Sola scriptura

[sculleywr]

You have already made clear that
you trust in men who made an interpretation
that the Father Himself and Jesus makes clear is false.
\
Now you have admitted that Peter warned against believing their interpretation,
but you
for whatever reason believed their interpretation even though from what you have posted yourself their interpretation is wrong (contrary to Scripture and to Yhwh's Spirit).

No. Peter warned against PRIVATE interpretation. Every person believes an interpretation of Scripture. The question is will you believe the Apostolic Tradition which is the original interpretation and intention of Scripture? Or will you prefer your own personal Fantorum?

 

[sculleywr]

Evidence is not in historical records but the heart. Show me that evidence.

2 Co:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.


10:12 We do not dare to classify or compare ourselves with some who commend themselves. When they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are not wise.

17 But, “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.” 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.

Sorry, but that is personal anecdote that cannot be shown over a forum and even then means I have to trust you, and not God. I have two options in regards to confirming the veracity of your claims. I compare you to those who knew Paul because that is better than trusting you at your word or trusting a spirit that I cannot personally confirm. The fruits you display are not the same as the fruits of people Paul himself called holy. Since Paul personally called Clement holy, I would rather have the interpretation of Scripture that belonged to a man Scripture calls holy. I can know Clement is following Christ because Scripture says he did. Scripture doesn't say the same about you.

 

[W2L]

Except your interpretation of the Scripture leads you to ignore many parts of Scripture, such as not forsaking the gathering together of the Brethren. Like it or not, this website and all other social media are not replacements for the Church because you can't receive Eucharist or Baptism or any of the Sacraments.

It is not childish to admit you need others in your life. It is maturity to know that you do not know everything. It is maturity that admits fault and error. Those who live on their own as hermits are exceptions, not rules. Most people need the community of the Church in people you can see, touch, smell, and invite into your house. If you cannot gather together with the members of your church even if a massive electromagnetic pulse knocked out the entire internet across the world, then you do not have a real church.

I yearn for friends and fellowship everyday. You are judging things you know nothing about. Its a cheap shot actually because your argument fails, so you get desperate. Do you think God is so weak that he cannot sustain me? You should be glad that I am here, looking for fellowship in the spirit, instead of casting your dark shadow on me. Let me see some light for a change. If you cant love me on the internet, what makes you think I would want your fellowship in a Church? This is the real you, after we take off our Sunday morning mask. THis is the real us, except for all the fakes. I assure you though I'm not fake.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Every person believes an interpretation of Scripture.

ekklesia do not.
the interpretation you choose to listen to led you afar astray from truth.
'every person' who does includes you, and yes, 'every person' who does gets in trouble (to put it mildly).

 

[W2L]

Sorry, but that is personal anecdote that cannot be shown over a forum and even then means I have to trust you, and not God. I have two options in regards to confirming the veracity of your claims. I compare you to those who knew Paul because that is better than trusting you at your word or trusting a spirit that I cannot personally confirm. The fruits you display are not the same as the fruits of people Paul himself called holy. Since Paul personally called Clement holy, I would rather have the interpretation of Scripture that belonged to a man Scripture calls holy. I can know Clement is following Christ because Scripture says he did. Scripture doesn't say the same about you.

Its sad that you don't know God as well as you say your Church does. God wants mercy not sacrifice, he want love not incense. You are so desperate to prove your Church is the "true" church, that you actually prove the opposite. You love words and historical records it seams. I love words too, I love the word Hope, Faith, Love, and perseverance. You're just upset because I find liberty in my hardships and you don't.

 

[sculleywr]

I yearn for friends and fellowship everyday. You are judging things you know nothing about. Its a cheap shot actually because your argument fails, so you get desperate. Do you think God is so weak that he cannot sustain me? You should be glad that I am here, looking for fellowship in the spirit, instead of casting your dark shadow on me. Let me see some light for a change. If you cant love me on the internet, what makes you think I would want your fellowship in a Church? This is the real you, after we take off our Sunday morning mask. THis is the real us, except for all the fakes. I assure you though I'm not fake.

Yearning for something is not the same as pursuing it. God isn't so weak that He can't do anything He wants. However, He has stated where His promises lie. Loving you does not mean saying, "oh, it's alright to believe whatever you want". Does a true friend let his friend do something he knows to be wrong? How loving would you say a person who allows his friend to make a mistake without telling him is? Would you say that, for instance, I would be loving if I allowed my blind friend to walk into a road when I see a car coming? Or should I let one of my friends hang out with someone without telling her I overheard him saying he was just going to use her for sex and then dump her?Would that be loving her? Loving a person means being honest and forthright, even if it hurts. More to be desired are the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy.

