Sola Scripture

[Disciple 3]

 

[Carlos Vigil]

Which Came First?


THIS CLASSIC RIDDLE ("which came first: the chicken or the egg?") is very much to the point here. In point of time, it should be apparent that the Church long precedes the Bible as an integral collection of books, and considerably precedes even the individual books of the New Testament. Thus, it is quite certain that the Church founded by Our Lord was not "based on the Bible." The Church created by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost had no Bible as we know it... and didn't have to have it to be truly the Church. It can be said with some justification that if every single copy of the Bible in existence were destroyed, the effect upon the Church would be minimal (although the context in which such an event could occur might not be!).

But the converse is not true. If there were no Church [but we are assured this will never come to pass... "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt 16:18)], the Bible would not be sufficient to provide what is needed for our salvation. if we doubt the truth of this, we need only cast our glance over the spectacle of what happens when people attempt to create their own "churches" based upon their own, private interpretations of the Holy Scriptures

Hi Christy,
I suspect there is (continuing) a standing ovation in heaven!!!

 

[thereselittleflower]

What if the church that interprets the Bible is wrong? Do you pray that the church will be right? Or should you pray that God will give you the understanding of the Bible directly?

Yes, what if?

If you have doubts about the Church who gave you the bible being able to interpret what they canonized, then how do you know what they canonized is actually scripture?

If you believe that the Holy Spirit led the Early Church infallibly to know which written works were scipture and which were not, (and there were hundreds floating around to choose from for the New Testament) then would you not also expect that the Holy Spirit would lead the same Church to the proper understanding and interpretation of those same scriptures?

Do you believe that the bishops who determined the canon of scripture would have chosen written works that conflicted with the teaching of the Church that chose them?

The Scriptures come out from Sacred Tradition, are part of Sacred Tradition, and are understood in the fullness of Sacred Tradition. If the Holy Spirit protected and preserved the written works that make up our New Testament, then the same Holy Spirit protected and preserved the oral teachings handed down from the Apostles through the Church which together with the Sacred Scripture make up Sacred Tradition . . .

These Bishops, who determined the canon of scripture, of which the New Testament is the same as you use today, were led by the Holy Spirit in their selection and determination of canonical scripture. These same Bishops were led by the Holy Spirit in the passing down of Sacred Tradition through which we understand and interpret scripture.

The Teachings of the Church were protected and preserved . .those teaching are found in the Sacred Tradition passed down, which includes both the written and the oral Tradition.



Peace in Him!

 

[twex]

If Sola Scripture means the only source of authority should be scripture, then I completly disagree with it.

Sola Scriptura means that Scripture is a sufficient and final court of appeal in matters of faith and morals.

If Sola Scripture means that if its not in the bible, then it's ungodly, I completly AGREE with it.

Sola Scriptura only states that nothing which contradicts Scripture should be taught.

For example, if someone said that Christ is an adamant and stern judge who can only be appeased by appealing to his merciful mother, it would be said that this is a corruption of the teaching found in Scripture.

God gave us a book for a reason.

I wouldn't put it that way. That God dropped a holy book from the sky is what the Muslims believe, and they perish. Father, Son and Holy Spirit have revealed themselves in history. A book just happened to be the most effective way of preserving the testimonies of the witnesses of this revelation.

I always say the cure for HIV is not in a test tube, but in a book.

I doubt that such an attitude is conducive either to scientific progress or the compassion for the sick commanded of us, but that is off-topic.

 

[Ebb]

When Jesus was tempted by Satan in the wilderness, He quoted scripture each of the three times. I think this is a good example for us, that scripture always takes the precedence, especially when the enemy is trying to confuse us.

 

[twex]

If you believe that the Holy Spirit led the Early Church infallibly to know which written works were scipture and which were not, (and there were hundreds floating around to choose from for the New Testament) then would you not also expect that the Holy Spirit would lead the same Church to the proper understanding and interpretation of those same scriptures?

All Christians believe that the Early Church decided correctly. That doesn't necessarily entail infallibility, since fallible entities can be both correct and authoritative.

 

[indonesianpalmtree]

All Christians believe that the Early Church decided correctly. That doesn't necessarily entail infallibility, since fallible entities can be both correct and authoritative.

Did the early church "choose" correctly? Would God let a choice of man stand as His Sacred Scripture? The Scripture was picked by the Lord, they didn't pick it.

And the pope story... There are two things that I find comforting about having one leader of the church on earth. There are less folks who make mistakes

Also, Christ said that the church will never err, right? Well, the pope is the authority of the church, so he makes some of the big decisions (or rather, he tells it to us). If the spirit is in charge of the church, and the church is led by the pope, then the man cannot err.

Do you see?

That's what I think... I'm new at this .

 

[twex]

Did the early church "choose" correctly? Would God let a choice of man stand as His Sacred Scripture?

Apparently he would. Didn't the inspired authors "choose" to write what they wrote, too? Or did God turn them into mere instruments, compelling their hands to put on paper what he dictated?

