that want to come to Him.

God turns away no one that comes to Him, as many as WILL, He saves.

The key word there is will.
The non elect will never chose to repent and believe without the grace of God drawing them and
(No one can come to me unless the Father draw him John 6).

another question, are most Calvinists Presbytarian or are there Calvinists in all different denoms?

There are lots of Calvinist denominations
okay again something about the elect. i'm assuming y'all believe in OSAS correct? in that once you're an elect nothing you ever do could cause you to fall from Grace right? but do you still see it neccessary to confess your sins? (i know that sounds kind of a dumb question but i'm trying to learn)

*headed back to the link given to find some more questions :)*

Kim, one thing about the saved is we have the Holy Spirit to lead us into truth and to convict us of our sin.

We confess our sins not because we fear damnation, but because we so love the father we do not want our fellowship with Him impaired in any way .
When we sin the weight of that sin pulls us to our knees.

We believe once we have been saved we have the ability not to sin, something we did not have in the adamic nature.
 
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