 

[sculleywr]

ekklesia do not.
the interpretation you choose to listen to led you afar astray from truth.
'every person' who does includes you, and yes, 'every person' who does gets in trouble (to put it mildly).

According to you. Now, let us go according to the Church Christ established. The Church that hell never prevailed against.

Oh wait, that doesn't exist. The Church fell, if what you are preaching is true. So if your teaching is Christianity, then Christianity has no claim to be true because it is based on a false prophecy.

 

[sculleywr]

Its sad that you don't know God as well as you say your Church does. God wants mercy not sacrifice, he want love not incense. You are so desperate to prove your Church is the "true" church, that you actually prove the opposite. You love words and historical records it seams. I love words too, I love the word Hope, Faith, Love, and perseverance. You're just upset because I find liberty in my hardships and you don't.

He wants both.

Love does not rule out mercy. Nor does mercy rule out sacrifice.

If there is no Church, then Christ's prophecy failed. Why should I follow a failed prophet?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

According to you. Now, let us go according to the Church Christ established. The Church that hell never prevailed against.
Oh wait, that doesn't exist. The Church fell, if what you are preaching is true. So if your teaching is Christianity, then Christianity has no claim to be true because it is based on a false prophecy.

See your error now ? LONG AGO you trusted a man who lied to you and said "this is the church that Christ established"
when all you had to do was read the Bible to know that man lied to you. (Yhwh willing you be alive)

You never yet saw nor realized , or you rejected Jesus and the ekklesia that are born again in Christ Jesus and who all of hell cannot prevail against as God promised.

You chose LONG AGO , long before you visited this forum apparently,
you chose to reject following Jesus,
you chose to reject believing the Bible (you apparently have never read it and believed it as God gives understanding to those who read it seeking Him) .

INSTEAD of trusting and relying on GOD (that Jesus said to do, AS IT IS WRITTEN),
YOU believed a liar (why? who knows? for comfort? because 'family' said so ? for survival ? (they help with bills? and your medical care ? and life? and you don't know what to do if you accept the truth ? ) )

 

[W2L]

Yearning for something is not the same as pursuing it. God isn't so weak that He can't do anything He wants. However, He has stated where His promises lie. Loving you does not mean saying, "oh, it's alright to believe whatever you want". Does a true friend let his friend do something he knows to be wrong? How loving would you say a person who allows his friend to make a mistake without telling him is? Would you say that, for instance, I would be loving if I allowed my blind friend to walk into a road when I see a car coming? Or should I let one of my friends hang out with someone without telling her I overheard him saying he was just going to use her for sex and then dump her?Would that be loving her? Loving a person means being honest and forthright, even if it hurts. More to be desired are the wounds of a friend than the kisses of an enemy.

Your rhetoric is one big circular argument. Its a circle of contention without an end. A cloud without any rain.

The reason for fellowship is to exhort and also to edify each other daily. That's why I'm here. Instead of doing that however, you cast judgment on me because its not in a building. You tear down my faith because its not according to the letter, or according to your denomination either.

God is my judge, not you, not your church. You are not an apostle, and your church with all its adoration and kissing of icons, along with praying to saints, this is not exactly demonstrating discernment. Who are you to judge me?

I'm going to get off of this merry go round of contention now. My faith is strong because I persevered through hardship, and I found a measure of much needed peace. You will not snare me and take that away. No sir. If I hang an image of St Paul on my wall, and take it down once in a while and kiss it, will that be better? Man, I got to get away from you before I say more.

 

[W2L]

He wants both.

Love does not rule out mercy. Nor does mercy rule out sacrifice.

If there is no Church, then Christ's prophecy failed. Why should I follow a failed prophet?

Why should I adore and kiss an icon of one? Peace.

 

[sculleywr]

Why should I adore and kiss an icon of one? Peace.

Why would a soldier kiss a picture of his wife while on deployment? Same reason.

 

[sculleywr]

Your rhetoric is one big circular argument. Its a circle of contention without an end. A cloud without any rain.

The reason for fellowship is to exhort and also to edify each other daily. That's why I'm here. Instead of doing that however, you cast judgment on me because its not in a building. You tear down my faith because its not according to the letter, or according to your denomination either.

God is my judge, not you, not your church. You are not an apostle, and your church with all its adoration and kissing of icons, along with praying to saints, this is not exactly demonstrating discernment. Who are you to judge me?

I'm going to get off of this merry go round of contention now. My faith is strong because I persevered through hardship, and I found a measure of much needed peace. You will not snare me and take that away. No sir. If I hang an image of St Paul on my wall, and take it down once in a while and kiss it, will that be better? Man, I got to get away from you before I say more.