And the pope story... There are two things that I find comforting about having one leader of the church on earth. There are less folks who make mistakes

Yet the less folks are in charge, the graver the impact of every single mistake they might make.

It's easy to defend an absolutist monarchy when the supreme leader is a saint like John Paul II. However, I wonder how much support papal hierocratism would have enjoyed on anonymous Internet fora during the reign of Alexander VI or Leo X, if technology had enabled the laity to have a voice then.

Also, Christ said that the church will never err, right?

Christ said that the church will prevail. A man can prevail and become a saint even if he errs in his lifetime, as long as someone puts him back on track.

 

[Christy4Christ]

Apparently he would. Didn't the inspired authors "choose" to write what they wrote, too? Or did God turn them into mere instruments, compelling their hands to put on paper what he dictated?

Yet the less folks are in charge, the graver the impact of every single mistake they might make.

It's easy to defend an absolutist monarchy when the supreme leader is a saint like John Paul II. However, I wonder how much support papal hierocratism would have enjoyed on anonymous Internet fora during the reign of Alexander VI or Leo X, if technology had enabled the laity to have a voice then.

Christ said that the church will prevail. A man can prevail and become a saint even if he errs in his lifetime, as long as someone puts him back on track.

Even as a Catholic, I have to say that you are not pulling any of this out of your ear. Your points about prior popes are well taken. I think the thing for me is that since Jesus said the gates of Hell would never pre-vail, this gives me confidance that no matter what might happen, no matter what mistakes might be made, in the end I can still trust that the church will come out alright.

 

[HisEagle]

Do you believe that the bishops who determined the canon of scripture would have chosen written works that conflicted with the teaching of the Church that chose them?

That's actually a profound and deep statement. I never thought of it like that before. Thanks!

 

[thereselittleflower]

All Christians believe that the Early Church decided correctly. That doesn't necessarily entail infallibility, since fallible entities can be both correct and authoritative.

If you don't believe they had the authority to canonize the scriptures, then on what authority do you rest that these are indeed scripture? That the Early Church did in fact decide correctly?

ALL Christians believe that the Holy SPirit LED those Bishops . . it is a schyzophrenic stance to say that the Holy Spirit led them ONLY in this and nothing else, just as it is schyzophremic to say that the Holy Spirit led them on the New Testament selection but not the Old Testament selection . .

The Old Testament canonoized by these SAME Bishops include the 7 books MISSING from Protestant bibles. .

Yet you just said that ALL Chriistians believe that the Early Church decided CORRECTLY ..

If so, why do you reject the books they decided CORRECTLY Should be there?

On what authority to do you do so?


IF the Holy Spirit led them to canonize the scrptures, then they had the AUTHORITY to do so also, otherwise, they would never have been recoginized by Christians as correct . . .


Your argument makes a false distinction that does not really exist . .


Peace in him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Did the early church "choose" correctly? Would God let a choice of man stand as His Sacred Scripture? The Scripture was picked by the Lord, they didn't pick it.

And the pope story... There are two things that I find comforting about having one leader of the church on earth. There are less folks who make mistakes

Also, Christ said that the church will never err, right? Well, the pope is the authority of the church, so he makes some of the big decisions (or rather, he tells it to us). If the spirit is in charge of the church, and the church is led by the pope, then the man cannot err.

Do you see?

That's what I think... I'm new at this .

You won't be new at this much longer!


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Apparently he would. Didn't the inspired authors "choose" to write what they wrote, too? Or did God turn them into mere instruments, compelling their hands to put on paper what he dictated?

Yet the less folks are in charge, the graver the impact of every single mistake they might make.

It's easy to defend an absolutist monarchy when the supreme leader is a saint like John Paul II. However, I wonder how much support papal hierocratism would have enjoyed on anonymous Internet fora during the reign of Alexander VI or Leo X, if technology had enabled the laity to have a voice then.

Christ said that the church will prevail. A man can prevail and become a saint even if he errs in his lifetime, as long as someone puts him back on track.

And this is why the Catholic Church does not believe that infalliblity, when it comes to the Pope, follows on every word penned or written by the Pope . . . but only in very specific instances which are fairly rare . .


so your point is greatly mitigated by this. And no doctrinal error has ever been infallibly promulgated by a Pope . . that is due to the protection of the Holy Spirit in operation in regards to the Chair of Peter . .


Peace in Him!

 

[thereselittleflower]

Do you believe that the bishops who determined the canon of scripture would have chosen written works that conflicted with the teaching of the Church that chose them?

That's actually a profound and deep statement. I never thought of it like that before. Thanks!

Then I am very glad to have in some small way given you something to ponder on. I am VERY glad you were able to see what I was saying. If you have questions about it, please don't hesitate to come to One Bread One Body here at CF to ask questions of us! We gladly welcome all who have questions about our beliefs!


Peace in Him!