• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Sola Scriptura -

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I have written this because of my love for you all. I have written this because I have prayed to the Lord Jesus with profuse tears on account of desiring the solidarity of believers who confess Jesus as Lord and Christ and believe in His name. I have written this because I desire that we may be one as the Holy Trinity is One.

I am addressing the doctrine of Sola Scriptura today, which is captivated in the following way by Martin Luther:


Unless therefore I am convinced by the testimony of Scripture, or by the clearest reasoning, unless I am persuaded by means of the passages I have quoted, and unless they thus render my conscience bound by the Word of God, I cannot and will not retract, for it is unsafe for a Christian to speak against his conscience. Here I stand, I can do no other; may God help me! Amen!

Another believer named Matthew Barrett says this about it:

...only Scripture, because it is God’s inspired Word, is our inerrant, sufficient, and final authority for the church.


If you google Sola Scriptura and read "Got Questions?" on the topic, you'll find that the writer argues that tradition is not worthless so long as it is supported by the Scriptures. He further maintains, as I'm sure many others do, that the reason that Protestants reject the Traditions of the Roman Catholic Church is because they were not based on the truth of God's word but rather on the traditions of men. With regards to this charge, I do not completely disagree, as I myself do not find in the writings of the Church Fathers, nor in the Holy Scriptures, nor in the history of the Church, any dogmatic teaching on papal supremacy and papal infallibility, nor do I find any basis for the immaculate conception as it is defined by the Roman Church, nor do I find basis for purgatory, nor is there any support for selling indulgences and applying the merits of saints towards other people so that their sins can be forgiven and be granted passage to heaven.


Of course, I do not say these things to attack the Catholics. I also don't say them so that I am communicating that I support the Protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura as purported by Luther. I am merely saying that I can sympathize with some of the objections that the reformers had towards the problematic dogmas and practices of the Roman Church during their lifetime.


Returning to the issue at hand: Sola Scriptura, which purports that only the Scriptures can be appealed to as being authoritative on matters of dogma and praxis.


I have to say, I am somewhat comforted by the view that the writer of Got Questions takes. He says this, "The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines."


I am okay with the underlying premise of sola scriptura if it does not oppose traditions that are inspired by the Holy Spirit.


I have a few questions for you.


1) Explain to me how people were able to live righteously in the sight of God, prior to Moses, without the Holy Scriptures we have canonized today. Most scholars say that Job was the earliest text of Scripture, followed by Genesis. Who wrote the core of the Old Testament? Moses. Thus, I ask you, if people were deprived of any written text known as the Holy Scriptures of God prior to the time of Moses or Job, how did they manage to live righteously, that is to say, in a manner that was pleasing to God? What scriptural authority did they appeal to with regards to walking by faith? How were they saved without the scriptures? What we see in the Biblical text is that people lived in godliness for thousands of years prior to the first Scripture ever being written down.


2) From whom do the Scriptures originate? From man or from God? Or is it both? I would say that it is both, obviously. Nevertheless, for clarity’s sake, it is evident that the Holy Spirit inspired men to write the truth about the Gospel, His Church, and His Godhead as well as other topics. Thus, if the Holy Spirit is the originator of the Divine Scriptures, do you limit the Holy Spirit by saying that He cannot also be the originator of Divine Traditions?


3) Numerous orthodox dogmas are not explicitly found in the Bible. For example, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Another example: Christ is fully God and fully man. Another example: Mary’s title of Theotokos, or Mother of God, or God Bearer. Another example: Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Sola Gratia, and Soli Deo Gloria. How about this? Christ has two natures since He is fully God and fully Man. How about this? Christ has two wills since He has two natures, being fully God and fully Man. How about this? Christ is co-eternal and consubstantial with the Father and the Holy Spirit, and there was never a time in which the Son did not exist since there was never a time in which the Father did not exist, nor was there ever a time in which the Holy Spirit did not exist. Before I go on with Trinitarian theology, I’ll stop there and mention one more dogma not explicitly taught in the Scriptures. The Lord Jesus, when St Luke says that Christ increased in wisdom and in stature, he did not mean to communicate to the reader that the King of kings and Creator of all was deficient in wisdom or in stature, for such an interpretation would be utterly blasphemous. Rather, St Luke meant to explain that the Lord Jesus’s wisdom and stature gradually increased and was not all at once made manifest. And this is no surprise because Christ did not immediately ascend the Cross when He began His ministry, but He patiently awaited the appointed time; neither did He perform miracles such as raising the dead prior to beginning His ministry, although who would deny that He, by His mere will, was more than capable of not only raising someone from the dead but also of resurrecting all who ever were dead? Forgive me, I’ll include one more dogmatic teaching. When the Lord was baptized and the Holy Spirit descended from Heaven to rest upon Jesus, and when the Father said, “This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased”, we should not understand that it was only at this moment that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit, nor should we foolishly believe that prior to this event He was not the Son of God, for in truth He was filled with the Holy Spirit and entirely the Son of God pre-eternally prior to His conception, during His gestation, after His birth, and forevermore.


