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Sola Scriptura and Sola Ecclesia: Accountability and Norming

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stumpjumper

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
So why do some denominaitons exempt themselves from this biblical, wise and humble counsel, as you've insisted one (your own) should?


It seems to ME that if self exempts self from accountability (as you've insisted your denomination must), insists that self is infallible and thus exempt from any norming (as you've insisted your denomination must) - but insists that everyone else must be held accountable and normed - then it has exempted self from the wise advise you here share.

If you think about it C-Josiah, all denominations believe that they are correct. Whether they say that the Church or the Magisterium is infallible or whether they claim to norm everything to scripture and therefore their interpretation and exegesis is infallible.

If a particular group of Christians thought they were wrong on a given issue or doctrine, they would take measures to correct that position. As it stands, though, confessional Lutherans believe the Book of Concord to be an infallible exposition of scripture in the same manner that the Catholic Church states that when the Pope speaks ex-cathedra he is infallible.

IMO, our recorded revelation is not perfect, our reading is not perfect, our interpretations are not perfect. We have faith, hope, and love. The greatest of these is love.

Off to a kids B-day party...
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Asinner said:
Why must it be so complicated?

I agree...

The CC says one thing, the LDS another.
Both self-claim to be His Church.
Both self-claim to have the Apostolic Tradition.
Both self-claim to be the sole final arbiter in matters of dogma.
Both self-claim to be exempt from the possibility that their understanding is flawed (ultimately infallible)

How does the world 2 billion Christians determine which, if either, is teaching correctly? If each is infallible, if each is exempt from accountablity and norming, if each is correct because they just are and everyone else is wrong cuz they say so, they must both be correct - Sola Ecclesia permits no other conclusion. Or it is just a matter of which screams they're right the longest or loudest? Well, there's nothing any can do about it, neither considers themselves accountable for what they teach except to themselves and to God as they themselves so arbitrate. If we use the principle they both insist upon, they MUST both be correct in all things. Okay...



Josiah, the Orthodox Church is accountable to Christ. Period!



All Christians are...

So, if a Calvinist teaches "X" and the Orthodox Church teaches "Y" - there's absolutely no way to conclude who is teaching correctly - truth is unknowable and Pontius Pilate was correct?

IF the Orthodox Church is infallible in all it's own dogmas, then Christ must have normed these teachings as correct? How did/does the Orthodox Church know that Christ approves of everything the Orthodox Church teaches; who/what so declared? Why does this matter if the Orthodox Church is infallible and exempt from any accountability?


The fruits are evident. Within Orthodoxy, there is Grace, Virtue, Unity, Holiness, Universality, Apostolicity . . . Outside of Orthodoxy, within protestantism, this does not exist.

I disagree that those Christians that participate in congregations of the Orthodox Church are more holy than those that participate in congregations of the Catholic Church or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. I think the "fruits of the Spirit" exist outside the rostered membership of the Orthodox denomination. Perhaps we just disagree on this.


The fruits are evident. There are a myriad of teachings and doctrines. This is not the fruit of ONE Spirit.

I suspect (but do not know) that doctrinal unity is greater in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod than it is in the Orthodox Church. What this proves, I don't know. And what this has to do with epistemology and accountability (the subject of this thread), I don't know.




Forget about NORMING.


The Bible warns us repeatedly about false teachers, false prophets, antichrists, those that would lead many astray. We are instructed to norm them. I guess we disagree about that.


It is MY view that embracing a teacher as infallible, unaccountable, above norming because the self-same teacher so self-claims, that he himself is the sole arbiter for his own teachings and beyond any need of norming, is a dangerous system of epistemology. Those that insist on this system completely agree with me, but exempt themselves but only themselves.



MY perspective.


Pax.


- Josiah


.
 
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Asinner

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
I agree...

The CC says one thing, the LDS another.
Both self-claim to be His Church.
Both self-claim to have the Apostolic Tradition.
Both self-claim to be the sole final arbiter in matters of dogma.
Both self-claim to be exempt from the possibility that their understanding is flawed (ultimately infallible)

How does the world 2 billion Christians determine which, if either, is teaching correctly? If each is infallible, if each is exempt from accountablity and norming, if each is correct because they just are and everyone else is wrong cuz they say so, they must both be correct - Sola Ecclesia permits no other conclusion. Or it is just a matter of which screams they're right the longest or loudest? Well, there's nothing any can do about it, neither considers themselves accountable for what they teach except to themselves and to God as they themselves so arbitrate. If we use the principle they both insist upon, they MUST both be correct in all things. Okay...


