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Sodomites!!!!

Gusoceros

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No, you ignore it, because they had no knowledge of a sexual orientation back then, which is why it wasn't mentioned.

I ignore it because it isnt relevant- you want to make this about temptation- it isnt about temptation (read orientation). You are not judged according to your orientation, rather by what you do with the temptation.

You have yet to mention a loving, monogamous relationship condemned, and there is NO MENTION of the act, whatsoever. Leviticus falls under a purity code violation. If God set his standard in the earth that this was wrong, it would've been a MORAL violation from the start.

This is also irrelevant AND wrong. I have cited time and again the NT verses that note the act.

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due."
—Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."
—1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
"Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,"
—1 Timothy 1:9-10 (NKJV)

You are just like those sheep, you just follow whatever comes out of doctrine. Have you actually prayed to God about this topic? are you even clear in your leading of the Holy Spirit? Why are you here...why is this more important than any other sin to you?

I have not once cited doctrine- you are misrepresenting my argument. Please stick to the facts, and quit putting words in my mouth.

G
 
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savedandhappy1

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H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

abomination.

H8581
תּעב
tâ‛ab
taw-ab'
A primitive root; to loathe, that is, (morally) detest: - (make to be) abhor (-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable (-y), X utterly.

Lev. 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So is abomination a verb, a noun, or a root word in verse 22?
 
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davedjy

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H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

abomination.

H8581
תּעב
tâ‛ab
taw-ab'
A primitive root; to loathe, that is, (morally) detest: - (make to be) abhor (-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable (-y), X utterly.

Lev. 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So is abomination a verb, a noun, or a root word in verse 22?
The Blueletterbible definition is more specific:

Tow'ebah

1) a disgusting thing, abomination, abominable
a) in ritual sense (of unclean food, idols, mixed marriages)
b) in ethical sense (of wickedness etc)


As said, the scholars agree this verse is NOT a moral violation, it is a purity code violation. The menstrual cycle one is mixed in as well, with these verses.

Anyone still care to show me the one about "Thou shall not lie with womankind as with mankind?" (the opposite).
 
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UberLutheran

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So, are you saying the translaters of the KJV didn't do that, when we all know how Godly, and intelligent they were?

Uhmmmmm --- King James was a sodomite. The person whose translation you all idolize was himself a sodomite.

Prithee, forsooth!
 
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ScottBot

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Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom, that's it!

Any other word usage here, is a culture interpretation and nothing more! it does not refer to anal sexual relations, this is some made up word choice here. It derives from the city of Sodom, where the only thing sexually practiced and condemned in Scripture is raping of the visitors, raping of the angelic hosts that came to the City (strange flesh=heteros, another flesh), unwelcoming behavior, and repeated economic crimes. Sodom and Gomorrah were not destroyed for homosexual activity, but it was for repeated economic crimes. (See Ezekiel 16:48-50)

Now, about this time the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and avoided any contact with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance, and not only to uproot their city, but to blast their land so completely that it should yield neither plant nor fruit whatsoever from that time forward. ”

— Jewish Antiquities 1:194-195

nd the angels came to the city of the Sodomites...when the Sodomites beheld the young men, who were outstanding in beauty of appearance and who had been received into Lots’s house, they set about to do violence and outrage to their youthful beauty....Therefore, God, indignant at their bold acts, struck them with blindness, so that they were unable to find the entrance into the house, and condemned the Sodomites to destruction of the whole population. ”

— Jewish Antiquities 1:199-202



Let’s first look at the historic context of Sodom and Gamorrah. The story goes that God sends two angels to Sodom, where Abraham’s nephew, Lot, persuades them to stay in his home. Genesis 19 records that “all of the people from every quarter” surrounded Lot’s house demanding the release of the visitors so “we might know them” or in other words have sexual relations with them. Horrified by this gross violation of ancient hospitality rules, Lot refuses to give them over to the angry crowd. Lot flees Sodom with his family and the city it is destroyed by fire from heaven. Literalist and conservatives have contended that Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality. However, there are at least three reasons why this story is not about homosexuality or its condemnation.

First, the city of Sodom was slated for destruction long before this homosexual incident. Ezekial 16:48-50 states it clearly, “As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy.”

Second, all of Sodom’s people participated in the assault on Lot’s house, and in no culture has more than a small minority of the population been homosexual.

And finally, and most importantly, no other passages in the Bible that refer to the destruction of Sodom ever raise the issue of homosexuality. If indeed the story of Sodom and Gamorrah is about sexual morality, then Lot’s gesture to allow his daughters to be raped by the crowd instead of the visitors should put into question its modern moral value.
Nice, subjective, thoroughly modern reinvention of Scriptural interpretation.
 
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davedjy

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Nice, subjective, thoroughly modern reinvention of Scriptural interpretation.
Not modern reinvention, I used Scriptural proofs to make my points. Why are you making this about reinvention? LOL!!!!! I reinvented the sin of Sodom mentioned in Ephesians?