4) If you think that the above-mentioned dogmas are blatantly obvious from the Scriptures, you are wrong, as this is evident by the manifold heresies that have surfaced throughout the last 2000 years. These dogmas were established by holy men of God who were led by the Holy Spirit into all Truth, whereas the teachings that oppose them were inspired by the spirit of error, that wicked serpent that desires division, strife, and all manner of confusion. Do you suppose that those heretics omitted the Divine Scriptures or that they neglected to appeal to them as the authority for their blasphemous doctrines? Are you not aware of how many faithful of the Church were led astray by wolves to believe that the Son of God was lesser than the Father in that He was not consubstantial or co-equal with the Father? How many, by a wrongful interpretation of the Holy Scriptures, believed that the Christ was not fully man, but only in appearance was the Son of God a man? Others taught that Christ was half man and half God. Others deceived many by saying that Jesus was inhabited by the Word of God only some time after the birth of Jesus of Nazareth. Still, others foolishly proposed that Christ’s natures, and therefore His wills also, were comingled and confused so that Christ only had 1 nature and 1 will. As a side note pertaining to this last heresy, we reject this notion because comingling the human nature of Christ with His Divine nature would equate to destroying the Divinity because it would mean that God was subject to change! But we know that God, being perfect and therefore impassible, cannot change, which is why His nature cannot change also. And since Christ is God, it is impossible that God’s nature became confused with a human nature.



5) Having said all of this, if Scripture is the authoritative standard by which we discern dogma, that is, the Truth of our faith, then we will never be able to know what is dogmatically true, since the Divine Writings can be misinterpreted so that they support heresies just as much as they support genuine doctrine. And in the same way that the heretics falsely accused true believers to be deceived and deceivers themselves, the elect of Christ’s Church also levied the same charge against the real brood of vipers sent by that ancient serpent, the devil. But we know that, by the Holy Spirit, the true disciples of Christ emerged victorious against those liars and ungodly men carried away by every wind of doctrine who followed their own bellies and passions rather than the Spirit of Truth. However, although this is the case (for we would not know orthodox dogma without the aforementioned claim being true), in these last times we clearly see more tares emerging in the vineyard of the Lord, striving to choke the Word with crafty lies by utilizing the Scriptures to support their demonic deceptions. Some of them are now teaching that the Holy Trinity is not a true doctrine, instead saying that there is only One Person of the Godhead manifested in three different ways. Others teach that no one can be saved unless they are baptized in the Holy Ghost, which is evidenced by speaking in tongues. And others teach that Jesus Christ was not God but a prophet, but they still consider themselves Christians. All of these liars use the Divine Scriptures to persuade ignorant people to follow them into a pit of destruction, and they are truly the blind leading the blind, are they not?


6) And tell me, what evidence is there that this doctrine of Sola Scriptura is valid? Does not the Lord plainly tell us, “And when the Holy Spirit comes, He shall lead you into all Truth”? I beg you, show me the proof of this prophecy’s fulfillment within the Protestant Reformation. You cannot. I beg you, show me the proof of this prophecy’s fulfillment within the Roman Catholic Church. You cannot. And why do I say that you cannot? Because it is as evident as the Sun shining on a cloudless day that the dogmas in each of these churches has not remained static. It is also irrefutable that dogmas have changed within each of these churches. This is particularly apparent within the Protestant sphere, for we have major irreconcilable differences between Luther, Zwingli, and Calvin. And for simplicity’s sake, I only mention but three men since time would fail me to list the hundreds and thousands of others who have devised other dogmatic schisms, all of whom claim to be led by the Holy Spirit into all Truth, all of whom believe themselves to be true disciples of Christ, all of whom consider themselves to be part of His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. For those who would argue, “We major on the majors and minor on the minors”, you must realize that this statement is unacceptable so long as you believe contradictory doctrines about Christ, His work on the Cross, the Holy Trinity, the sacraments (especially the Eucharist and baptism), apostolic succession, and soteriology, just to name a few major items.


