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That's the problem though, the traditions of men took over. The "church" (the body of Christ) are the born-again believers, worshipping God in Spirit and Truth, not any particular denomination. It's something God builds, not man, for His plan and purpose.Ideally - everyone "Should" be saying "the denomination I belong to has the most correct doctrine of all denominations"
Sheer assertion. Jesus The Prophet had to face the doctrinal errors of three Sola Scriptura parties: the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law. Paul was a Pharisee who was converted by a (subjective) vision/revelation on the Road to Damascus from Sola Scriptura to the primacy of Direct Revelation (prophecy). He never looked back. He quickly became a prophet who never again regressed back to the dark ages of Sola Scriptura. After all that, you seriously think he counseled his Berean converts to walk in Sola Scriptura? Really? Assuming the Bereans were wise, they did their best to study the Scriptures under the Light of the Holy Spirit (Direct Revelation). Obviously the Bereans did not yet have as much Light as the prophet Paul, but surely they availed of what Light they had.Acts 17:11 shows how some NT saints were using sola-scriptura to avoid false doctrine. "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF" those things spoken to them by the apostle Paul "were SO"
Sheer assertion. Jesus understood the Scriptures better than His contemporaries in virtue of prophethood. Furthermore, His use of Scripture in a debate is not proof of a Sola-Scriptura mentality. Take me for example. I always use Scripture in debates but am certainly no advocate of Sola Scriptura.Mark 7:6-13 -- Christ demonstrates how the sola scriptura method is used to expose and refute the false doctrines that crept in via various tradition in His day.
Whilst I won't disagree with principle here, I will say this is not a simplistic or universal reality not least because to do so would mean I would be judging from my own intellect rather than the Spirit's guidance.It's a bit of a catch-22. We need the Light of the Holy Spirit to fix our doctrine, but He is unlikely to provide His presence because most leaders are broadcasting the lie that they already know for sure what the Scriptures teach. One cannot optimistically expect a mighty outpouring of the Spirit upon an intellectually dishonest church. And so in darkness we will remain until Jesus comes back.
Interesting if seriously flawed contention that Paul operated from "sola scriptura" to "direct revelation"Sheer assertion. Jesus The Prophet had to face the doctrinal errors of three Sola Scriptura parties: the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law. Paul was a Pharisee who was converted by a (subjective) vision/revelation on the Road to Damascus from Sola Scriptura to the primacy of Direct Revelation (prophecy). He never looked back. He quickly became a prophet who never again regressed back to the dark ages of Sola Scriptura. After all that, you seriously think he counseled his Berean converts to walk in Sola Scriptura? Really? Assuming the Bereans were wise, they did their best to study the Scriptures under the Light of the Holy Spirit (Direct Revelation). Obviously the Bereans did not yet have as much Light as the prophet Paul, but surely they availed of what Light they had.
The Holy Spirit's guidance .. just like the fruits of the Spirit is God's work in us, so it is also his work through us.If we are called to do the work God calls us to and scripture thoroughly equips us to do so, what more do we need to do God's work?
Of course... we cannot find truth unless the Holy Spirit leads us to it... even in scripture!The Holy Spirit's guidance .. just like the fruits of the Spirit is God's work in us, so it is also his work through us.
Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
Um...That's exactly what I said. Guidance by the Holy Spirit is Direct Revelation. Prior to conversion Paul was all about Sola Scriptura resulting, of course, in doctrinal errors.Interesting if seriously flawed contention that Paul operated from "sola scriptura" to "direct revelation"
His error wasn't that he operated from SS but rather that he operated from his own intellectual application of SS rather than be guided by the Holy Spirit.
Again, citing Scripture in a treatise or debate is not proof of Sola Scriptura. I myself cite Scripture in all my debates.We can see this fact from not only the MANY times Paul directly quoted from the OT but also his firm conviction that we only need scripture to do all the works God has for us!
What we need is prophecy. Read that verse again. The expression "man of God" is an OT expression for a prophet. What Paul is saying is that, in the hands of a prophet, Scripture is a useful and productive pedagogical instrument. In the hands of a fallible Bible scholar (a Sola-Scriptura scholar), Scriptura is potentially a recipe for disaster."All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the [man] of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2Ti 3:16-17.
If we are called to do the work God calls us to and scripture thoroughly equips us to do so, what more do we need to do God's work?