The truth is where Christ is manifested. Simple.



So, if a Calvinist teaches "X" and the Orthodox Church teaches "Y" - there's absolutely no way to conclude who is teaching correctly - truth is unknowable and Pontius Pilate was correct?


Truth is not knowable through science.



IF the Orthodox Church is infallible in all it's own dogmas, then Christ must have normed these teachings as correct? How did/does the Orthodox Church know that Christ approves of everything the Orthodox Church teaches; who/what so declared? Why does this matter if the Orthodox Church is infallible and exempt from any accountability?

Josiah, the Church is Christ. He is the Head, we are the Body. The Head directs the Body. The Body can do only that which the Head directs. The Body subjects Itself to Christ. How do we know this is true? How do we know that it is Christ who is our Head? Because the Church is Holy, It is One, It is Apostolic, It is Universal. The Church manifests those attributes of Christ.






I disagree that those Christians that participate in congregations of the Orthodox Church are more holy than those that participate in congregations of the Catholic Church or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. I think the "fruits of the Spirit" exist outside the rostered membership of the Orthodox denomination. Perhaps we just disagree on this.

THE CHURCH IS HOLY. The Head, Jesus Christ, is Holy. The Body, the people, are sinful; yet, the Church remains pure and without blemish. The sinfulness of the people do not hinder the Church from being Holy. The Church shelters them and tolerates them, It instructs them that those in Christ will be awakened and roused to repentence and transfiguration. Certainly, there are fruits of the Spirit everywhere. All one must do to see the difference is to read the lives of the saints, to meet a Holy man, and see Christ in them. Josiah, it must be experienced. Before I became Orthodox, I believed many people I knew to be "holy" until I met someone who was Holy. Truly, it is indescribable.




I suspect (but do not know) that doctrinal unity is greater in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod than it is in the Orthodox Church. What this proves, I don't know. And what this has to do with epistemology and accountability (the subject of this thread), I don't know.

Since you have yet to experience Orthodoxy, you are only making assumptions.





The Bible warns us repeatedly about false teachers, false prophets, antichrists, those that would lead many astray. We are instructed to norm them.

We will know them by their fruits! Do they have Humility and Love? Do they deny themselves? Satan cannot mimic Humility! It is the one Virtue, he cannot copy; therefore, if a prophet or teacher, if the antichrist, does not have Humility, we will know by this fruit that they are not of Christ.

It is MY view that embracing a teacher as infallible, unaccountable, above norming because the self-same teacher so self-claims, that he himself is the sole arbiter for his own teachings, is a dangerous system of epistemology. Those that insist on this system completely agree with me, but exempt themselves but only themselves.

Our infallible, unaccountable, above norming teacher, is Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God. He is manifested within the Church. LOOK and SEE!

God Bless :)
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Asinner said:
The truth is where Christ is manifested. Simple.


So, if I see Mormons doing a good job of keeping the Great Commandment and Great Commission, they must be infallible in all their teachings? Unaccountable and above all need of norming?




Josiah, the Church is Christ. He is the Head, we are the Body. The Head directs the Body. The Body can do only that which the Head directs. The Body subjects Itself to Christ. How do we know this is true? How do we know that it is Christ who is our Head? Because the Church is Holy, It is One, It is Apostolic, It is Universal. The Church manifests those attributes of Christ. THE CHURCH IS HOLY. The Head, Jesus Christ, is Holy. The Body, the people, are sinful; yet, the Church remains pure and without blemish. The sinfulness of the people do not hinder the Church from being Holy. The Church shelters them and tolerates them, It instructs them that those in Christ will be awakened and roused to repentence and transfiguration


I agree, which is why I reject the idea that the Orthodox denomination or the Catholic denomination or the LDS denomination essentially is the church of Christ - but we digress, and of course, by the epistemology you seem to be suggesting, if anyone self claims anything and self-claims to be correct, they are.