7) But my last objection is this: I often hear from Protestants that there is no man who is perfect and infallible and always rightly dividing the Word of Truth, except Christ Jesus. To this, I say, “Amen!” Yet, how is it, my brethren, that you followed one man, a disobedient monk who disregarded his vows to God as if they meant absolutely nothing, who rebelled against the mother that bore him—that is, his church—and against his brethren and against God by issuing a public rebuke to those who were superior to him in rank, thereby exalting himself as something when he was nothing and no one. Nonetheless, this man, deluded by his insatiable pride and arrogance, making himself to be somebody, an ambassador of truth, and someone supposedly illumined by the Holy Spirit to see the truth, raised himself higher than all ecclesial authorities and deemed them erroneous and heretical, meanwhile he mocked them with his hypocritical hubris by asserting that his doctrines (as supported by his flawless understanding of the Divine Scriptures as well as his genius reasoning) were in every way more orthodox and dogmatic than what had been universally taught in the church he belonged to. This poor and exceedingly prideful man could not but attract the father of lies with the foul stench of arrogance, for he had trusted that his conscience and his reasoning were in all respects more legitimate and righteous than those that generated the doctrines of his own church for centuries. And so, instead of being humble and receiving grace from God, he rightfully received deception and delusion from the deceiver and author of confusion, Satan. What a spectacle this man was with his audacity, that he even attracted others more audacious and more cunning than himself, so that instead of unity grounded by faith and universal dogma held in unanimous agreement, we find that the hydra— which was spawned by the seed of a pawn of that wicked one, not merely possessing only a few heads, but now hideously showing itself to possess tens of thousands of heads, each of which spews out the poison of heresy throughout the world. And the tragedy of all of this is that many multitudes of people throughout the generations (not knowing that the devil’s craftiness had deceived a few most exceedingly prideful men, beginning with Luther, so that they would consider themselves special vessels of grace being led by the false brilliance of the darkened and fallen angel), have been led away by the reformers from one set of errors into another multitude of falsehoods, perhaps ones even more foolish than the first. What could be more tragic than this, since men of God, so they called themselves, considering themselves led by the Holy Spirit have perpetuated falsehoods rather than dogmatic truth? Moreover, they would emphatically affirm to all who would listen to their madness that they considered the lies they taught to the masses to be definitively supported by the Divine Scriptures.



I have written much, and I hardly expect that anyone will actually respond to my post, point for point. I also doubt that I will not be reported for “goading” or “flaming”. I do not consider my post to be this. Rather, my post is meant to spark a healthy theological debate. I raised strong points for the weak foundation for sola scriptura. It is now the incumbent’s responsibility to strongly defend their position. In order to do this, they must disprove my arguments.


First, they must provide evidence for the dogmatic doctrine of sola scriptura in light of the evidence that the Scriptures did not even exist prior to Moses or Job. And since dogma is impassible, inasmuch as God is impassible since He is the source of Truth, you must prove how this dogma existed and was necessary to live righteously during these times without the Scriptures.


Secondly, proponents of sola scriptura must prove why the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Scriptures, is limited and unable to inspire the members of the Church to institute Holy Traditions, which are not necessarily based on the Scriptures but which are not necessarily opposed to the Scriptures either.


Thirdly, proponents of sola scriptura must prove how it is valid outside of Holy Tradition since numerous heresies have originated from deceivers who relied solely on the Scriptures as their basis for generating falsehoods. Arius, Nestorius, Pelagius, all of whom were heretics: they all appealed to the authority of Scripture to conjure and support their deceptions. If the scriptures alone are the only authoritative source of truth, who determines or what is the standard by which we discern orthodox interpretations of Divine Writ versus those which are counterfeits and of the devil? You must provide an adequate answer to this question to validate sola scriptura.


