Sola Fide (faith alone)

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

What is the Messianic position on Sola Fide (faith alone)?

Lulav · Apr 22, 2011

Faith alone as compared to what?

Faith alone in what?

(Welcome to CF)

A_Pioneer · Apr 22, 2011

fschmidt said:
What is the Messianic position on Sola Fide (faith alone)?

MOO/my opinion only! A little more than that!
1 ¶ Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Yeshua HaMashiach :
2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Yeshua our Lord.
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.
5 ¶ For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Yeshua HaMashiach.
9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;
11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Yeshua HaMashiach.

I for one, test everything by the "Word of God", which starts with Torah.
Romans 10:17 So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Mashiach.

Sola Fide could be in anything! Would it count? i.e. seat belts?

Beautiful are the feet-----------.

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

Lulav said:
Faith alone as compared to what?

Acts - acting morally

Faith alone in what?

Religion - God, Christ, etc.

Lulav · Apr 22, 2011

Generally MJ does not operate on faith alone. But mainly by what James said, 'Faith without works is dead'.

You have faith in G-d (not religion) and you follow his commandments.

For example, I can sit here all day and tell you 'I love you', but unless I back that up with a 'work' to follow through, it's just empty words or lies.

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

Thank you Lulav. One other question, why do you write "G-d" instead of "God"?

Lulav · Apr 22, 2011

Welcome
Respect and reverence for HaShem = The Name.

rsduncan · Apr 22, 2011

James 2 (KJV) said:
James 2

1My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.

2For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;

3And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

4Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

6But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?

7Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

...

yedida · Apr 22, 2011

Works alone without faith is dead
Faith alone without works is dead
Faith and works bound up together, holding each other upright and shining forth the glory of Hashem - now we're talking about something that cannot fail.

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

yedida said:
Works alone without faith is dead

What is your source for this? I would prefer a source other than Paul since I don't like Paul.

carebeargiver · Apr 22, 2011

fschmidt said:
What is your source for this? I would prefer a source other than Paul since I don't like Paul.

James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believeand shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousnessand he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

carebeargiver, please excuse my confusion but I see your quote as explaining "Faith alone without works is dead" but not "Works alone without faith is dead".

yedida · Apr 22, 2011

fschmidt said:
What is your source for this? I would prefer a source other than Paul since I don't like Paul.

I don't fully trust him either.
Look at James 2 and then also check out Yeshua's words in Rev. to the churches - He speaks of works, not faith. In fact, He only mentions faith about 4 times. Check out Rev. 19:8.
In Matthew what is the difference between those that said. "Lord, Lord, have we...." One group did things, the other did nothing - which group did Yeshua say he knew them not?

yedida · Apr 22, 2011

Aaaah OK, got cha!
Works have never been a means of salvation, neither in the Levitical sacrifice system, not today. There must be a marriage of both works and faith. It's always been that way.

carebeargiver · Apr 22, 2011

fschmidt said:
carebeargiver, please excuse my confusion but I see your quote as explaining "Faith alone without works is dead" but not "Works alone without faith is dead".

Well, James is saying they go hand in hand.

If you don't have faith, why would you do the works anyways?

yonah_mishael · Apr 22, 2011

carebeargiver said:
Well, James is saying they go hand in hand.

If you don't have faith, why would you do the works anyways?

For show? To make people think that you were one of them so that they would like you? To get political advantage? Loads of people express religion on the outside for political distinction and to win votes.

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

yedida said:
Aaaah OK, got cha!
Works have never been a means of salvation, neither in the Levitical sacrifice system, not today. There must be a marriage of both works and faith. It's always been that way.

How do you explain the Rechabites in Jeremiah 35? They had no faith in God, only in the words of their ancestors. Yet God praised them and said he would defend them.

fschmidt · Apr 22, 2011

carebeargiver said:
If you don't have faith, why would you do the works anyways?

There are plenty of moral systems not based on God, like Confucianism, Buddhism, etc. Morality is a natural instinct that competes with greed. Even pack animals like wolves will sacrifice to help each other.

yedida · Apr 22, 2011

fschmidt said:
How do you explain the Rechabites in Jeremiah 35? They had no faith in God, only in the words of their ancestors. Yet God praised them and said he would defend them.

I believe you may be wrong about their faith in the God of Israel. They hailed from a group of Kenites who had attached themselves to Israel in the wilderness. They were not Israelites, but they did obey the laws God had given to Moses, as well as what they had learned from their own elders.
Hashem used them as examples for His chosen. He had sent prophet after prophet to speak His word to His people and Judah refused to listen. His point would be if He honored the obedience of a group not belonging to His people how much more would He honor His own people's obedience to His words?

ContraMundum · Apr 22, 2011

Lulav said:
Generally MJ does not operate on faith alone. But mainly by what James said, 'Faith without works is dead'.

The terms "faith alone" and "faith without works is dead" are not contrasting theologies.

Properly understood, Sola Fide refers only justification by faith alone and by no other means, whereas James is speaking of the evidence of that saving faith.

You have faith in G-d (not religion) and you follow his commandments.

For example, I can sit here all day and tell you 'I love you', but unless I back that up with a 'work' to follow through, it's just empty words or lies.

The example works both ways. The act does not make the love. The act demonstrates and confirms the love.

The bottom line in the Sola Fide question is that man cannot by works earn his justification. No works he does can contribute to justification. His works are the wrong currency. Only faith justifies a man (as the example of Abraham shows) but true faith is shown in action (as further demonstrated by Abraham)

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