Sola Scriptura - who has the correct interpretation of the WORD?

[LJSGM]

It seems to me that the RCC seems to think that God gave "the church" (who they decide are members of the church) the power to change teachings, doctrines, morality, traditions and reasons for excommunication over to them instead of God keeping that power for himself (defined through the scriptures).

Does this sound about right?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have strong objections to your comparisons of Catholicism to Mormanism. We don't have a new prophet, that has recieve new revelations. The Church safeguards, defines doctrine and dogmas and teaches from already recieved revelation, which is from the Apostles. We believe that the fullness of God's revelation, was thru Jesus Christ.....not something plowed up in a field.

I hear they had some rather bizzare views on Eschatology, much like the Amill view of some.

How the heck did the Millennium start at the resurrection/ascension of Jesus? :o

http://www.gotquestions.org/amillennialism.html

According to Amillennialism, the millennium of Revelation 20:1–6 is being fulfilled spiritually in the present age before the return of Jesus Christ. Thus, the millennium or kingdom of Christ is in existence now. Amillennialists affirm that the millennium began with the resurrection and/or ascension of Christ and will be consummated when Jesus returns again to establish the Eternal Kingdom that is discussed in Revelation 21–22.

Reve 16:17 and the seventh one pours out the bowl of him upon the air, and came out a Voice, great, out of the Sanctuary from the Throne saying :it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 21:6]

 

[JacktheCatholic]

It seems to me that the RCC seems to think that God gave "the church" (who they decide are members of the church) the power to change teachings, doctrines, morality, traditions and reasons for excommunication over to them instead of God keeping that power for himself (defined through the scriptures).

Does this sound about right?

Please stay on topic. This is not about the RCC or any other church that does NOT subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

This thread is to discuss Sola Scriptura with those chruches that subscribe to it.

 

[LJSGM]

Please stay on topic. This is not about the RCC or any other church that does NOT subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

This thread is to discuss Sola Scriptura with those chruches that subscribe to it.

It's very much related. It helps you understand why I believe the way I do about "sola scriptura" (not that I use labels, I may not even agree with every definition that people define it with).

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Moot. The RCC appoints it and it itself alone as the SOLE interpreter of Scripture (technically, the Scripture not in any book or document but "in its own heart) and predeclares that self and self alone, soly, does this infallibly. Read the Catholic Catechism # 85, 87 and 113 for starters.






Yet somehow it's come up with 2,865 points of doctrine in its Catechism....





...as arbitrated by the church alone. Yup, you just defined Sola Ecclesia. It's all outlined in the Catechism, especially # 80-100 plus 113. The term comes from # 85.






The Rule for the RCC is "The Three-Legged-Stool" as Mormons call it. It consists of:

1. The CC's Tradition as the CC chooses, defines and interprets - essentially the corpus of its own teachings. This is usually listed first and given promenence.

2. The Scriptures not in any tome but in the "heart of the Catholic Church" as interpreted by the Catholic Church alone - exclusively and infallibly - so as to agree with #1 above.

3. The Leadership of the CC alone, as chosen and defined by the CC. The CC's own rulings, decisions, interpretations and arbitrations.

These form ONE UNITED SOURCE, one 'stream'; united, supplimental, equal in devotion, reverence, authority and normative function. No "leg" is above or below the other - as if some accountability is involved - all is equally revelatory and true. Thus, the Scripture "in the heart of the CC" MUST agree with the Magisterium of the CC even if only in invisible words that only the CC can "see" and thus is "implied" but in reality just not there.





Not officially, not universally. In fact, it STILL hasn't been. But there is a universal consensus around it - official or not.






1. ALL denominations (officially or by consensus) have embraced the NT canon that God's people did. God's people did this largely in the first century when 18-21 of the 27 books were regarded as Scripture. The rest was formed by the mid 300's at the VERY latest (although the Revelation of John remained in SOME controversay well into the middle ages). When the regional meeting at Hippo (a non ecumenical meeting) declared the lectionary for Sunday readings (not the canon), it simply embraced what had already been determined. This history (and my priest) affirm. NO denomination decided anything about this, they's all pretty much affirmed what God's people decided.