Fourthly, if the Scriptures alone are the authoritative source of truth, and if a Christian can only understand the word of God by the leading of the Holy Spirit, how then are we able to determine who is truly led by the Spirit into all truth and who is led by the spirit of error into all falsehood? Sola scriptura is unable to compensate for this flaw and proponents must prove the case to be otherwise.


Fifthly, the chief mark of Christ’s Church is its unity, since it is written, “And when the Holy Spirit comes, He shall lead you into all truth”, and, “Father, I pray that they may be one as We are One”, and again, “Upon you shall I build my Church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”, and lastly, “Be of one mind, one heart, one voice” because there is only “one baptism, one resurrection” and One Church, since the body of Christ is only one. Tell me, my brethren, how is it that you believe the body of Christ to be united in Spirit while it is torn asunder by irreconcilable differences in dogmatic theology? The tens of thousands of denominations that supposedly are not different from one another (which is quite untrue!), are they not all the offspring of Luther, all of which affirm that they proclaim the truth of God’s word but which differ from other denominations, sometimes even in monumental ways? Will you not admit that sola scriptura has a major flaw in that it has the potential to spark schism and divisions, not to mention heresies?


My last point, which is not so much a question as it is an observation, is this. This doctrine of sola scriptura originated from Martin Luther. As I have explained above, this man was not credible, nor should he have been followed. Thus, to put it concisely, his doctrines are also not credible. Why, then, do you accept this doctrine of his? Do you not realize that the Church of Christ, for 15 centuries and even until now, has never believed or taught such a doctrine? Does that mean nothing to you? Do you consider the Holy Spirit not to have led the Church rightly until Martin Luther was born and decided to rebel? For over 2000 years, the Eastern Orthodox Church (although it has never known itself by this name but rather by the name of Christ’s Church, the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church), has remain static in its dogma! If you don’t believe me, look it up. Who can claim this but Christ’s Church? Not the Romans, not the Protestants; no, my friends, none of them can claim that their dogma has never changed or been amended. We, on the other hand, can emphatically assert that the Holy Spirit has revealed the True Light to Christ’s Church. Did the Roman Pope initiate a schism? Yes, although the Catholics would say contrariwise. What happened after that? Along comes another pope, Mr. Luther, and he then initiates another schism. And as I said, this abominable hydra now possess tens of thousands of heads. Nonetheless, the true Church of Christ remained unscathed by heresies, retaining its dogmas unchanged and static, retaining its unity and unanimity, and certainly rightly dividing the Word of Truth, since it was not possible that the author of confusion could ever prevail over the Author of peace and His Body. What is more evident than that? What is more valid?





Please, please, please, for the love of Christ, forgive me if I have grieved or offended you in any way! I am very sorry!
 
Last edited:

Radagast

comes and goes
Site Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,896
9,864
✟344,531.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I have written this because of my love for you all. I have written this because I have prayed to the Lord Jesus with profuse tears on account of desiring the solidarity of believers who confess Jesus as Lord and Christ and believe in His name. I have written this because I desire that we may be one as the Holy Trinity is One.

I am addressing the doctrine of Sola Scriptura today, which is captivated in the following way by Martin Luther:

I prefer Gregory of Nyssa's formulation:

"... we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings."

If you google Sola Scriptura and read "Got Questions?"

Mr Google probably isn't the most reliable source on this topic.

3) Numerous orthodox dogmas are not explicitly found in the Bible.

If you check the texts in our Statement of Faith, you will see that they are.

This doctrine of sola scriptura originated from Martin Luther.

No, it didn't. Gregory of Nyssa, among others, held to it.

As I have explained above, this man was not credible, nor should he have been followed.

You just got put on my ignore list. I can do without this kind of anti-Protestant abuse.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I prefer Gregory of Nyssa's formulation:

"... we are not entitled to such license, I mean that of affirming what we please; we make the Holy Scriptures the rule and the measure of every tenet; we necessarily fix our eyes upon that, and approve that alone which may be made to harmonize with the intention of those writings."



Mr Google probably isn't the most reliable source on this topic.



If you check the texts in our Statement of Faith, you will see that they are.



No, it didn't. Gregory of Nyssa, among others, held to it.



You just got put on my ignore list. I can do without this kind of anti-Protestant abuse.
St Gregory was Orthodox who upheld Holy Tradition. You can't appeal to his writings as a false proof-text.

Furthermore, what good is it that you came here and ignored all my points, only providing the most inadequate rebuttals, which can hardly be considered even that?