Oh I see. Paul had it wrong at 1 Cor 14:1. And 2000 years of endless doctrinal division have proven that Sola Scriptura succeeds brilliantly, correct?If we are called to do the work God calls us to and scripture thoroughly equips us to do so, what more [than Scripture] do we need to do God's work?
(Sigh). Again. Sheer assertion. You have no proof that the Bereans sought to study the Scripture via scholarly exegesis alone and thus without the Light of the Holy Spirit (aka Direct Revelation).Bereans??? Luke commended the Bereans for testing Paul's words, the very words that would be written in God's "living and active" word. Why would that principle be endorsed by the Apostle Luke, if it's not something we all ought to do?
Jesus points out in Matt 22 and in Mark 7:6-13 that they were "sola tradition" parties when scripture refuted their preferences and "commandments of men" as Jesus called it. I don't see a good way to conflate that with the Act 17:11 statement for sola scriptura testing of Paul's teaching being affirmed by Luke.Sheer assertion. Jesus The Prophet had to face the doctrinal errors of three Sola Scriptura parties: the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law.
Paul was singularly "sola scriptura" as we see in Heb 3 as he quotes the OT saying "The Holy Spirit says" to make his case and in Eph 6:1-2 he quotes from the OT --- THE TEN COMM to make his point rather than just 'Hey I have an idea -- I say this".Paul was a Pharisee who was converted by a (subjective) vision/revelation on the Road to Damascus from Sola Scriptura to the primacy of Direct Revelation (prophecy). He never looked back. He quickly became a prophet who never again regressed back to the dark ages of Sola Scriptura.
They were affirmed and approved "these were more NOBLE minded than those in Thessalonica because they STUDIED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul WERE SO" when the OTHER option was "listen to your religious leaders who already condemned Paul".After all that, you seriously think he counseled his Berean converts to walk in Sola Scriptura?
Sheer assertion. Jesus understood the Scriptures better than His contemporaries in virtue of prophethood.
IT is the demonstration of "how it is done" and shows its effectiveness when debating a hostile audience. Allowing more neutral unbiased observers to "get the point" easily. Pretty much how the Protesting Catholics also did it in the Protestant Reformation.Furthermore, His use of Scripture in a debate is not proof of a Sola-Scriptura
Take me for example. I always use Scripture in debates but am certainly no advocate of Sola Scriptura.
True. And we see how that is "Fixed" -- in Mark 7:6-13 and Matt 22 - where Christ shows that man-made traditions and ignorance about Bible teaching among church leaders is addressed "sola scriptura". Notice that in His case it results in many converted to Christianity but also results in the Jews excommunicating the Christians.That's the problem though, the traditions of men took over.
True - but their guide is scripture - the Word of God. And as you noted - all groups will have Christians claiming that same lead-by-God experience even though they hold to views strongly opposed by those in other groups.The "church" (the body if Christ) are the born-again believers, worshipping God in Spirit and Truth
I have found many people can't (or won't) take the entire bible as God's Word... often cherry-picking to suit their own preconceived notions about God's love or God's judgement, particularly surrounding obedience and salvation. Sometimes the bible can seem contradictory in parts, but in context, taken all-together, it's really not as complicated as we humans make it...True - but their guide is scripture - the Word of God. And as you noted - all groups will have Christians claiming that same lead-by-God experience even though they hold to views strongly opposed by those in other groups.
I wasn't quoting Paul's use of scripture in support of SS rather demonstrating that Paul Himself quoted scripture with no reference to "direct revelation" to set Paul's use of scripture in context.Again, citing Scripture in a treatise or debate is not proof of Sola Scriptura. I myself cite Scripture in all my debates.
Firstly, the NT term "man of God" is not found anywhere in the OT.... nowhere! The NT says here "theos anthrōpos" and the conjecture that this is the same as the OT term "ish Elohim" is just that, conjecture. In fact, the term "man of God" is only found in Timothy in the NTWhat we need is prophecy. Read that verse again. The expression "man of God" is an OT expression for a prophet. What Paul is saying is that, in the hands of a prophet, Scripture is a useful and productive pedagogical instrument. In the hands of a fallible Bible scholar (a Sola-Scriptura scholar), Scriptura is potentially a recipe for disaster.
That verse is from a letter written to the prophet Timothy - it wasn't written to the whole church. Joshua became a prophet under Moses' tutelage. Similarly, Timothy presumably became a prophet under Paul's tutelage.
Here's what Paul commanded the whole church - it certainly wasn't Sola Scriptura:
"Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" (1 Corinthians 14:1).