2. No one is saying that the CC has been or is wrong about EVERYTHING or that it MUST be wrong about everything if it's wrong about ANYTHING. You are making an absurd and unfounded assumption. I probably agree with the CC 95% of the time, it doesn't mean that it MUST be correct the other 5% of the time. I agree with Islam on some points, that does NOT mean I MUST agree with it on ALL points.




I'll bet ya that drstevej (a strong Calvinist) and I agree on MUCH more both using Sola Scriptura than you and a Mormon agree on both using Sola Ecclesia. I think that Sola Ecclesia leads to FAR more chaos - as any examination between Catholicism and Mormonism reveals.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah


.

I have strong objections to your comparisons of Catholicism to Mormanism.

Perhaps you can show me where I did. I used an expression that the LDS uses, and as such, identifed it. In honestly, I didn't want it assumed that the expression is a Catholic one.


Is there anything that I posted that you wanted to discuss?






.

 

[Albion]

Please stay on topic. This is not about the RCC or any other church that does NOT subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

This thread is to discuss Sola Scriptura with those chruches that subscribe to it.

Say, Jack....I think you are correct in this instance and it's good to keep to the topic, but I was thinking about all the posts gone by and it started me to wondering. Do you have any feedback for us? After all this, does Sola Scriptura look at all different to you than it did at the start?

 

[Melethiel]

I think we may see less people using this site unless they get it looking better and find a way to bring back the Characters and pets and some of the other stuff as well.

It may drop from 1200 to 2000 users on at anytime to less than 1000 at any time.

Actually this may be a great opportunity for someone to start a site with all the toys the other one had.

They'll be back soon. Still a couple bugs to work out.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Say, Jack....I think you are correct in this instance and it's good to keep to the topic, but I was thinking about all the posts gone by and it started me to wondering. Do you have any feedback for us? After all this, does Sola Scriptura look at all different to you than it did at the start?

About 345 post and 35 pages would put a strain even on me. Perhaps there might be a way for them to just bring up the more important points touched.

I myself am getting burned out on this subject and just too darn lazy to go back thru ALL the posts which many are probably saying the same thing but in different ways.

 

[Albion]

About 345 post and 35 pages would put a strain even on me. Perhaps there might be a way for them to just bring up the more important points touched.

I myself am getting burned out on this subject and just too darn lazy to go back thru ALL the posts which many are probably saying the same thing but in different ways.

As I read your post, LLOJ, I think I built in an ambiguity in my sentence that I didn't intend. I didn't mean that all these posts needed attention, just that after all this time (during which they got written) Jack must surely have reached some conclusions. What are they, I wonder?

He's done an admirable job of keeping everyone to the subject, and he's been a great referee of this thread overall. But now I'm wondering what he thinks himself about the issue after all this time and input. Just a general overview was what I had in mind.

 

[revrobor]

I could have saved you a lot of time guys. The answer to the OP is GOD! And if He's not speaking to you work on it.

 

[sunlover1]

I could have saved you a lot of time guys. The answer to the OP is GOD! And if He's not speaking to you work on it.

Hear His voice, amen.
Key to hearing God is
obedience imo.

sunlover

 

[thereselittleflower]

Hear His voice, amen.
Key to hearing God is
obedience imo.

sunlover

How does one know one is obeying God?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How does one know one is obeying God?

How do the Judeans/Hebrew Israelites of today know they are obeying YHWH?

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him talking, behold!, a cloud, bright, overshadows them. And behold!, a Voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is the Son of ME/YHWH, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".

Acts 3:22 For Moses indeed toward the fathers saying: 'That a prophet to ye shall be raising up Lord, the God of ye out of the brothers of ye as Me. Of Him ye shall be hearing/akousesqe <191> (5695) according to all as much as ever He should be speaking toward ye. [Deut 18]

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the assembly inThyatira, write! Now this is saying the Son of the GOD/YHWH, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to white-copper.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I could have saved you a lot of time guys. The answer to the OP is GOD! And if He's not speaking to you work on it.

Perhaps we need a thread on "how do we know it is YHWH speaking to us"?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Deut 28:13 And YHWH gives you to head and not to tail, and you become surely to above and not you shall become to below. That you shall listen to instructions of YHWH your 'Elohiym which I instructing you the day to observe and to do.