Proof texts do not prove orthodox dogmas. It is evident to anyone who has any intelligence and possesses true faith that the scriptures must be expounded. Otherwise, it would be valid for me to teach that Jesus literally taught us to cut our hands and feet and pluck out our eyes when we sin. I could also argue that the Lord taught that some men should literally make themselves eunuchs by castrating themselves. Such folly can be observed in history, as in the case of Origen.
 
Upvote 0

Noxot

anarchist personalist
Site Supporter
Aug 6, 2007
8,192
2,452
38
dallas, texas
Visit site
✟253,899.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
that was a rumor about origen that for all I know was spread by the people that hated him. it might be true and it might not.

not to mention that some godly men thought very highly of origen.

and even if he did do such things, why don't you read this:

Matt 19:10-12 (YLT)
His disciples say to him, `If the case of the man with the woman is so, it is not good to marry.' And he said to them, `All do not receive this word, but those to whom it hath been given; for there are eunuchs who from the mother's womb were so born; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who kept themselves eunuchs because of the reign of the heavens: he who is able to receive it --let him receive.'


personally I think it's foolish to cut off any part of your body that can feel but abraham and moses thought it was okay.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
14,732
6,636
Massachusetts
✟654,559.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
the Father said, “This is my beloved Son in Whom I am well pleased”
Yes, Jesus is God the Son, but what especially matters to our Father is how Jesus is so pleasing to Him. And this is why our Father desires to change all of us to be like Jesus and to be sweetly pleasing and loving like Jesus >

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

This needs our attention, perhaps much more than theological conclusions. Whatever doctrine is of God is going to help us to please God while sharing intimately with Him in His love and loving any and all people.

The love meaning of scripture is infallible :) The correct explanation can be misleading, getting us into comparing merely with what wrong people are busy with saying. Our attention first needs to be to God and pleasing and submitting to Him in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

If you think that the above-mentioned dogmas are blatantly obvious from the Scriptures, you are wrong, as this is evident by the manifold heresies that have surfaced throughout the last 2000 years.
Don't be fooled by how people act like they can't understand the scriptures. God is easily able to enlighten us :) So, it is wise not to judge by how wrong people do things and make things look > their failure is a warning to us, though, of how we could go the wrong way, since we are human, too. And so we need to depend solo on God >

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
.And lean not on your own understanding;
.In all your ways acknowledge Him,
.And He shall direct your paths."
. . . . . . . . . . . (Proverbs 3:5-6)

And since Christ is God, it is impossible that God’s nature became confused with a human nature.
What I understand is that Jesus always has been God the Son. He had a human body, but He was not human natured in a way so He could sin. Jesus was the definition of how we all need to become human, meaning humane with compassion and caring . . . and this while enjoying and pleasing our Father, and feeling for Him.

we will never be able to know what is dogmatically true, since the Divine Writings can be misinterpreted so that they support heresies just as much as they support genuine doctrine.
The failure of wrong people does not decide if we children of God can get things straight. But it is a warning.

By the way . . . God's love meaning of scripture is infallible. How God has us living His meaning of scripture is infallible > Philippians 2:13-16. How our Heavenly Father rules each of us in His own peace is infallible.

So, in case your main attention is to theological ideas and pointing out how you find that certain people are wrong . . . this is error of where your attention is going.

Have you fed on Isaiah 55:11? To me, this shows that God's word is unconditionally guaranteed to accomplish all which God Himself means by His word . . . not limited because of how humans can mess things up and make it seem impossible to get things straight. But God in us and in our lives is producing all which His word means to Him, including by forming the Person of Jesus in every one of us who is His child > Galatians 4:19.

And tell me, what evidence is there that this doctrine of Sola Scriptura is valid? Does not the Lord plainly tell us, “And when the Holy Spirit comes, He shall lead you into all Truth”? I beg you, show me the proof of this prophecy’s fulfillment within the Protestant Reformation.
I did not personally know people of the Reformation; so I will not try to speak for them.

I do not know what their actual example was. It plainly says,

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

But I would say I have spent time sharing with people who are example leaders whom Jesus approves, who meet the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3:1-10. We need God's examples who are the living interpretation of the scriptures. And Hebrews 13:17 says to obey these leaders whom God Himself trusts and approves to take care of His church.