It's sad when someone tries to resort to the "we're better than you argument" as some kind of evidence of being better. I could resort that 2,000 years of "sola ecclessia" hasn't exactly fared well because it hasn't even produced unity amongst those who believe in it, but then it's likely you'd try to jump to the defense and it would get silly.All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.Oh I see. Paul had it wrong at 1 Cor 14:1. And 2000 years of endless doctrinal division have proven that Sola Scriptura succeeds brilliantly, correct?
If that's the scripture you use to contend that Paul didn't teach SS then you've connected two dots that aren't connected.Here's what Paul commanded the whole church - it certainly wasn't Sola Scriptura:
"Earnestly pursue love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy" (1 Corinthians 14:1).
These traditions were doctrinal errors evolved from scholarly analysis of the Scriptures (Sola Scritpura). Same problem exists in the chuch today.Jesus points out in Matt 22 and in Mark 7:6-13 that they were "sola tradition" parties when scripture refuted their preferences and "commandments of men" as Jesus called it. I don't see a good way to conflate that with the Act 17:11 statement for sola scriptura testing of Paul's teaching being affirmed by Luke.
Again, the citation of a verse isn't proof of Sola Scriptura.Paul was singularly "sola scriptura" as we see in Heb 3 as he quotes the OT saying "The Holy Spirit says" to make his case and in Eph 6:1-2 he quotes from the OT --- THE TEN COMM to make his point rather than just 'Hey I have an idea -- I say this".
Again, the citation of a verse isn't proof of Sola Scriptura.They were affirmed and approved "these were more NOBLE minded than those in Thessalonica because they STUDIED THE SCRIPTURES DAILY to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul WERE SO" when the OTHER option was "listen to your religious leaders who already condemned Paul".
Again - I don't see how this is confusing in the least.
Strawman. Earlier I warned that you should be asking the question, When can I trust a prophet or prophecy? Instead of asking that question, it's much easier to fixate on strawmen, isn't it?None of Jesus' enemies took the position "you are a true prophet from God so all your views are correct". It is nonsensical to suggest that this is how their discussions went.
Again, the citation of a verse isn't proof of Sola Scriptura.Jesus uses irrefutable sola scriptura arguments in both Matt 22 and in Mark 7 to slam hammer the traditions of the leadership of the One True Nation-Church started by God at Sinai - and does it "sola scriptura" which is how we are to do it.
I haven't made a false dichotomy. You're just not grasping my dichotomy as yet. Let me clarify.You seem to suggest that "Sola Scriptura" means "Ignore the author of scripture- the Holy Spirit - try not to have any application of scripture inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit" which is a false dichotomy in my POV. It is not found anywhere in scripture.
All Sola Scriptura proponents pay lip service to the need for the Holy Spirit. In practice this actually amounts to nothing, because they have no real drive to zealously and wholeheartedly seek Direct Revelation - many of them don't even believe in it. They consider it satisfactory, nay, even obligatory to base their doctrines on exegesis. "I've studied my Bible, so don't try to tell me that my doctrines might be mistaken."You seem to suggest that "Sola Scriptura" means "Ignore the author of scripture- the Holy Spirit - try not to have any application of scripture inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit" which is a false dichotomy in my POV. It is not found anywhere in scripture.
The problem here is that you have little understanding of who Jesus was... and seemingly because you read the scriptures from a modern Greco-Roman understanding rather than from a Jewish lens. Jesus was Jewish! He was born a Jew, learnt as a Jew, lived as a Jew, spoke mainly to Jewish people in their Jewish culture and died as a Jew. If you don't understand the Jewish lens, you don't understand the real Jesus.Sheer assertion. Jesus The Prophet had to face the doctrinal errors of three Sola Scriptura parties: the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the law.
Interesting point but somewhat flawed.Sheer assertion. Jesus understood the Scriptures better than His contemporaries in virtue of prophethood. Furthermore, His use of Scripture in a debate is not proof of a Sola-Scriptura mentality. Take me for example. I always use Scripture in debates but am certainly no advocate of Sola Scriptura.
If each time a verse that refutes your suggestion is quoted - you dismiss it (instead of addressing it) - then you could always end up with "so then no verse refutes my POV". I don't see how that is a compelling solution.Again, the citation of a verse isn't proof of Sola Scriptura.
Again, the citation of a verse isn't proof of Sola Scriptura.