An acknowledgement that you contend with others is not creating the division that you, yourself, create by dividing yourself away from the brethren. If there is something wrong with a building, does a person leave it there and continue building on top of it? Or does he tear it down and replace it? If your faith is not correct, and I perceive that, then what is my duty? Would it not be to correct you?

Your analogy of a cloud without any rain doesn't even make sense. Not all clouds bring rain. How many beautiful sunsets have you seen in cloudless skies? And how many beautiful sunsets do you see when it's pouring rain?

 

[W2L]

Why would a soldier kiss a picture of his wife while on deployment? Same reason.

You make it sound so innocent. However, your denomination actually has rules about how to "properly" handle the Icon. Its improper to kiss their face. Your Church prays in their presence, seek miracles from them and bows to them. Whatever Sculleywr, if that's your thing I have no problem with it, but don't preach to me about proper discernment either.

 

[sculleywr]

You make it sound so innocent. However, your denomination actually has rules about how to "properly" handle the Icon. Its improper to kiss their face. Your Church prays in their presence, seek miracles from them and bows to them. Whatever Sculleywr, if that's your thing I have no problem with it, but don't preach to me about proper discernment either.

You act like it's a sin when it isn't. There are rules for two reasons: to prevent overadulation and idolatry, and common sense rules to preserve the Icons. Would you, for instance, throw your Bible onto a pile of garbage in your trunk and toss the oil rag on top of it? That's an Icon, friend. Icons are not limited to the images used in Orthodox Church services or prayer corner. You are an Icon. I am an Icon.

 

[W2L]

You act like it's a sin when it isn't. There are rules for two reasons: to prevent overadulation and idolatry, and common sense rules to preserve the Icons. Would you, for instance, throw your Bible onto a pile of garbage in your trunk and toss the oil rag on top of it? That's an Icon, friend. Icons are not limited to the images used in Orthodox Church services or prayer corner. You are an Icon. I am an Icon.

So you pray in its presence, bow to it, expect miracles from it, but you cant kiss it improperly for fear of idolatry?

Doesn't sound like anything the apostle Paul would teach. I'll stick with Paul, and I wont be joining "Orthodoxy"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

That is not the meaning of Tradition. And it is not the only time he uses that word in positive terms. In Phillipians 11, he praises the people of Phillipi for following the TRADITION. Yes, some translations mistranslate the word, but in Greek, it is unambiguous. And in this case, it has nothing to do with eschatology. The word is Paradosis. Yes, as I stated before in my breakdown of the types of traditions, there are the types which are harmful to the Faith. But the Greek word Paradosis does not include any reference to whether the traditions are wrong or false. It simply means "that which is handed down". It doesn't mean eschatology. It doesn't mean anything other than that which is handed down.

It is also telling that you deflected away from your claim that we are using it to defend things which are new. I'm pinning you down on that statement because you must either reject that that is what we do or prove that we teach that Tradition is to defend the new. If you're going to win an argument, you ought to win it against what we actually teach, and not some strawman that isn't what we teach.

I am not aware of a Philippians chapter 11. Please provide me with an actual verse number of where you think the word "Tradition" appears within Philippians. Thank you.


...

 

[sculleywr]

So you pray in its presence, bow to it, expect miracles from it, but you cant kiss it improperly for fear of idolatry?

Doesn't sound like anything the apostle Paul would teach. I'll stick with Paul, and I wont be joining "Orthodoxy"

Did you not pay attention to the second reason for rules? Common sense? Because of the paints used to make Icons, kissing the face can cause marring and damage to one of the parts intended to convey part of the message of the Icon. For this reason, we kiss the foot of the Icon, or the base. We don't avoid kissing the face for fear of idolatry. That's not the only rule of Icons. Some rules are actually stylistic, too, for instance, the color pallette used, whether one uses oil or acrylic paint, whether one uses Russian, Oriental, Byzantine, or western styling, or any of dozens of styles of art in Icons. When making an Icon, the Iconographer should fast and pray, remembering that the most important purpose of the Icon is to point us to Christ.

To be frank, if God chooses to work a miracle through an Icon, who is ANY human to reject that miracle? Is not the rejection of a miracle from God a rejection of God Himself? And we don't EXPECT miracles from Icons. In pioint of fact, the first thing we do when any supernatural event stems from an Icon is perform an exorcism of that Icon just in case Satan tried to use it to distract from the real point. Then an Icon has to spend a long time as the people who receive of the miracle from that Icon continue through life, to see if the supernatural event was really from God, for if it is from God, the miracle will lead them toward a closer relationship with God. The OrthodoxChurch is skeptical of claims of miraculous events, but not complete deniers. And considering that God commanded prayers in the presence of giant statues of angels made out of gold, I doubt there is anything wrong with praying in the presence of Icons, unless of course you believe God would command men to do something which is wrong.