These people have not spent much time comparing Catholicism and Protestantism, but they are mainly busy with how we are in comparison with Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Athanasius377

Is playing with his Tonka truck.
Site Supporter
Apr 22, 2017
1,385
1,528
Cincinnati
✟795,912.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
St Gregory was Orthodox who upheld Holy Tradition. You can't appeal to his writings as a false proof-text.


Furthermore, what good is it that you came here and ignored all my points, only providing the most inadequate rebuttals, which can hardly be considered even that?

Proof texts do not prove orthodox dogmas. It is evident to anyone who has any intelligence and possesses true faith that the scriptures must be expounded. Otherwise, it would be valid for me to teach that Jesus literally taught us to cut our hands and feet and pluck out our eyes when we sin. I could also argue that the Lord taught that some men should literally make themselves eunuchs by castrating themselves. Such folly can be observed in history, as in the case of Origen.


If we are not part of one of the two "one true churches" we cannot appeal a church father? Says who, you? In case you didn't realize it there are protestants do read and appreciate the early church fathers. In fact a number of the reformers were almost encyclopedic in their knowledge of the early church fathers.

Maybe Radagast like myself does not see the point in typing several researched and well argued pages for the sake of someone who responds as you did about Gregory of Nyssa.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I have written this because of my love for you all. I have written this because I have prayed to the Lord Jesus with profuse tears on account of desiring the solidarity of believers who confess Jesus as Lord and Christ and believe in His name. I have written this because I desire that we may be one as the Holy Trinity is One.

I am addressing the doctrine of Sola Scriptura today, which is captivated in the following way by Martin Luther:

My feeling about this is as follows:
1. This is about the fourth thread on the very same topic that has run lately. It might be better just to pick up and continue one of the more recent ones.
2. There is too much here to cover in a single thread. It is hard to say where to begin, if one wanted to take it on.
3. The Original Post contains just too much misinformation/disinformation about Sola Scriptura. Any discussion would have to start by correcting all of that.
 
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
My feeling about this is as follows:
1. This is about the fourth thread on the very same topic that has run lately. It might be better just to pick up and continue one of the more recent ones.
2. There is too much here to cover in a single thread. It is hard to say where to begin, if one wanted to take it on.
3. The Original Post contains just too much misinformation/disinformation about Sola Scriptura. Any discussion would have to start by correcting all of that.

Tell me, how am I misinformed by defining Sola Scriptura as the doctrine which states that the absolute and ultimate source of authoritative truth must be the Holy Scriptures?
 
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
If we are not part of one of the two "one true churches" we cannot appeal a church father? Says who, you? In case you didn't realize it there are protestants do read and appreciate the early church fathers. In fact a number of the reformers were almost encyclopedic in their knowledge of the early church fathers.

Maybe Radagast like myself does not see the point in typing several researched and well argued pages for the sake of someone who responds as you did about Gregory of Nyssa.

I didn't say you can't appeal to a church father. I said you can't misquote and misinterpret them merely to support a heresy they did not believe nor preach. St Gregory came from a Church that did not believe in Sola Scriptura, which is irrefutable based on his writings, teachings, and his membership of a Church that did not elevate the Holy Scriptures above Holy Tradition, but instead saw the Scriptures as being derived from Holy Tradition by the Holy Spirit. If you do not even accept the Church St Gregory belonged to, which clearly did not believe the heresy of Sola Scriptura, then you cannot falsely accuse a Saint of that Church of believing something that opposed the Church. Proof texting a Saint that says something remotely supportive of a heresy does not equate to properly understanding his message within its proper context. In fact, a proof texting approach is one of the issues we often find within the Protestant world because of Sola Scriptura,since people believe that they often do not need to expound the scriptures. Similarly, people think they can understand the church fathers without understanding the church they belonged to and other important contextual factors! However, this methodology of understanding is lazy, atrocious, and simply absurd.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Tell me, how am I misinformed by defining Sola Scriptura as the doctrine which states that the absolute and ultimate source of authoritative truth must be the Holy Scriptures?
Well, it is not that particular line that is a concern, but much of the rest of what you stated in your post. ;)

As I wrote before, the OP is rather long with many parts, but here is an example of what I was pointing to--
Having said all of this, if Scripture is the authoritative standard by which we discern dogma, that is, the Truth of our faith, then we will never be able to know what is dogmatically true, since the Divine Writings can be misinterpreted so that they support heresies just as much as they support genuine doctrine.
 
