Sola Scriptura

[eldermike]

JN 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

I think it's pretty easy to know you are saved. We sometimes describe assurance with happy sounding full of joy type explanations. The reality is written here in this scripture. If you are part of the world, the world will love you, if you are part of God's kingdom the world will hate you. Look at Bush, I am sure He's saved and the world is proof of the truth of scripture and the assurance that He's called out of the world.

 

[BT]

BT, you're a mod now. I'm sure PS139, as a more experienced mod, is not going to answer your question because it would violate a forum rule.

If you look up above this post you'll see that you are wrong, he has answered and that is ok. Answering questions is not agains the forum rules. Debating is. There is a difference.

Ask him the question somewhere where it's allowed.

As a Baptist member I am permitted to ask anyone questions in here. As a Christian poster he is permitted to answer questions here. If I disagree with his answer, and post my disagreement he is not allowed to debate my disagreement here.

I don't know if it's kosher to ask him the question in GT or OBOB and post a link here so the rest of us can see the answer. If it's OK, I'm sure some people here would appreciate it.

But as a mod yourself (although not wearing your "mod hat") don't you think it's inappropriate to invite PS139 to debate you in this forum?

As a moderator myself it is a good opportunity to show you how a question/answer should be dealt with, without debating. If one of our members has said something that is not true about the Catholic faith then the Catholic should be able to clarify. If the poster comes back and starts to debate the validity of the Catholic's admitted position... it then becomes a debate. If I misrepresent a Catholic doctrine it is not debating for a Catholic to present the true doctrine, it only becomes debating if we continue to go back and forth on whether the doctrine is "right".

I think it is very appropriate to be an example of how to have a Christian conversation without turning it into a knock-down drag-out brawl. How do you ever expect to learn anything otherwise. I'm not saying that I agree with the Catholic doctrine, all I'm saying is that if it is misrepresented a Catholic person should be allowed to present the truth. That doesn't mean that it is right (according to our beliefs) but it prevents some from spreading half-truths or non-truths about a certain denomination or sect.

 

[ZiSunka]

This is a misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches.

Doesn't the Catholic church teach that to believe with absolute faith that one is saved is a sin? Isn't it called the sin of presumption?

"Christians are to have hope in their salvation (Cf. Colosians 1:23, Hebrews 10:23), not presumption on their salvation through the idea that salvation is guaranteed unconditionally." Catholic Legate article, "Sin of Presumption" by John Pacheco "The Catholic view on justification is that a person’s salvation is based on a gift, but not an unconditional one. Salvation must be considered, at least partly, a reward for obeying the Christian law of love (Cf. Matthew 5:46)....Indeed, true penance requires works and sacrifices in order to show that faith is truly a genuine and real faith. Our Lord seeks not only a confessional faith, but also the fruits of a living and working faith. It is the Catholic position, therefore, that one is saved by: first and foremost by God’s grace alone and secondly by a fiduciary belief in Christ, including repentance of sin, perseverance in faith, and works of faith."

Since one cannot guarantee that he/she will persevere and keep all the commandments throughout their life, or that they will never sin without doing penance for it or that their repentence is enough to cover their specific sins, they cannot not have assurance of salvation. But since "reformers" believe that salvation is through faith and NOT through works at all, and that faith is a gift of God and doesn't even depend on us, that once we have a true confession of faith in Christ, we can be assured of salvation. Otherwise, God would be an indian-giver, which He is not.

 

[Crazy Liz]

If you look up above this post you'll see that you are wrong, he has answered and that is ok. Answering questions is not agains the forum rules. Debating is. There is a difference.


As a Baptist member I am permitted to ask anyone questions in here. As a Christian poster he is permitted to answer questions here. If I disagree with his answer, and post my disagreement he is not allowed to debate my disagreement here.


As a moderator myself it is a good opportunity to show you how a question/answer should be dealt with, without debating. If one of our members has said something that is not true about the Catholic faith then the Catholic should be able to clarify. If the poster comes back and starts to debate the validity of the Catholic's admitted position... it then becomes a debate. If I misrepresent a Catholic doctrine it is not debating for a Catholic to present the true doctrine, it only becomes debating if we continue to go back and forth on whether the doctrine is "right".