Show me where the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for monogamous, same sex relationship behavior? Are you going to believe that it was destroyed for loving, monogamous relationships not even recognized till the 19th century or what the Bible says?
 
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BigChrisfilm

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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Sodomy
sod·om·y /ˈsɒd
thinsp.png
ə
thinsp.png
mi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[sod-uh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun

1.anal or oral copulation with a member of the opposite sex.
2.copulation with a member of the same sex.
3.bestiality (def. 4).

[Origin: 1250&#8211;1300; ME sodomie < OF. See Sodom, -y3
thinsp.png
]
 
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savedandhappy1

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So... you want to use a word whose definition can be traced to 1250... in relation to writings from +/- 2000 years before?
Anyone else see the logical flaw here?​


If you will look at the Gay Christians thread, you will find where sodomy was being used in 465 AD. So anyone see the logical flaw you are trying to make?​


Having some computer problems but will try and get that link for you.

OOPS told you the wrong thread and year, but here you go.

The story of Sodom has given rise to words in several languages, including English: the word "sodomy", meaning acts (stigmatized as "unnatural vice") such as homosexuality and anal sex and the word "sodomite", meaning one who practices such acts.

In the Middle Ages, the terms "sodomite" and "buggery" were defined as homosexual practices, and the arguably gay Richard I of England was ordered by a priest to keep in mind "the sin of Sodom".

Middle Ages
pl.n.
The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from A.D. 476 to 1453

First century Christian and Jewish opinions

The Epistle of Jude in the New Testament echoes the Genesis narrative and recalls mainly the sexually immoral aspects of Sodom's sins: &#8220;&#8230;just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire&#8221; (v. 7, English Standard Version). The phrase rendered &#8220;unnatural desire&#8221; is literally translated &#8220;strange flesh&#8221;, but it is not entirely clear what it refers to. The ESV translators supply one plausible paraphrase in making the phrase refer to the illicit sexual activity of the Genesis account (cf. the language of the epistle to the Romans 1:21-32), but another theory is that it is just a reference to the &#8220;strange flesh&#8221; of the intended rape victims, who were angels, not men.
The Jewish historian Josephus used the term &#8220;Sodomites&#8221; summarizing the Genesis narrative: &#8220;About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices&#8221; (Antiquities 1.11.1 [2] &#8212; circa A.D. 96). The final element of his assessment goes beyond the Biblical data, even in the New Testament. Nonetheless, this meaning is the primary one used today.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sodomy


 
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BigChrisfilm

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Uhmmmmm --- King James was a sodomite. The person whose translation you all idolize was himself a sodomite.

Prithee, forsooth!
He wasn't gay, that is a lie. Been refuted many times as well.
 
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davedjy

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H8441
&#1514;&#1468;&#1506;&#1489;&#1492; &#1514;&#1468;&#1493;&#1506;&#1489;&#1492;
to&#770;&#8219;e&#770;bah to&#770;&#8219;e&#770;bah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.

abomination.

H8581
&#1514;&#1468;&#1506;&#1489;
ta&#770;&#8219;ab
taw-ab'
A primitive root; to loathe, that is, (morally) detest: - (make to be) abhor (-red), (be, commit more, do) abominable (-y), X utterly.

Lev. 18:22
22Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

So is abomination a verb, a noun, or a root word in verse 22?
You are only pulling ONE of the definitions of tow'ebah, but it is agreed upon that the word usage here is within the dietary and ritual/ceremonial laws!
 
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davedjy

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He wasn't gay, that is a lie. Been refuted many times as well.
A sodomite is not someone gay, it is an inhabitor of Sodom. Many straight people RAPED the same sex guest inhabitants, it has NOTHING to do with lustful drive, just control!

Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom
 
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BigChrisfilm

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A sodomite is not someone gay, it is an inhabitor of Sodom. Many straight people RAPED the same sex guest inhabitants, it has NOTHING to do with lustful drive, just control!

Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom
Yes, you are correct. It means that, AND homosexuals.
 
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davedjy

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Yes, you are correct. It means that, AND homosexuals.
You haven't proved that by Scriptural standards, only by your doctrinal beliefs, and maybe a dictionary 2nd definition from a cultural inheritance belief. A word did exist for homosexuality at the time...and guess what? it was never used! the word: homophilia. Paul had clear knowledge of the word...never used it once!
 
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Der Alte

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...
Show me where the Bible says that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed for monogamous, same sex relationship behavior? Are you going to believe that it was destroyed for loving, monogamous relationships not even recognized till the 19th century or what the Bible says?

Does anyone else see the blatant contradiction between these two posts?

You haven't proved that by Scriptural standards, only by your doctrinal beliefs, and maybe a dictionary 2nd definition from a cultural inheritance belief. A word did exist for homosexuality at the time...and guess what? it was never used! the word: homophilia. Paul had clear knowledge of the word...never used it once!

