Sola Scripturists guide on the authority of the Bible

[Standing Up]

So the church has no role of authority or instruction?

This type of comment makes me smile. We are the true church.

 

[sunlover1]

Well, I wouldn't say that is what 'many' sects believe, as not many sects have apostolic succession of bishops, therefore those who claim to have apostolic tradition without the former are automatically disqualified from possessing apostolic tradition (oral).

I remembered someone mentioned that on another thread, saying that
if there is no bishop then the church is not legit .. And my answer
was, "Well what if we have God, does that count?" (something like lol)

So yeah, what is AT in comparison to the promise of God, the Holy Spirit!
And if it's not enough that God dwells inside of us:
We have the Messiah, interceding on our behalf! (Gets better and better baby!)
We have the Written Word of God, lol (oh man God is good!)
We have the assurance that IF any man lack wisdom, He can ask
His Father who WILL give HIm wisdom!!! Glory to God!!
We have the ability to hear the very voice of GOD! (His sheep be blessed man!)
We have...promises and we have God speaking to us, and we have an unction
from the Holy one and we have been given everything we could need for life and godliness..

I think that the logic and hand of God in the process can be shown from scripture, as it was God's plan at one time to transfer apostolic teaching by mouth and by writings, which scripture attests to. I just don't see any proof in the bible that we are not to continue traditions that have been handed down to us by the apostles, however.

You do what you gotta do guy. I can't do it. And if i did, which would I
choose and how ? kwim? One says this, another says that...

No, I MUST stick with God's Spirit and His Word and let God lead me to any
teacher or mentor or pastor HE has put over me.

As always, thanks for being honest, I wouldn't expect anything less from you, sis.

God bless you Brother Ortho.

I like your slogan btw, kinda catchy

 

[razeontherock]

Did we ever finish that conversation on AS or let it go?

I'm pretty sure either would be a rule violation?

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Did we ever finish that conversation on AS or let it go? IIRC, we had a conflict with RC and EO's definition/practice.

I haven't seen any definitions of AS from the RC side (unless I missed something) after that maybe we can agree on certain aspects of what it is.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

This type of comment makes me smile. We are the true church.

Just individuals, then, each of whom have equal authority and are equally qualifed in matters of the faith?

 

[sunlover1]

So the church has no role of authority or instruction?

What he says (below me lol)

This type of comment makes me smile. We are the true church.

No, really though Ortho, and I don't want to speak for "Heaven's" sake
but sure God does show in Ephesians 4 how His church is set up, how He
gives different gifts and abilities through the power of the Spirit that we might
all be edified, equipped.. (Just like studying His Word, learning to rightly divide that...
It's FOR..... the work of the ministry.

ALL of it is to point the world towards Christ,
to carry God to the broken
to BE as Christ is in this world..

IOW, He didn't die on the cross that we might go to a church
service once twice a week and bless each other! lol.

We gotta represent!

 

[Thekla]

ALL of it is to point the world towards Christ,
to carry God to the broken
to BE as Christ is in this world..

IOW, He didn't die on the cross that we might go to a church
service once twice a week and bless each other! lol.

We gotta represent!

This is part of "the point" of the Liturgy (and why, at the end of the Liturgy we are told, we are sent out).

I'm sure there are some who go to the Liturgy perfunctorily, just as I know there are many who do not - but to be nourished as His body so that nourished, they can nourish others.

 

[razeontherock]

Quick, somebody take a picture of this thread ... there's harmony, and Unity, and all that

 

[Ortho_Cat]

What are we to make of verses such as these then, which indicate that God has placed people above us in positions of authority and that we are to submit to them?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, &#8220;All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</SPAN> 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.&#8221;

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

15These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.


This is just a small sample.
</SPAN>

 

[Standing Up]

What are we to make of verses such as these then, which indicate that God has placed people above us in positions of authority and that we are to submit to them?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, &#8220;All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</SPAN> 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.&#8221;

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

15These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.


This is just a small sample.
</SPAN>

Replication, rather than staid. Grow into ... (Eph) Tis an awesome thing to stand in the presence of God (just sayin', nothin' implied, glasses and all that). Peace.

 

[sunlover1]

What are we to make of verses such as these then, which indicate that God has placed people above us in positions of authority and that we are to submit to them?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</SPAN> 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

15These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.