We will know them by their fruits! Do they have Humility and Love? Do they deny themselves? Satan cannot mimick Humility! It is the one Virtue, he cannot copy; therefore, if a prophet or teacher, if the antichrist, does not have Humility, we will know by this fruit that they are not of Christ.


1. Ever met a Buddhist monk?


2. Is self-proclaiming self to be infallible, above any possibility of having a flawed understanding, that self is unaccountable and above all, that the only one who can evaluate if self is correct is self, is THAT a sign of humility to you?


3. In Matthew 4, was the teacher's teaching evaluated by the life of the teacher, was THAT the norma normans?




Our infallible, unaccountable, above norming teacher, is Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God.

So, it seems to ME, teachers (persons, congregation, denominations) should be accountable to His Word, but we disagree on that.


MY perspective.


Pax.


- Josiah


.
 
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Asinner

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
So, if I see Mormons doing a good job of keeping the Great Commandment and Great Commission, they must be infallible in all their teachings?


Read the life of St. Porphyrios. He is a modern day saint. Compare his life to the life of any mormon.





I agree, which is why I reject the idea that the Orthodox denomination or the Catholic denomination or the LDS denomination essentially is the church of Christ - but we digress, and of course, by the epistemology you seem to be suggesting, if anyone self claims anything and self-claims to be correct, they are.

Anyone can claim to be correct. Doesn't make it so, simply because they claim to be.







1. Ever met a Buddhist monk?

No. Ever met an Orthodox monk?

2. Is self-proclaiming self to be infallible, above any possibility of having a flawed understanding, that self is unaccountable and above all, is THAT a sign of humility to you?

To me, Humility is a death to self, bearing the cross of Christ, true repentence, true obedience . . . Humility is an acceptance of our own sinful state, which includes an acknowledgement of our inability to interpret scripture outside of our passions. The scriptures are already understood, they are already interpreted. Norming something that was normed 2000 years ago, is vain, and takes us away from the cross.

3. In Matthew 4, was the teacher's teaching evaluated by the life of the teacher, was THAT the norma normans?

Was Christ's teaching evaluated by His life? Is this your question?






So, it seems to ME, teachers (persons, congregation, denominations) should be accountable to His Word, but we disagree on that.

His word transcends that which is written. We are ALL accountable to it, whether we acknowledge that or not.



God Bless :)
 
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CaDan

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Upon consideration, it seems to me the OP massively begs the question.

The OP assumes that denominations are human institutions and proceeds from there to argue--correctly--that human institutions cannot and should not be our norms for eternal and divine things. Rather tautological, if you think about it.

But if the Church--the ekklesia--is not a human institution, it seems this analysis breaks down.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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Asinner said:
Anyone can claim to be correct. Doesn't make it so, simply because they claim to be.


Exactly.


There goes Sola Ecclesia, all the self-claims to infalliblity, all the self-claims about being unaccountable, all the self-claims that self is correct because self says self is correct, all the self-claims that self is the "sole final arbiter" in doctrine, all the self-claims of special insider infallible information, etc., etc., etc.




Humility is an acceptance of our own sinful state, which includes an acknowledgement of our inability to interpret scripture outside of our passions.


Exactly.

So why is your denomination exempt?
But only your denomination?



My perspective...


Pax.


- Josiah


.


 
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a_ntv

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I know a little about Evangelism in Europe, that IMO is VERY different from the US Protestantism I can see here on GT. And a very few people here on GT look like for me to be the ones more near to Evangelism in Europe (Italy and Germany). These people are firlmy against sola Ecclesia.

IMO The problem in some groups is the 'weak thought' (I dont know the right English word)

It means that, for a lot of reasons, we are not able to state 'Strong Truths'.
Every strong truth have a opposite, and both of them are accountable to the norm. So, how to choose the right one?
If we reject completly Sola Ecclesia, we cannot state any 'Strong Truth'.

Which is the result? no more strong statments, only vague statments: Jesus is love, the Cross is important, we shall convert, love each other..

These statments are not wrong at all, but Christians shall be as saints as the Martyrs are.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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CaDan said:
But if the Church--the ekklesia--is not a human institution, it seems this analysis breaks down.