Again, the citation of a verse isn't proof of Sola Scriptura.
On the contrary -I haven't made a false dichotomy. You're just not grasping my dichotomy as yet. Let me clarify.
Sola Scriptura is the claim:
....that a voice, vision, or spirit is never authoritative/self-authenticating in itself (contrary to Paul's experience on the Road to Damascus).
....and therefore must be corroborated by a scholarly analysis of Scripture,
No that's your misunderstanding of SS. SS claim is that scripture is our ultimate authority. In other words, nothing can contradict scripture and scripture is our ultimate reference.Sola Scriptura is the claim:
....that a voice, vision, or spirit is never authoritative/self-authenticating in itself (contrary to Paul's experience on the Road to Damascus).
....and therefore must be corroborated by a scholarly analysis of Scripture, one must demonstratively prove that it concurs with Scripture.
Again. Citing Scripture isn't proof of a Sola Scriptura mentality.I wasn't quoting Paul's use of scripture in support of SS rather demonstrating that Paul Himself quoted scripture with no reference to "direct revelation" to set Paul's use of scripture in context.
Wikipedia, at least, would beg to differ:Firstly, the NT term "man of God" is not found anywhere in the OT.... nowhere!
See above.The NT says here "theos anthrōpos" and the conjecture that this is the same as the OT term "ish Elohim" is just that, conjecture. In fact, the term "man of God" is only found in Timothy in the NT
Nothing negated. Fact: the epistle was written to Timothy, not to the whole church.Secondly, there is nothing scripture that even hints that Timothy was a prophet and if he wasn't a prophet then this negates your inferred constriction that the instruction regarding scripture here is confined to prophets.
I'm not following your logic here. You're saying that I need historical evidence that the church read that verse my way? Yet it's precisely my claim that the church has misread a number of verses.The problem in this regard doesn't stop here. If indeed 1Ti was written just for prophets, then for 1,000+years the historical record of this being understood and applied as such is woefully absent. It seems nobody actually believed that then.
An assertion that seems to fly in the face of the available data. The Hebrew word for prophet translates directly to the Greek term. That's continuity, not discontinuity.Thirdly, the definition and reality of prophecy in the OT and NT is vastly different. In the OT, a prophet was chosen and directed by the Lord, whilst in the NT we are urged to seek the gift of prophesy!
False dichotomy. Anyway I'm simply pointing out that 2 Tim 3:16-17 provides no solid ground for Sola Scriptura because it can easily be understood as an application to prophets.Fourthly, to argue this letter was written simply to Timothy and, therefore, only applies to prophets is clearly contrary to much of the instruction and teaching of most of the letters to Timothy. In the absence of clear indication within the text itself, either all Timothy applies to all of us, or none of us save prophets.
False dichotomy/dilemma. I don't have to prove that all of Timothy is only for prophets. I merely need to show that, for purposes of this debate, that 2 Tim 3:16-17 is not solid ground for SS.You might like to try to argue the term "man of God" is the designation here that limits the instruction but then you'd have to argue that the whole of 1Ti 6 only applies to prophets, because prior to v11 the implication is instruction to the "man of God" and post v11 is definitely for the "man of God".
You're referring to the closing salutations to multiple people? Obviously that's not enough to go on.To ensure we didn't make that mistake, Paul shows he does not intend this to be just for prophets and that many others will read it, as he ends with "Grace be with you ALL"
I have no idea what you just said.It's sad when someone tries to resort to the "we're better than you argument" as some kind of evidence of being better. I could resort that 2,000 years of "sola ecclessia" hasn't exactly fared well because it hasn't even produced unity amongst those who believe in it, but then it's likely you'd try to jump to the defense and it would get silly.
SS can't be true because it is inherently a logical contradiction. I'm debating whether I care to spend the time to demonstrate it here.Look, the bible is perfect. It is God's "living and active" word but that doesn't mean that men who read it aren't without fault... so how does men with sin reading the bible and squabbling means SS can't be true?
Dots not connected? Prophecy is an authority of itself. If that weren't true, Moses couldn't have written any Scriptures. He would have had to say, "I can't write down what these prophetic voices/visions are telling me because I first need to do a scholarly analysis of Scripture to corroborate them." Oh wait. Since there was no scripture at that time, prophecy must be authoritative/self-authenticating. I almost forgot.If [1 Cor 14:1] is the scripture you use to contend that Paul didn't teach SS then you've connected two dots that aren't connected.
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