This is just a small sample.
</SPAN>

And it all harmonized with Ephesians 4, mentioned above.
Amen!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

What are we to make of verses such as these then, which indicate that God has placed people above us in positions of authority and that we are to submit to them?

18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them ina the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,</SPAN> 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

15These things speak and exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you.


This is just a small sample.
</SPAN>

Here's what I think we should "make" of them....


We should note that:


1. God "authorized," promised, or exempted NOTHING to ANY denomination or specific teacher. Not the RCC. Not the EO. Not the LDS. Not the LCMS. Not Brigham Young. Not Pope Benedict.


2. In the Bible, "authority" does not equal "unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R. over others so as to lord it over them as the Gentiles do.


3. The text says "leaders" not "Bishops ordained in the RCC (or EO or LDS) denominations." It does not say, "The Infallible Vicar of Christ who is whoever the RCC denomination calls 'Pope'."


4. There is a "tension" here that the RCC, LDS, and the cults seem to ignore. Over and over and over, we are ALSO told to beware of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists and those that lead many astray. We find that in the OT and NT, all across time. AND NOWHERE are the bishops of the RCC or EO or LDS exempted from that warning or possibility. NOWHERE is it stated that if one claims for self alone that self alone is incapable of error thus self alone is. In Revelation 2:2, Jesus PRAISES the Ephesian laity for doing the exact opposite of what the RCC (and the early LDS and it seems from a couple of EO's here, the EO) counsel Christians to do: He PRAISED them for regarding their teachers as accountable, for testing/norming them, arbitrating the issue, and declaring them to be FALSE. There is a TENSION here between respecting the office and the responsibility of those in it, with holding them ACCOUNTABLE for what they say and do. Not unlike respecting the Office of President of the USA yet holding Obama accountable. These verses should not be ripped out of the Bible and the "counter" ignored so that self can declare self the all-powerful, unaccountable dictator lording it over others as the Gentiles do: there's NOTHING a false teacher would demand more than such a free reign, unmitigated/unaccountable POWER, an exemption from the issue of Truth and a replacement of that with the declaration of POWER - with the response being quiet, docilic submission to that self. In the words of the great prophet Mr. Miagyi in the original Karate Kid, "Go find the balance!" Some go too far on one side and there is no authority, others to the other extreme and there is no accountability. It's not about power, it's about truth. The true teacher welcomes the light and encourages accountability - confident that God's Truth is revealed in the light. The FALSE TEACHER must shield self from the light, replace the issue of truth with the power self alone claims that self alone has, and reject accountability.








.

 

[sunlover1]

4. There is a "tension" here that the RCC, LDS, and the cults seem to ignore. Over and over and over, we are ALSO told to beware of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists and those that lead many astray. We find that in the OT and NT, all across time. AND NOWHERE are the bishops of the RCC or EO or LDS exempted from that warning or possibility. NOWHERE is it stated that if one claims for self alone that self alone is incapable of error thus self alone is. In Revelation 2:2, Jesus PRAISES the Ephesian laity for doing the exact opposite of what the RCC (and the early LDS and it seems from a couple of EO's here, the EO) counsel Christians to do: He PRAISED them for regarding their teachers as accountable, for testing/norming them, arbitrating the issue, and declaring them to be FALSE. There is a TENSION here between respecting the office and the responsibility of those in it, with holding them ACCOUNTABLE for what they say and do. Not unlike respecting the Office of President of the USA yet holding Obama accountable. These verses should not be ripped out of the Bible and the "counter" ignored so that self can declare self the all-powerful, unaccountable dictator lording it over others as the Gentiles do: there's NOTHING a false teacher would demand more than such a free reign, unmitigated/unaccountable POWER, an exemption from the issue of Truth and a replacement of that with the declaration of POWER - with the response being quiet, docilic submission to that self. In the words of the great prophet Mr. Miagyi in the original Karate Kid, "Go find the balance!" Some go too far on one side and there is no authority, others to the other extreme and there is no accountability. It's not about power, it's about truth. The true teacher welcomes the light and encourages accountability - confident that God's Truth is revealed in the light. The FALSE TEACHER must shield self from the light, replace the issue of truth with the power self alone claims that self alone has, and reject accountability.
.

