Sola Scriptura

daydreamergurl15 · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
The following verse shows that the Church has authority, being the pillar of truth:

1 Timothy 3:15 CPDV

"But, if I am delayed, you should know the manner in which it is necessary to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and the foundation of truth."

1 Timothy 3:14-15 NKJV
14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV
These things write I unto thee hoping to come unto thee shortly. But if I tarry long that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth

I quoted both NKJV and KJV to show that the interpretation becomes a little different the moment you include verse 14. Yeah, Paul said he's writing to them so that they may know how to conduct themselves in the house of God.

steve_bakr · Apr 4, 2012

Albion said:
I see. But the practical answer, which is what we had been discussing, remains the same. Salvation so long as you don't know the truth and are sincere about it.

I wouldn't put it exactly that way. In your situation, you know a lot about Christian truths, but you can't be held responsible for not being born a Catholic, right?

daydreamergurl15 · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
I wouldn't put it exactly that way. In your situation, you know a lot about Christian truths, but you can't be held responsible for not being born a Catholic, right?

Can someone be born a Catholic?

steve_bakr · Apr 4, 2012

daydreamergurl15 said:
1 Timothy 3:14-15 NKJV
14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

KJV
These things write I unto thee hoping to come unto thee shortly. But if I tarry long that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth

I quoted both NKJV and KJV to show that the interpretation becomes a little different the moment you include verse 14. Yeah, Paul said he's writing to them so that they may know how to conduct themselves in the house of God.

I still read it as saying the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

steve_bakr · Apr 4, 2012

daydreamergurl15 said:
Can someone be born a Catholic?

I wasn't, but a baby born into a Catholic family is Baptized as a Catholic.

Albion · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
I wouldn't put it exactly that way. In your situation, you know a lot about Christian truths, but you can't be held responsible for not being born a Catholic, right?

I was asking you. But being "born a Catholic" seems a peculiar standard for God to follow when judging men, no matter how you look at it. However, those who think that every reference to "church" in scripture means a certain denomination instead of the whole of God's people may logically look at it that way, I suppose.

The notion that Christ intends for us to show a membership card at the last judgment, rather like getting a discount from a hotel by showing your AARP card, repels and amazes me at once.

daydreamergurl15 · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
I still read it as saying the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

Never argued about that, it was the "authority" part I didn't understand in that verse. But how do you think the church is the pillar foundation of truth comes about? The Church--the body of believers-- itself or from God? What makes the church true, the doctrine from man or the doctrine from God?

Standing Up · Apr 4, 2012

daydreamergurl15 said:
Never argued about that, it was the "authority" part I didn't understand in that verse. But how do you think the church is the pillar foundation of truth comes about? The Church--the body of believers-- itself or from God? What makes the church true, the doctrine from man or the doctrine from God?

That's the deal, isn't it? It's like Peter opening the door of the kingdom to Jew and Gentile, which he did. It's the extrapolation thereafter that results in schism. Likewise with this verse, if the Church (the body of believers) is the ground/pillar, then that is not to say some specific denomination like RC, EO, or P is that same thing.

PS. I take the verse like Irenaeus hints. God (revealed through the scripture) is the pillar/foundation. We believers live in that house, being built up as living stones. (Again, nothing about RC/EO/P denominations.)

Rick Otto · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
I wasn't, but a baby born into a Catholic family is Baptized as a Catholic.

It's what happened to me, but by the grace of God, I overcame it.

Rick Otto · Apr 4, 2012

"...which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth."

"...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Punctuation saves lives:
Let's eat, grandma.
Let's eat grandma.

Either way, God is the source of truth, not the church.

Albion · Apr 4, 2012

Rick Otto said:
"...which is the church of the living God the pillar and ground of the truth."

"...which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

Punctuation saves lives:
Let's eat, grandma.
Let's eat grandma.

Either way, God is the source of truth, not the church.

Excellent point, Rick. The household of faith, the church, is only expected to uphold that truth. Nowhere are we told that it creates it.

daydreamergurl15 · Apr 4, 2012

Standing Up said:
That's the deal, isn't it? It's like Peter opening the door of the kingdom to Jew and Gentile, which he did. It's the extrapolation thereafter that results in schism. Likewise with this verse, if the Church (the body of believers) is the ground/pillar, then that is not to say some specific denomination like RC, EO, or P is that same thing.