And OBTW show some historical evidence for the claim that "homophilia existed in the 1st century and is not a 20th century made up word? And I will even give you a link to the Liddell-Scott-Jones Classical Greek lexicon. This lexicon catalogues the use of classical Greek from ca. 800 BC - ca. 200 AD.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
 
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davedjy

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Does anyone else see the blatant contradiction between these two posts?



And OBTW show some historical evidence for the claim that "homophilia existed in the 1st century and is not a 20th century made up word? And I will even give you a link to the Liddell-Scott-Jones Classical Greek lexicon. This lexicon catalogues the use of classical Greek from ca. 800 BC - ca. 200 AD.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform
I said it wasn't recognized in a loving MONOGAMOUS relationship. Why don't you ask, before accusing me of contradicting myself??? :confused:
 
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savedandhappy1

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A sodomite is not someone gay, it is an inhabitor of Sodom. Many straight people RAPED the same sex guest inhabitants, it has NOTHING to do with lustful drive, just control!

Sodomite = inhabitor of Sodom

The story of Sodom has given rise to words in several languages, including English: the word "sodomy", meaning acts (stigmatized as "unnatural vice") such as homosexuality and anal sex and the word "sodomite", meaning one who practices such acts.

In the Middle Ages, the terms "sodomite" and "buggery" were defined as homosexual practices, and the arguably gay Richard I of England was ordered by a priest to keep in mind "the sin of Sodom".

Middle Ages
pl.n.
The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from A.D. 476 to 1453

First century Christian and Jewish opinions

The Epistle of Jude in the New Testament echoes the Genesis narrative and recalls mainly the sexually immoral aspects of Sodom's sins: “…just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire” (v. 7, English Standard Version). The phrase rendered “unnatural desire” is literally translated “strange flesh”, but it is not entirely clear what it refers to. The ESV translators supply one plausible paraphrase in making the phrase refer to the illicit sexual activity of the Genesis account (cf. the language of the epistle to the Romans 1:21-32), but another theory is that it is just a reference to the “strange flesh” of the intended rape victims, who were angels, not men.
The Jewish historian Josephus used the term “Sodomites” summarizing the Genesis narrative: “About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices” (Antiquities 1.11.1 [2] — circa A.D. 96). The final element of his assessment goes beyond the Biblical data, even in the New Testament. Nonetheless, this meaning is the primary one used today.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sodomy


 
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davedjy

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The story of Sodom has given rise to words in several languages, including English: the word "sodomy", meaning acts (stigmatized as "unnatural vice") such as homosexuality and anal sex and the word "sodomite", meaning one who practices such acts.

In the Middle Ages, the terms "sodomite" and "buggery" were defined as homosexual practices, and the arguably gay Richard I of England was ordered by a priest to keep in mind "the sin of Sodom".

Middle Ages
pl.n.
The period in European history between antiquity and the Renaissance, often dated from A.D. 476 to 1453

First century Christian and Jewish opinions

The Epistle of Jude in the New Testament echoes the Genesis narrative and recalls mainly the sexually immoral aspects of Sodom's sins: &#8220;&#8230;just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire&#8221; (v. 7, English Standard Version). The phrase rendered &#8220;unnatural desire&#8221; is literally translated &#8220;strange flesh&#8221;, but it is not entirely clear what it refers to. The ESV translators supply one plausible paraphrase in making the phrase refer to the illicit sexual activity of the Genesis account (cf. the language of the epistle to the Romans 1:21-32), but another theory is that it is just a reference to the &#8220;strange flesh&#8221; of the intended rape victims, who were angels, not men.
The Jewish historian Josephus used the term &#8220;Sodomites&#8221; summarizing the Genesis narrative: &#8220;About this time the Sodomites grew proud, on account of their riches and great wealth; they became unjust towards men, and impious towards God, in so much that they did not call to mind the advantages they received from him: they hated strangers, and abused themselves with Sodomitical practices&#8221; (Antiquities 1.11.1 [2] &#8212; circa A.D. 96). The final element of his assessment goes beyond the Biblical data, even in the New Testament. Nonetheless, this meaning is the primary one used today.

http://www.answers.com/topic/sodomy


Did you see how it said "abused themselves w/sodomitical practices"? The practices they did went WAY beyond some sex practice, it was clearly rape.
 
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HisKid1973

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Did you see how it said "abused themselves w/sodomitical practices"? The practices they did went WAY beyond some sex practice, it was clearly rape.

And I guess none were loving or being monogamous, correct? We'll Dave, I have to admit, you do keep this forum active..
 
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HisKid1973

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I said it wasn't recognized in a loving MONOGAMOUS relationship. Why don't you ask, before accusing me of contradicting myself??? :confused:

Hey if your going to hang with this guy you need to follow all his advice correct..Or do you cherry pick from him?

So what do expect of homosexuals in the church? Campolo agrees with Justin and says that they must be called to celibacy. But not just call them to it, but for the church to become their family.
 
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