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Well, it is not that particular line that is a concern, but much of the rest of what you stated in your post. ;)

As I wrote before, the OP is rather long with many parts, but here is an example of what I was pointing to--
Okay, you've pointed at it. What about it?

I understand the original post we lengthy. But at least respond to one of my points.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
OK. Sola Scriptura does not include any assurances that everyone reading the Bible will understand it correctly or in the same way as everyone else. Not any more than every unreformed Christian will interpret Holy Tradition or some other source of information correctly.

The teaching we call Sola Scriptura holds that the Bible is the ultimate source of authority for essential doctrine, yet every critic wants to take that and run with it, adding all manner of addendums to it. It is these, then, that their alleged proofs of the alleged shortcomings of Sola Scriptura are based on.
 
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
OK. Sola Scriptura does not include any assurances that everyone reading the Bible will understand it correctly or in the same way as everyone else. Not any more than every unreformed Christian will interpret Holy Tradition or some other source of information correctly.

The teaching we call Sola Scriptura holds that the Bible is the ultimate source of authority for essential doctrine, yet every critic wants to take that and run with it, adding all manner of addendums to it. It is these, then, that their alleged proofs of the alleged shortcomings of Sola Scriptura are based on.

This is the fundamental flaw, then. Since it is exceedingly apparent by your own words, "Sola Scriptura does not include any assurances that everyone reading the Bible will understand it correctly", that in order for anyone to appeal to the authority of the Scriptures, they must understand it correctly. Therefore, the Scriptures do not innately speak for themselves, nor are they authoritative by themselves. It is the enormous problem of misinterpretation that destroys the doctrine of Sola Scriptura because the Scriptures alone are not capable of being interpreted or expounded correctly by every reader. Thus, the Scriptures are not authoritative in and of themselves, that is, alone. Instead, they require that someone rightly interpret and expound them by the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Or else, the result is heresy and falsehood, not righteous dogma. The ultimate authority is not, then, merely the Scriptures alone, but it is the correct interpretation of the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit that must be authoritative. Yet, if it is the Holy Spirit who teaches us the truth of the Divine Scriptures (or rather, it is more accurate to say, Who teaches us the Truth of God found in the Divine Scriptures), it does not stand to reason that the only source of authoritative truth is the Scriptures. But it is reasonable to say that anything that contradicts the right meaning of Scripture cannot be authoritative or of the Truth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
This is the fundamental flaw, then. Since it is exceedingly apparent by your own words, "Sola Scriptura does not include any assurances that everyone reading the Bible will understand it correctly", that in order for anyone to appeal to the authority of the Scriptures, they must understand it correctly.

No, Sola Scriptura is concerned with what is the proper authority.

It is wrong to mix in with that statement your analysis of how well it works.

And if you insist upon doing so, remember that there is NO OTHER authority which is free of the same flaw (as you termed it) that you are attributing to Sola Scriptura--and very definitely not Tradition which, as I recall, was what your OP offered as the alternative to Holy Scripture.
 
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
No, Sola Scriptura is concerned with what is the proper authority.

It is wrong to mix in with that statement your analysis of how well it works.

And if you insist upon doing so, remember that there is NO OTHER authority which is free of the same flaw (as you termed it) that you are attributing to Sola Scriptura--and very definitely not Tradition which, as I recall, was what your OP offered as the alternative to Holy Scripture.

1) Define "proper authority".

2) And explain how the Scriptures, by themselves, are authoritative.

3) How is that possible without a true interpretation of the Scriptures?

4) If it is not, then how can you consider the Scriptures alone to be authoritative?

5) An authority is free from flaw so long as it is God, the Holy Spirit, leading Christ's Church into the fullness of Truth.

6) Holy Tradition is God's truth as inspired and revealed by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it is free from this fundamental flaw of Sola Scriptura. Holy Tradition also provides us with the right interpretation of the Scriptures.

7) Scriptura is not Sola because Scriptura requires proper interpretation. The source of righteous interpretation is not man, but God.

8) Thus, it is the correct interpretation of the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit that is authoritative.

9) Holy Tradition is equally as authoritative since it is also inspired by the Truth revealed by the Holy Spirit, just as the Truth is revealed by the Holy Spirit from the Scriptures.