This is a good point CJ.
And this is why we must let God Himself be the bishop of our souls.
He is perfectly able and willing to speak to His people and lead us
out of temptations and evil.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

4. There is a "tension" here that the RCC, LDS, and the cults seem to ignore. Over and over and over, we are ALSO told to beware of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists and those that lead many astray. We find that in the OT and NT, all across time. AND NOWHERE are the bishops of the RCC or EO or LDS exempted from that warning or possibility. NOWHERE is it stated that if one claims for self alone that self alone is incapable of error thus self alone is. In Revelation 2:2, Jesus PRAISES the Ephesian laity for doing the exact opposite of what the RCC (and the early LDS and it seems from a couple of EO's here, the EO) counsel Christians to do: He PRAISED them for regarding their teachers as accountable, for testing/norming them, arbitrating the issue, and declaring them to be FALSE. There is a TENSION here between respecting the office and the responsibility of those in it, with holding them ACCOUNTABLE for what they say and do. Not unlike respecting the Office of President of the USA yet holding Obama accountable. These verses should not be ripped out of the Bible and the "counter" ignored so that self can declare self the all-powerful, unaccountable dictator lording it over others as the Gentiles do: there's NOTHING a false teacher would demand more than such a free reign, unmitigated/unaccountable POWER, an exemption from the issue of Truth and a replacement of that with the declaration of POWER - with the response being quiet, docilic submission to that self. In the words of the great prophet Mr. Miagyi in the original Karate Kid, "Go find the balance!" Some go too far on one side and there is no authority, others to the other extreme and there is no accountability. It's not about power, it's about truth. The true teacher welcomes the light and encourages accountability - confident that God's Truth is revealed in the light. The FALSE TEACHER must shield self from the light, replace the issue of truth with the power self alone claims that self alone has, and reject accountability.


.

This is a good point CJ.
And this is why we must let God Himself be the bishop of our souls.
He is perfectly able and willing to speak to His people and lead us
out of temptations and evil.

Thanks....


IMO, what we tend to see from the RCC (and early LDS and in the "cults" known to me) is a very absolute, very extreme embrace of ONE SIDE of this - and that defined in terms of power, lordship; unmitigated and unaccountable power (the flip side being docilic submission). This is the foundation of the RCC and the point it (and faithful Catholics) will fight for above all else: the unmitigated, unaccountable, unbalanced P.O.W.E.R. of the RCC to lord it over all others, to control. Yes, the RCC likes to use the word "authority" but it doesn't mean such in the usual way of permission but in the sense of POWER, CONTROL, LORDSHIP - understood in the most extreme, radical sense possible. It's entirely out of balance. And in spite of the hard work of a few EO's here, I'm STILL of the opinion that the EO is much better in this regard - but still too far on the POWER trip....

IMO, some do much the same thing, too. Probably none as radically as the RCC and early LDS, but yes - I've met some that appoint SELF as the sole, all-powerful, infallible/unaccountable Lord of All - exempt from pretty much everything except unmitigated and divine POWER. This is by no means unseen in Protestantism. What makes those "Protestants" less extreme than our LDS/RCC friends is AT LEAST they tend to be UNDER Scripture (even if their own interpretation of such), there is at least SOMETHING objective and knowable to which they claim accountability - making them less radical than the RCC, early LDS, and the cults that point (at most - at best!) to self: the authority of self, the tradition of self, the power of self.





.

 

[sunlover1]

This is by no means unseen in Protestantism.

Agreed.

 

[Heavens]

Here's what I think we should "make" of them....


We should note that:


1. God "authorized," promised, or exempted NOTHING to ANY denomination or specific teacher. Not the RCC. Not the EO. Not the LDS. Not the LCMS. Not Brigham Young. Not Pope Benedict.


2. In the Bible, "authority" does not equal "unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R. over others so as to lord it over them as the Gentiles do.


3. The text says "leaders" not "Bishops ordained in the RCC (or EO or LDS) denominations." It does not say, "The Infallible Vicar of Christ who is whoever the RCC denomination calls 'Pope'."