Of course, I don't believe that the Church is an institution, not even the one to which the congregation where I participate is associated.


Which is why I don't think any institution essentially IS the Church (indeed Christ Himself). Protestants tend not to agree with the institutionalization of Christ and Christianity. I think Christians are people, that the church consists of people - Christian people, His people. That when Jesus said, "I am with you always" He didn't mean "I am with the RCC or LDS or EO or WELS - you figure out which institution - always."


Indeed, if the rubric is that a teacher (person, congregation,denomination) is correct if it self-claims that it is, infallible and unaccountable if it self-claims that it is, the sole arbiter in doctrine if it self-claims that it is, the possessors of special infallible extra-biblical divine revelation if it says it self-claims that it is, then the LDS is the Church of Christ, it is the steward of Tradition, it does have special revelation direct from God, it is the 'sole arbiter" in matters of doctrine, it is infallible and unaccountable - above norming. So are all the other denominations and "prophets" that embrace this epistemology. The odd thing is, the LDS insists - boldly - that this MUST be the epistemology used, but they reject and repudiate the very same principle as circular and self-authenticating, amazingly egotistical when the CC uses it. I tend to think that one (or theoretically both) are wrong - at least where you two conflict (which is pretty much everywhere). But, using the principle you both demand - I have no choice but to conclude you are both infallible, divinely-inspired, apostolic, authoritative, unaccountable and above norming - right (infallibly) because you so self-claim. Now, as a Protestant, I tend to norm those conflicts according to Scripture. As I do, I find nearly everything the CC teaches as normed and virtually nothing the LDS says as normed, I think the community of Christians (past and present) - the church catholic - overwhelmingly concur in this arbitration - but we're using a principle you both insist, INSIST, MUST not be used, one both strongly and boldly rebuke (one of the few things these two teachers both agree on), what I MUST do is accept that a teacher is infallible and unaccountable for everything they teach and claim if they so self-claim (but only if that teacher is you). Some conclude that's not good epistemology.
It certainly seems like an impossible way to norm which of you is correct, an impossible way to advance consensus and unity.


MY perspective...
(We will strongly disagree, I realize)


Pax.


- Josiah


.
 
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Asinner

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CaDan said:
Upon consideration, it seems to me the OP massively begs the question.

The OP assumes that denominations are human institutions and proceeds from there to argue--correctly--that human institutions cannot and should not be our norms for eternal and divine things. Rather tautological, if you think about it.

But if the Church--the ekklesia--is not a human institution, it seems this analysis breaks down.

Absolutely! :) His Kingdom is not of this world.

God Bless
 
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CaDan

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
Of course, I don't believe that the Church is an institution, not even the one to which the congregation where I participate is associated.


Which is why I don't think any institution essentially IS the Church (indeed Christ Himself). Protestants tend not to agree with the institutionalization of Christ and Christianity. I think Christians are people, that the church consists of people - Christian people, His people. That when Jesus said, "I am with you always" He didn't mean "I am with the RCC or LDS or EO or WELS - you figure out which institution - always."


Indeed, if the rubric is that a teacher (person, congregation,denomination) is correct if it self-claims that it is, infallible and unaccountable if it self-claims that it is, the sole arbiter in doctrine if it self-claims that it is, the possessors of special infallible extra-biblical divine revelation if it says it self-claims that it is, then the LDS is the Church of Christ, it is the steward of Tradition, it does have special revelation direct from God, it is the 'sole arbiter" in matters of doctrine, it is infallible and unaccountable - above norming. So are all the other denominations and "prophets" that embrace this epistemology. The odd thing is, the LDS insists - boldly - that this MUST be the epistemology used, but they reject and repudiate the very same principle as circular and self-authenticating, amazingly egotistical when the CC uses it. I tend to think that one (or theoretically both) are wrong - at least where you two conflict (which is pretty much everywhere). But, using the principle you both demand - I have no choice but to conclude you are both infallible, divinely-inspired, apostolic, authoritative, unaccountable and above norming - right (infallibly) because you so self-claim. Now, as a Protestant, I tend to norm those conflicts according to Scripture. As I do, I find nearly everything the CC teaches as normed and virtually nothing the LDS says as normed, I think the community of Christians (past and present) - the church catholic - overwhelmingly concur in this arbitration - but we're using a principle you both insist, INSIST, MUST not be used, one both strongly and boldly rebuke (one of the few things these two teachers both agree on), what I MUST do is accept that a teacher is infallible and unaccountable for everything they teach and claim if they so self-claim (but only if that teacher is you). Some conclude that's not good epistemology.
It certainly seems like an impossible way to norm which of you is correct, an impossible way to advance consensus and unity.