10) The authority of Holy Tradition and the authority of the Holy Scriptures are not mutually exclusive. Holy Tradition and Sola Scriptura are.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
25,856
8,381
Dallas
✟1,091,003.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
:shutup:
“But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:27‬
 
Upvote 0

HwtChirino

Active Member
Apr 26, 2010
128
42
United States
✟1,964.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Then, He reaches me the truth, and what you say is a lie if you say that Sola Scriptura is true. But you quote a scripture that proves my point rather than yours, since it is my point that the Holy Spirit is our only source of authority for the truth, not the scriptures by themselves.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,263
✟584,002.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
And explain how the Scriptures, by themselves, are authoritative.
The revealed word of God himself is NOT authoritative when it comes to church doctrine?? Is that really your position? What surpasses God in authority?

How is that possible without a true interpretation of the Scriptures?
Has anyone here advocated for an incorrect interpretation of Scripture?

5) An authority is free from flaw so long as it is God, the Holy Spirit, leading Christ's Church into the fullness of Truth.

So...this sounds to me like you are advocating for what some man or men or tea leaves or custom or legend or whatever else it is as your guidepost SO LONG AS YOU slap the words Holy and Spirit on it. :doh:The connection is never made; it is just stipulated.

Holy Tradition is God's truth as inspired and revealed by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it is free from this fundamental flaw of Sola Scriptura.
And that, my friend, is just so much theory. You have nothing tangible to point to, whereas we point to the Bible that every Christian church, Catholic or Protestant, affirms.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,381
11,921
Georgia
✟1,096,207.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Returning to the issue at hand: Sola Scriptura, which purports that only the Scriptures can be appealed to as being authoritative on matters of dogma and praxis.

I have to say, I am somewhat comforted by the view that the writer of Got Questions takes. He says this, "The Bible declares itself to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative. We also know that God does not change His mind or contradict Himself. So, while the Bible itself may not explicitly argue for sola scriptura, it most definitely does not allow for traditions that contradict its message. Sola scriptura is not as much of an argument against tradition as it is an argument against unbiblical, extra-biblical and/or anti-biblical doctrines."

I am okay with the underlying premise of sola scriptura if it does not oppose traditions that are inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I have a few questions for you.

1) Explain to me how people were able to live righteously in the sight of God, prior to Moses, without the Holy Scriptures we have canonized today. Most scholars say that Job was the earliest text of Scripture, followed by Genesis.

First of all it is correct to note that before Moses - no scripture existed and thus they were handing down doctrine and practice via oral tradition.

Secondly "sola scriptura" does not say that everything that is not inside the pages of scripture is doctrinal error -- rather it says that all doctrine and practice -- yes all tradition as well - must be tested against known scripture.


You would have found the words in the Bible to prove sola scriptura.

No - you have to find "scripture" in the Bible to support the teaching of "sola scriptura"

1 Cor 4:9
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in behalf of one against the other.

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to see IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were so"

Good luck with that.

Thanks! :)

"Sanctify them in Thy TRUTH -- Thy WORD is Truth" John 17:17

2 Peter 1:20-21 " 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

Notice how Jesus uses the term "Word of God" in this example?


Mark 7:6-13
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

============================

1. The Bible is the Word of God.
2. The Word of God is the only infallible rule of faith and practice.

Thus... Isiah 8:20 "To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light" is sola scriptura affirmed long before the NT.

But the way you use "alone" you defeat your own doctrine by eliminating all possibility of finding that doctrine in scripture.

If Isaiah had said "what is written scripture at this point alone - is the Word of God and the rule of faith" -- then not even the rest of Isaiah would be "valid" nor the remainder of the OT nor all the NT.

If the rule is used in Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul - were SO" but if you insert your wording into it -- then that text is saying that only the accepted scriptures as known at the writing of Acts 17:11 is the "Word of God" and only those texts are valid rules for testing faith, tradition and practice. Not the remainder of Acts not even the writings of the NT since the Bereans were surely not reading any NT texts while still non-Christian Jews.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,381
11,921
Georgia
✟1,096,207.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
1)
6) Holy Tradition is God's truth as inspired and revealed by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it is free from this fundamental flaw of Sola Scriptura. Holy Tradition also provides us with the right interpretation of the Scriptures.
.

That is a circular argument
 
Upvote 0