You have made your mind up about a Church you've never actually measured for real, because to measure the Orthodox Church, you have to be in the Church. Just a note, if you're really familiar with Scripture, you'll notice that 80% of the service is ripped straight out of Scripture or inspired by Scripture. The fact is that you talk a big talk about testing whether something is true. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is.

a few rules to keep in mind: don't look for all the people to be perfect. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for the saints. Every person there has clay feet. They all stumble. They all have struggles. What I found when I first went to Pokrov Russian Orthodox Church was a family. People who were interested in my well-being AND my spiritual growth. Sure, we had our problems and struggles. But they were loving. The problem is that love is nigh on impossible to convey fully through a screen. It's why I have such a hard time being apart from my fiance.

The love of God is conveyed through real relationships. And that will never be conveyed via the internet in the way that it is in person.

 

[sculleywr]

I am not aware of a Philippians chapter 11. Please provide me with an actual verse number of where you think the word "Tradition" appears within Philippians. Thank you.


...

The Greek word is Paradosis. It is verse three. the KJV mistranslates it as ordinances. However, Tradition is more than just a bunch of rules, as is Paradosis. Paradosis is not teachings or ordinances. It is knowledge that is handed down, be it through written or oral form, or even by example, as martial arts are traditions which couldn't be conveyed through speaking or writing, but by demonstration. This is shown in translations of all other contemporary documents in the Greek which use the word. It isn't used to speak only of teachings.

 

[W2L]

Did you not pay attention to the second reason for rules? Common sense? Because of the paints used to make Icons, kissing the face can cause marring and damage to one of the parts intended to convey part of the message of the Icon. For this reason, we kiss the foot of the Icon, or the base. We don't avoid kissing the face for fear of idolatry. That's not the only rule of Icons. Some rules are actually stylistic, too, for instance, the color pallette used, whether one uses oil or acrylic paint, whether one uses Russian, Oriental, Byzantine, or western styling, or any of dozens of styles of art in Icons. When making an Icon, the Iconographer should fast and pray, remembering that the most important purpose of the Icon is to point us to Christ.

To be frank, if God chooses to work a miracle through an Icon, who is ANY human to reject that miracle? Is not the rejection of a miracle from God a rejection of God Himself? And we don't EXPECT miracles from Icons. In pioint of fact, the first thing we do when any supernatural event stems from an Icon is perform an exorcism of that Icon just in case Satan tried to use it to distract from the real point. Then an Icon has to spend a long time as the people who receive of the miracle from that Icon continue through life, to see if the supernatural event was really from God, for if it is from God, the miracle will lead them toward a closer relationship with God. The OrthodoxChurch is skeptical of claims of miraculous events, but not complete deniers. And considering that God commanded prayers in the presence of giant statues of angels made out of gold, I doubt there is anything wrong with praying in the presence of Icons, unless of course you believe God would command men to do something which is wrong.

You have made your mind up about a Church you've never actually measured for real, because to measure the Orthodox Church, you have to be in the Church. Just a note, if you're really familiar with Scripture, you'll notice that 80% of the service is ripped straight out of Scripture or inspired by Scripture. The fact is that you talk a big talk about testing whether something is true. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is.

a few rules to keep in mind: don't look for all the people to be perfect. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for the saints. Every person there has clay feet. They all stumble. They all have struggles. What I found when I first went to Pokrov Russian Orthodox Church was a family. People who were interested in my well-being AND my spiritual growth. Sure, we had our problems and struggles. But they were loving. The problem is that love is nigh on impossible to convey fully through a screen. It's why I have such a hard time being apart from my fiance.

The love of God is conveyed through real relationships. And that will never be conveyed via the internet in the way that it is in person.

No, I didn't miss that, and it doesn't change one thing I said either. I also don't look for perfection, that's you, you claim to have the "true oneness church". You bring it on yourself. I look only for simplicity because its obvious that when denominations add things like icon veneration, canonization, praying to saints and other such things, that only causes division and contention which are not spiritual. THis lacks discernment. Yet you just cant let go of such things. I just cant see the apostle paul promoting such doctrines, because he was a man who promoted liberty from the law, and rebuked glorying in men, and said that idols have no power. He surely wouldn't promote such things if they caused the division and contention that they do, because he preaches love above all things, and unity in the body.