John 8:23 And He said to them, "Ye out of the below/katw <2736> are, I out of the above/anw <507> am. Ye out of this, the world, are. I not am out of the world, this.
24 I said then to ye, that ye shall be dying/apoqaneisqe <599> (5695) in the sins of ye, for if-ever no ye should be believing that I am, ye shall be dying in the sins of ye.'

 

[sunlover1]

How does one know one is obeying God?

That's a good question!

King David Hid His Word in his heart that he might not
sin against God.
And for me, that's been the starting point too.
But there are times when we feel God is telling
us to do something yet that something isnt mentioned
in Scripture, and in that case we need to be able to
hear His Rhema word. We must discern His voice in
contrast to any other voice that may speak.
(Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT by every word
that proceedeth from the mouth of God)

In order to hear HIs voice, I need to know HIM well,
I need to know what His voice sounds like, by formatting
my heart to hear his Rhema Word.
I've done that by studying His written Words.
His Word is a lamp and a light.

sunlover

 

[sunlover1]

Perhaps we need a thread on "how do we know it is YHWH speaking to us"?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And make sure we are using correct and accurate translations?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Mark 3:5 And looking about them with wrath, sorrowing on the hardening/pwrwsei <4457> of their heart, he saith unto the man, "Stretch forth thy hand"!. And he stretcheth it forth; and his hand was restored as the other.
6 And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy Him.

Romans 11:25 For not I am willing ye to being ignorant/agnoein <50> brothers of the mystery, the-this, that no ye may be beside yourselves wise. That a callousness/hardening/pwrwsiV <4457>from part/acriV <891> to-the Israel has become until which the filling/plhrwma <4138> of-the Nations may be entering;

2 Corin 3:14 But was calloused the minds of them. For until the today day, the same covering/kalumma <2571> upon the reading of the Old Covenantis remaining, no being up-covered/anakaluptomenon <343> (5746). That In Christ it is being-taken-away/katargeitai <2673> (5743).

 

[thereselittleflower]

That's a good question!

King David Hid His Word in his heart that he might not
sin against God.

How did King David know what was God's Word?

And for me, that's been the starting point too.

How do you know what is God's Word?

But there are times when we feel God is telling
us to do something yet that something isnt mentioned
in Scripture, and in that case we need to be able to
hear His Rhema word. We must discern His voice in
contrast to any other voice that may speak.

How do you know you are discerning His vioce in contrast to any other voice that may speak?

(Man shall not live by bread alone, BUT by every word
that proceedeth from the mouth of God)

How do you know what proceeds from the mouth of God?

In order to hear HIs voice, I need to know HIM well,
I need to know what His voice sounds like, by formatting
my heart to hear his Rhema Word.

How do you know what His voice sounds like?

How do you "format" your heart to hear His Word?

I've done that by studying His written Words.
His Word is a lamp and a light.

sunlover

How do you know that what you have is indeed His written Word?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How do you know that what you have is indeed His written Word?

Btw. I been meaning to ask. Does the RCC view Revelation as the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse/Daniel 12? Just wondering

Revelation 1:3 Blessed the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it/her having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), for the Time Is-Near/egguV <1451>.

Luke 21:20 Whenever yet ye may be perceiving being compassed by armies/hosts, Jerusalem, then be ye knowing that has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758) the Desolating of Her.
22 That days of vengeance/out-justing these are, of the to be filled all the having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772). [Daniel 12]

 

[sunlover1]

And make sure we are using correct and accurate translations?

Accurate?
Hmm, highly unlikely lol.

How did King David know what was God's Word?

How do you know what is God's Word?

How do you know you are discerning His vioce in contrast to any other voice that may speak?

How do you know what proceeds from the mouth of God?

How do you know what His voice sounds like?

How do you "format" your heart to hear His Word?


How do you know that what you have is indeed His written Word?

I've explained way more than I intended to on this thread adn
I'm sorry that it's so confusing.
As LLOJ said, we need a thread about hearing God.

I'm sorry if you dont know when you're obeying or disobeying God.
I'd simply spend more time in His presence worshipping Him,
He always shows up for that!