Sola Scriptura

[Thursday]

I would be so sure about that.

St Augustine of Hippo wrote:

He also wrote:

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

 

[Thursday]

He also wrote:

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

And,

"But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary Councils, the authority of which is quite vital to the Church."
Letter to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

 

[Athanasias]

Hey OzSpen,


I found of the things you were saying about the Church fathers and sola scriptura interesting. I would like to have a friendly, prayerful, ecumenical, one on one discussion of this topic in the formal debate forums if you would like. We can get extensively into the quotes and writings from the early Church Fathers and why you think they teach the protestant doctrine of sola scriptura and why many Christians think they do not. Now I am not as educated as you ,as you have a PHD but I do have a masters in theology and have studied early and medieval Church history and Christian tradition on the graduate level and can utilize many sources protestant and Catholic so I think I can at least dialog in a competent way with you on these issues.

Also I have always been very fond of Baptist and have several friends who are Southern Baptist and even used to attend a Baptist Church for 5 years. So I think if your willing we can do a friendly ecumenical dialog on this topic one on one and really get down with the wriitngs of the early Church fathers and see what they and the early ecumenical councils reveal to us 2000 years later. If your up for this let me know and we can start anytime. God bless you!

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasais

 

[civilwarbuff]

If that comes about, could you post a link to the debate here? I would love to follow that......would be very interesting.......

 

[Athanasias]

If that comes about, could you post a link to the debate here? I would love to follow that......would be very interesting.......

Absolutely I will! Lets hope he takes me up on the offer I think it will be fun.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Absolutely I will! Lets hope he takes me up on the offer I think it will be fun.

Not just fun; interesting indeed it would be.

 

[Athanasias]

Not just fun; interesting indeed it would be.

I think so too. I think there is alot of patristic evidence including the ecumenical councils themselves that reveal a much deeper and wider view then what Ozspen thinks and has been quoting. It would be fun to dig in contextually as long as it is done in prayer and charity. I hope he takes me up on the offer. Pray for both of us.

 

[OzSpen]

You are correct about New Advent. It is a Roman Catholic site and I do not view it as completely authoritative.

I also think that your definition, "Those who wrote significant treatises in the post-apostolic, early church to define doctrine are regarded as 'Fathers of the Church'", is inappropriate on the basis that it does not preclude someone who defined heretical doctrine to be regarded as a Church Father. I am assuming, however, that you would agree that doctrine which is false is by definition heretical, but perhaps this is not the case.

I think any discussion over who is and who is not a Church Father cannot be closed unless there is agreement on what should and should not be considered heresy. Do you agree that a heretic should not be considered a Church Father?

So only your view and that of your church is authoritative?

You don't like some of the doctrines of Montanism promoted by Tertullian. So, does that mean that you don't regard current Pentecostal-charismatics as genuinely Christian because their views do not agree with yours?

I have a simple rule for determining whether it is heresy or not. Does it agree with the NT revelation or not? There may be church fathers who teach aspects of doctrine that I do not see as consistent with Scripture. That doesn't make them heretics. It means on that point of doctrine, they are teaching false doctrine, in my understanding. However, because Tertullian was a Pentecostal, it does not make him a heretic. There are aspects of his teaching with which I would disagree, but that doesn't make him a teacher of heretical doctrine.

From what I have said to you here, am I a teacher of heresy?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Actually that cannot be true, since the canon of the New Testament (and to some extent the old) was set by the Church Fathers, would you agree?

That doesn't make the writings of the church fathers authoritative. They chose NT books that were theopneustos (breathed out by God), 2 Tim 3:16 (ESV).

We are going in different directions. You won't change my mind and I won't change yours. Let's agree to disagree. I will not affirm the apostolic authority of the church father (even if we exclude Tertullian).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Holding up NewAdvent as an authority is a straw man if ever I saw one. Their texts exist to promote lay study of Patristic writings. If you look closely, they are merely lightly edited transcriptions of the old Philip Schaff Church Fathers series. The real deciding factor in who is a father of the church is the canons of the general councils: who is anathematized and who agreed or disagreed (for instance, WGW was quite critical of Eusebius, who apologized to his diocese for the decision at Nicea, thus essentially indicating his disagreement with the orthodox perspective).

I am not holding up New Advent as an authority. It is merely a source of these documents of the Fathers of the Church.

 

[OzSpen]

He also wrote:

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

What was the Catholic Church to Augustine?

 

[Erose]

What was the Catholic Church to Augustine?

Well the Catholic Church of today. He was a Latin Catholic bishop of Hippo, under the patriarchate of Rome.

 

[Erose]

I know that Protestants want to Protestantize St. Augustine, but in the attempt to do so requires, not doing extensive reading of his writings.

 

[OzSpen]

I know that Protestants want to Protestantize St. Augustine, but in the attempt to do so requires, not doing extensive reading of his writings.

With respect, I have read Augustine extensively for my PhD and other study.

 

[All4Christ]

With respect, I have read Augustine extensively for my PhD and other study.

Hi OzSpen. One quick question - would you be willing to tell me a bit about your background? I think I saw that you are Baptist. Have you always been Baptist, or were you in different denominations or Churches before that?

 

[Erose]

With respect, I have read Augustine extensively for my PhD and other study.

Then to be honest I am surprised you asked that question.

 

[Athanasias]

My offer still stands with OzSpen if he wants to engage in it. I am kinda sad that he did not at least respond to my offer.

 

[OzSpen]

Hi OzSpen. One quick question - would you be willing to tell me a bit about your background? I think I saw that you are Baptist. Have you always been Baptist, or were you in different denominations or Churches before that?

Why do you ask?

 

[OzSpen]

Then to be honest I am surprised you asked that question.

Why?

 

[All4Christ]

Why do you ask?

I find that knowing one's background in religion can help conversation to be more productive. When we understand the other person's perspective, it is easier to communicate clearly.


My personal background is varied (started out Pentecostal /Evangelical, explored the Reformed Churches and a bit of Catholicism and eventually became Orthodox).