MY perspective...
(We will strongly disagree, I realize)


Pax.


- Josiah


.

You continue to beg the question.
 
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a_ntv

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
I think Christians are people, that the church consists of people - Christian people, His people. That when Jesus said, "I am with you always"

Here we dont agree.

The Church is the Body of Christ.
Not metaphorically. The part of us that is part of the Church (the saint new man), is in Christ and Christ is in him.
Church is by far more than a group of people that have the same faith.
 
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Asinner

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
Exactly.


There goes Sola Ecclesia, all the self-claims to infalliblity, all the self-claims about being unaccountable, all the self-claims that self is correct because self says self is correct, all the self-claims that self is the "sole final arbiter" in doctrine, all the self-claims of special insider infallible information, etc., etc., etc.

Exactly.

So why is your denomination exempt?
But only your denomination?



*Asinner throws hands up into air*

You are over-analyzing the Kingdom of God. These discussions are fruitless if you attempt to understand and define the Church using human criteria. Terms like "norma normans" and "hermaneutics" are irrelevant in Christ's Kingdom. One could have a perfect understanding of scripture, yet still not be in the Kingdom of God. Satan used scripture, as did all the heretics of past and present. It must begin with repentance. It must begin with tears, then obedience . . . Knowledge is attained through acquiring the Virtues and a reception of Grace. Trying to understand the Church with our mind cannot happen until it is understood with our heart.

God Bless :)
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
Indeed, if the rubric is that a teacher (person, congregation,denomination) is correct if it self-claims that it is, infallible and unaccountable if it self-claims that it is, the sole arbiter in doctrine if it self-claims that it is, the possessors of special infallible extra-biblical divine revelation if it says it self-claims that it is, then the LDS is the Church of Christ, it is the steward of Tradition, it does have special revelation direct from God, it is the 'sole arbiter" in matters of doctrine, it is infallible and unaccountable - above norming. So are all the other denominations and "prophets" that embrace this epistemology. The odd thing is, the LDS insists - boldly - that this MUST be the epistemology used, but they reject and repudiate the very same principle as circular and self-authenticating, amazingly egotistical when the CC uses it. I tend to think that one (or theoretically both) are wrong - at least where you two conflict (which is pretty much everywhere). But, using the principle you both demand - I have no choice but to conclude you are both infallible, divinely-inspired, apostolic, authoritative, unaccountable and above norming - right (infallibly) because you so self-claim. Now, as a Protestant, I tend to norm those conflicts according to Scripture. As I do, I find nearly everything the CC teaches as normed and virtually nothing the LDS says as normed, I think the community of Christians (past and present) - the church catholic - overwhelmingly concur in this arbitration - but we're using a principle you both insist, INSIST, MUST not be used, one both strongly and boldly rebuke (one of the few things these two teachers both agree on), what I MUST do is accept that a teacher is infallible and unaccountable for everything they teach and claim if they so self-claim (but only if that teacher is you). Some conclude that's not good epistemology.
It certainly seems like an impossible way to norm which of you is correct, an impossible way to advance consensus and unity.


MY perspective...
(We will strongly disagree, I realize)



Yes, we do.



The congregation where I participate is not asociated with the RCC or the LDS or the EO denominations.


The LDS infallibly teaches "X" and the CC says that's wrong, they teach "Y" They are exclusive and cannot both be correct. But both of you are infallible, unaccountable and above all norming, both of you the stewards of special extra-biblcial infallible information from God Himself, both of you are the sole arbiter for doctrine, so both of you are infallibly correct.

What are the world's Christians (members of the Body of Christ) to do with this conflict in dogma? Most of us don't participate in congregations of either of these two infallible, self-arbitrating, unaccountable, above norming groups?