4. There is a "tension" here that the RCC, LDS, and the cults seem to ignore. Over and over and over, we are ALSO told to beware of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists and those that lead many astray. We find that in the OT and NT, all across time. AND NOWHERE are the bishops of the RCC or EO or LDS exempted from that warning or possibility. NOWHERE is it stated that if one claims for self alone that self alone is incapable of error thus self alone is. In Revelation 2:2, Jesus PRAISES the Ephesian laity for doing the exact opposite of what the RCC (and the early LDS and it seems from a couple of EO's here, the EO) counsel Christians to do: He PRAISED them for regarding their teachers as accountable, for testing/norming them, arbitrating the issue, and declaring them to be FALSE. There is a TENSION here between respecting the office and the responsibility of those in it, with holding them ACCOUNTABLE for what they say and do. Not unlike respecting the Office of President of the USA yet holding Obama accountable. These verses should not be ripped out of the Bible and the "counter" ignored so that self can declare self the all-powerful, unaccountable dictator lording it over others as the Gentiles do: there's NOTHING a false teacher would demand more than such a free reign, unmitigated/unaccountable POWER, an exemption from the issue of Truth and a replacement of that with the declaration of POWER - with the response being quiet, docilic submission to that self. In the words of the great prophet Mr. Miagyi in the original Karate Kid, "Go find the balance!" Some go too far on one side and there is no authority, others to the other extreme and there is no accountability. It's not about power, it's about truth. The true teacher welcomes the light and encourages accountability - confident that God's Truth is revealed in the light. The FALSE TEACHER must shield self from the light, replace the issue of truth with the power self alone claims that self alone has, and reject accountability.
.

It's pretty easy for people to see who the false teachers are... except for those who follow them.

 

[ivebeenshown]

It's pretty easy for people to see who the false teachers are... except for those who follow them.

Philosophy lesson 1: you can believe whatever you want to believe and never be proven wrong.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Here's what I think we should "make" of them....


We should note that:


1. God "authorized," promised, or exempted NOTHING to ANY denomination or specific teacher. Not the RCC. Not the EO. Not the LDS. Not the LCMS. Not Brigham Young. Not Pope Benedict.


2. In the Bible, "authority" does not equal "unmitigated, unaccountable P.O.W.E.R. over others so as to lord it over them as the Gentiles do.


3. The text says "leaders" not "Bishops ordained in the RCC (or EO or LDS) denominations." It does not say, "The Infallible Vicar of Christ who is whoever the RCC denomination calls 'Pope'."


4. There is a "tension" here that the RCC, LDS, and the cults seem to ignore. Over and over and over, we are ALSO told to beware of false teachers, false prophets, antichrists and those that lead many astray. We find that in the OT and NT, all across time. AND NOWHERE are the bishops of the RCC or EO or LDS exempted from that warning or possibility. NOWHERE is it stated that if one claims for self alone that self alone is incapable of error thus self alone is. In Revelation 2:2, Jesus PRAISES the Ephesian laity for doing the exact opposite of what the RCC (and the early LDS and it seems from a couple of EO's here, the EO) counsel Christians to do: He PRAISED them for regarding their teachers as accountable, for testing/norming them, arbitrating the issue, and declaring them to be FALSE. There is a TENSION here between respecting the office and the responsibility of those in it, with holding them ACCOUNTABLE for what they say and do. Not unlike respecting the Office of President of the USA yet holding Obama accountable. These verses should not be ripped out of the Bible and the "counter" ignored so that self can declare self the all-powerful, unaccountable dictator lording it over others as the Gentiles do: there's NOTHING a false teacher would demand more than such a free reign, unmitigated/unaccountable POWER, an exemption from the issue of Truth and a replacement of that with the declaration of POWER - with the response being quiet, docilic submission to that self. In the words of the great prophet Mr. Miagyi in the original Karate Kid, "Go find the balance!" Some go too far on one side and there is no authority, others to the other extreme and there is no accountability. It's not about power, it's about truth. The true teacher welcomes the light and encourages accountability - confident that God's Truth is revealed in the light. The FALSE TEACHER must shield self from the light, replace the issue of truth with the power self alone claims that self alone has, and reject accountability.



.

It's pretty easy for people to see who the false teachers are... except for those who follow them.

.... and those teachers that don't permit the question, but rather insist that self alone is SO very, very special and has SO very, very much power that to even consider if they are correct is blamesphemy and a denial of God. If you aren't permitted to entertain the possibility of error you can't discover falsehood.






.

 

[sbvd]

Philosophy lesson 1: you can believe whatever you want to believe and never be proven wrong.

Grade: E-

 

[Standing Up]

.... and those teachers that don't permit the question, but rather insist that self alone is SO very, very special and has SO very, very much power that to even consider if they are correct is blamesphemy and a denial of God. If you aren't permitted to entertain the possibility of error you can't discover falsehood.






.

Paul, for example, was able to distinguish between 'thus sayeth the LORD' and 'this is my recommendation'.

Some folks seem to think they can "improve upon the apostles".