I think it is very appropriate to be an example of how to have a Christian conversation without turning it into a knock-down drag-out brawl. How do you ever expect to learn anything otherwise. I'm not saying that I agree with the Catholic doctrine, all I'm saying is that if it is misrepresented a Catholic person should be allowed to present the truth. That doesn't mean that it is right (according to our beliefs) but it prevents some from spreading half-truths or non-truths about a certain denomination or sect.

OK, good. I thought if he posted one more post where he disagreed with you, it would be considered debating. I'm glad you are allowing a bit more leeway.

 

[ps139]

BT
If members are allowed to misrepresent other denominations, and the misrepresented denomination cannot speak up for itself, well that is not fair. I do not think anyone wants that. Sometimes in the Catholic forum I've made an inaccurate remark about a certain denomination's beliefs, someone comes in and says "ps139 you are mistaken on this point," and I welcome the correction. Its perfectly legal as he is not debating my beliefs, but clarifying his own in a place where they've been misrepresented.
I do not expect to convince anyone that what I believe is true, thats not what this forum is for. Those discussions go to GT and other places. BT can ask me whatever he wants, and I can answer him. I cannot attempt to convince him that my belief is true. But I can say what it is, there is a big difference between the two. BT I appreciate your integrity and responsibility here, I appreciate it very much!

 

[ps139]

Doesn't the Catholic church teach that to believe with absolute faith that one is saved is a sin? Isn't it called the sin of presumption?

Yes this is correct.

"Christians are to have hope in their salvation (Cf. Colosians 1:23, Hebrews 10:23), not presumption on their salvation through the idea that salvation is guaranteed unconditionally." Catholic Legate article, "Sin of Presumption" by John Pacheco "The Catholic view on justification is that a person’s salvation is based on a gift, but not an unconditional one. Salvation must be considered, at least partly, a reward for obeying the Christian law of love (Cf. Matthew 5:46)....Indeed, true penance requires works and sacrifices in order to show that faith is truly a genuine and real faith. Our Lord seeks not only a confessional faith, but also the fruits of a living and working faith. It is the Catholic position, therefore, that one is saved by: first and foremost by God’s grace alone and secondly by a fiduciary belief in Christ, including repentance of sin, perseverance in faith, and works of faith."

This is a good summation of our belief.

 

[ZiSunka]

BT
If members are allowed to misrepresent other denominations, and the misrepresented denomination cannot speak up for itself, well that is not fair. I do not think anyone wants that. Sometimes in the Catholic forum I've made an inaccurate remark about a certain denomination's beliefs, someone comes in and says "ps139 you are mistaken on this point," and I welcome the correction. Its perfectly legal as he is not debating my beliefs, but clarifying his own in a place where they've been misrepresented.
I do not expect to convince anyone that what I believe is true, thats not what this forum is for. Those discussions go to GT and other places. BT can ask me whatever he wants, and I can answer him. I cannot attempt to convince him that my belief is true. But I can say what it is, there is a big difference between the two. BT I appreciate your integrity and responsibility here, I appreciate it very much!

I don't believe that I misrepresented Catholic beliefs, as I quoted out of an important Catholic publication called the Catholic Legate. But if you believe that the Catholic Legate has misrepresented your beliefs, you should tell us so we are not misinformed any longer.

 

[ps139]

I don't believe that I misrepresented Catholic beliefs, as I quoted out of an important Catholic publication called the Catholic Legate. But if you believe that the Catholic Legate has misrepresented your beliefs, you should tell us so we are not misinformed any longer.

Hi LL,
I was actually talking about a previous post. I've never heard of the Catholic Legate but the most recent post you made with the quote from that was a good summary of what we believe re: salvation.

 

[ZiSunka]

Hi LL,
I was actually talking about a previous post. I've never heard of the Catholic Legate but the most recent post you made with the quote from that was a good summary of what we believe re: salvation.

Oh sorry, I guess I got the wrong idea.

But I'm glad I was able to find that information, and that it is an accurate representation of what you believe.

 

[Carrye]

Thanks All.