Here's what I've been offered by those embracing Sola Ecclesia:

1. If they say they are right, they are - as long as it happens to be the denomination to which I am registered.

2. If they have humility, they can self-claim to be infallible, unaccountable, and above all norming; they can self-declare themselves to be the own self-arbiter for dogma (infallibly so) and their own teachings as the Rule for such, but only if they are humble.

Neither helps me much. They both claim to be the Church and to be infallible, unaccountable and above norming. And I don't belong to either of them. That doesn't seem to help much.

The LDS certainly is humble about all this, and I PERSONALLY have witnessed Mormons in all kinds of evangelistic and serving ministries (I've personally not witnessed any EO's there, I have witnessed Catholics in great loving ways but not in evangelism as much as the LDS). Actually, the most humble, loving man I know happens to be my grandfather who doesn't belong to either the RCC or LDS - this doesn't seem to help much, either.

Is there something all agree is from God? Something infallible, authoritative, apostolic, DIVINELY-inspired that we all embrace, something God gave to all His people? And it would help - a LOT - if it were written, by divine inspiration, something unalterable and knowable by Mormons and Catholics and those of us inquiring? That would help! Otherwise, we're stuck with "he says, she says - and they both are infallible." OR we are left with pure relativism - Pilate was right, it's completely unknowable; who knows? Who cares? If you believe it in your heart, it's right for YOU. I wouldn't have a PRACTICAL problem with such pure relativism except that they all insist it's right for everyone else, too - infallibly so, cuz they say so.


MY perspective...


Pax.


- Josiah


.
 
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CaliforniaJosiah

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
.


Principles of Norming: Accountability in teaching



The purpose of an epistemological principle of norming is to provide a "check" if you will, some accountability, to avoid the "I'm just right cuz I say I am" problem.

There are two teachers (persons, congregations, denominations, etc.), teaching different things. What principle or process would best help Christians decide which (if either) is correct?

Is any principle going to be infallible, unable to be misused? No, but some will be more helpful than others.



There are two issues involved:


1. WHO/WHAT will do this evaluation? This is called "arbitration."

2. WHAT will serve as the "rule"? The evaluation will be made on the basis of what? This is called the Rule (in legal issues, the Rule is often the written law, so this is called the 'Rule of Law') or the 'Canon' (literally, the measuring stick, the ruler, the standard, the norm) This is called the "norma normans" (the norm which norms).




Let's look at the two common principles of norming commonly embraced in contemporary Christianity:


Sola Ecclesia: (Church Alone)

The teacher (WHO or WHATEVER is presenting the view - that could be a person, a congregation, a denomination, etc.) is the "sole final arbiter" for himself/itself.


Since the "teacher" here is often a denomination, the principle is often known by "Sola Ecclesia" but the principle is the same if the teacher is an individual person.

In this principle, the teacher self-claims to alone have the authority (often infallibly so) to evaluate himself.

The "rule" for his own self-arbitration includes everything he teaches (which, of course, may well include the very teaching being evaluated, "normed").

Often, the unavoidable result of this principle is self-claimed to be infallible, and thus unaccountable, so that norming is moot.



Sola Scriptura: (Scripture Alone)


The Rule, Canon, Standard for this evaluation is not the teaching itself but God's holy written Word, the Word that virtually all Christians (for 1600-1900 years) have embraced as Authoritative, Apostolic, Infallible, DIVINELY-inspired, and true. And it is written - in exact words we all agree on, words no one can alter to suit himself, not the "phantom" of what the self-same teacher self-claims is something God forgot to include in Scriptures but delivered to them as a secret although they cannot provide any evidence of such.


The issue of arbitration isn't actually addressed in the principle of Sola Scripture. Many that embrace this tool view that the "arbiter" is the church, the Body of Christ, the "one holy catholic and apostolic church" the "communion of saints." It includes all Christians (including those now dead - equally, not lesser or greater - with those now living). Consensus is usually the goal. Self does not arbitrate self. But some that embrace believe that the arbiter is each individual (in that case, embracing the same arbitration factor as Sola Ecclesia).



An Illustration:

ANY illustration is limited and flawed, but an often used one in this discussion is the legal system.