PS. I take the verse like Irenaeus hints. God (revealed through the scripture) is the pillar/foundation. We believers live in that house, being built up as living stones. (Again, nothing about RC/EO/P denominations.)

I too believe that God is the pillar and foundation of truth and that's what the church strands on.

HisKid1973 · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
How so? Christians have entered into the life of Christ through Baptism.

I thought we are to repent first....Repent/be baptized--

Albion · Apr 4, 2012

HisKid1973 said:
I thought we are to repent first....Repent/be baptized--

That wasn't part of the issue here, however. The point was just that, being baptised, we are different from pagans. Steve's right about that, but I was looking for how we are different with regard to the issue we had been working on--how this (church membership) relates to salvation.

Rick Otto · Apr 4, 2012

Albion said:
That wasn't part of the issue here, however. The point was just that, being baptised, we are different from pagans. Steve's right about that, but I was looking for how we are different with regard to the issue we had been working on--how this (church membership) relates to salvation.

Probably just who you end up confining yourself to in heaven.

steve_bakr · Apr 4, 2012

Albion said:
I was asking you. But being "born a Catholic" seems a peculiar standard for God to follow when judging men, no matter how you look at it. However, anyone who thinks that every reference to "church" in scripture means a certain denomination instead of the whole of God's people may logically look at it that way, I suppose.

This is one main reason why I am NOT a Roman Catholic. The notion that Christ intends for us to show a membership card at the last judgment, rather like getting a discount from a hotel by showing your AARP card, repulses and amazes me at once.

We covered already that the saved are Baptised Christians, both Catholics and non-Catholics, didn't we?

Albion · Apr 4, 2012

steve_bakr said:
We covered already that the saved--which is a Protestant term

'salvation' isn't.

but I am using it as a matter of convention--are Baptised Christians, both Catholics and non-Catholics, didn't we?

Several things were said about it, but my question wasn't answered.

When the following is said:

Those Baptised Christians who reject the doctrines of either Church--through their ignorance-- can be saved. The Roman Catholic Church does not hold the inheritors of Protestantism responsible for being born into Protestant churches.

it's pretty predictable that someone's going to ask about those who are in neither category, i.e. those who LEAVE the RCC in the belief that it is wrong but remain believing, practicing Christians. Because you give the church's official answer to all questions like these, I figured you would have the answer to this as well.

Fireinfolding · Apr 4, 2012

Albion said:
I was asking you. But being "born a Catholic" seems a peculiar standard for God to follow when judging men, no matter how you look at it. However, those who think that every reference to "church" in scripture means a certain denomination instead of the whole of God's people may logically look at it that way, I suppose.

The notion that Christ intends for us to show a membership card at the last judgment, rather like getting a discount from a hotel by showing your AARP card, repels and amazes me at once.

I missed this one till it was brought up, I feel the same way, you just have a much better way of putting things.

I would always wonder, if the filing cabinet (with the names filed in it) might be considered (to them) as equal to the Lambs book of life?

Sometimes it seemd so

Montalban · Apr 4, 2012

daydreamergurl15 said:
The 1st century Christians were well aware of the writings, Paul recommended them to pass along his letters and they were circulated among the church, Peter refer to Paul's writings as "hard to understand".

Absolutely. The writings themselves didn't testify to their own authenticity. The church testified to their authenticity. This is the basis of tradition!

You'd almost think from reading people's posts over the years that sola scripturists think that the bible authorised and organised itself.

It was in fact the church Jesus established that bore witness to the truth BEFORE the bible was compiled

steve_bakr · Apr 4, 2012

Albion said:
'salvation' isn't.

Several things were said about it, but my question wasn't answered.

When the following is said:

it's pretty predictable that someone's going to ask about those who are in neither category, i.e. those who LEAVE the RCC in the belief that it is wrong but remain believing, practicing Christians. Because you give the church's official answer to all questions like these, I figured you would have the answer to this as well.

I know someone who left the Church for Calvary Chapel, and I believe that she is saved.

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