Sola Scriptura example: The Rule of Law prevails, all must be in harmony and concord with the written law of the land. Everyone from the policeman to the judge to the jury are to norm what they decide and do with the law of the land (the 'Rule' is the law - thus this is known as the "Rule of Law"). Of course, that must be adjudicated (arbitrated) and that is done by consensus - perhaps by a jury. Such is not infallible and can be appealed, so the adjudication is not the norma normans but rather the arbitration.


Sola Ecclesia example: The accused (teacher) is the "sole final arbiter" for himself. He alone can determine his guilt or innocense, correctness or falsehood. The norma normans for this evaluation is his own viewpoints or teachings (Tradition) as he himself so defines, interprets and applies. He is accountable only to himself and to God as he himself so determines.





MY evaluation:

Can Sola Ecclesia supply the necessary accountablity and avoid the self-authentication needed to provide the required norming? IMHO, no, it cannot, no matter who or what is the arbiter. It is, by definition, self-authenticating and rejects accountability.

This is abundantly obvious to many because no one seems to condemn the principle more than those who insist on it. They rebuke and ridicule this approach - boldly and strongly - when any other uses it, BUT insist that they themselves (but only they themselves) MUST use it. It's perfect for they themselves to us but absurd any other uses it.

IMHO, if the principle is as bad as they insist it is, then it's bad even when they use it.


Sola Scriptura removes the "self norms self according to self" circle and thus can provide accountability. It CAN do what Sola Ecclesia CANNOT do.


Admittedly: it ain't easy. It takes humility, study, work, prayer, time. I confess, it is so much easier and quicker to just have a Dictator say "I say!" and everyone shuts up, a Dictator who self-claims to be infallible and unaccountable, above Gods Word and people, above the law; a Dictator of amazing ego. Some, however, just aren't sure that's a better system of accountability - and that's what we're talking about - accountability.

The problem for Sola Scriptura, of course, is that humility and patience are RARE commodities among Christians and consensus is much easier said than done. We HAVE done it in nearly all things - I'd guess 90% of Christians agree on 90% of dogmas, but there are things that even now - 2,000 years into things - still lack consensus. These include: The infallibility of the Roman Pontiff, the Assumption of Mary, the "accident" explaination in the dogma of the Eucharist, the necessity of obedience to the Roman Pontiff for salvation, OSAS, and some other things. These issues remain, a consensus does not exist. Some allow the continuing discussion, prayer and study of these things - but those using Sola Ecclesia insist they themselves have SPOKEN dogmatically and are unaccountable and infallible.


That's MY perspective.
What's yours?


Pax.


- Josiah


.



The purpose of an epistemological principle of norming is to provide a "check" if you will, some accountability, to avoid the "I'm just right cuz I say I am" problem.


We have discussed for 10 pages the two principles of norming in common use today - the two being promoted: Sola Ecclesia (especially by the CC, EO, OO, LDS, modern "prophet" ministries, and some others) and Sola Scriptura (especially by many Protestant communities).


The question is just this: Which is more likely to provide for the desired accountablity and avoid the self-authentication that such a principle is to provide?


OF COURSE, no approach/method/tool is perfect and infallible no matter how used, but that's not the issue. The issue is which is more capable of doing what it is embraced to do? Which is the better principle of norming? The purpose of an epistemological principle of norming is to provide a "check" if you will, some accountability, to avoid the "I'm just right cuz I say I am" problem.


MY perspective.


Pax.


- Josiah


.


 
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a_ntv

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CaliforniaJosiah said:
We have discussed for 10 pages the two principles of norming in common use today - the two being promoted: Sola Ecclesia (especially by the CC, EO, OO, LDS, modern "prophet" ministries, and some others) and Sola Scriptura (especially by many Protestant communities).

As I told many times, the contrary of sola scriptura in NOT sola ecclesia.
Nor CC, EO, OO, held sola ecclesia.
The Tradition is not 'to be free to discover any doctrine'
And I've never seen excepts for tradition read at Mass or incensed as Word of God

CaliforniaJosiah said:
The question is just this: Which is more likely to provide for the desired accountablity and avoid the self-authentication that such a principle is to provide?

No, it is not to us to decide a single comma in religion.
Humiliy, deny ourself, take His cross: that is our job.
 
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