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Sodom & Gomorrah

LibertyChic

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I've noticed recently that some members have been stating that Sodom & Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexual and other "sinful" sex acts, but because of greed and selfishness.

However, the bible states that when the angels visited Lot, men surrounded his home, banged on the door and demanded he send the men out so they could have sex with them.

[BIBLE]Genesis 19:5[/BIBLE]

Am I missing something?
 

z3ro

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LibertyChic said:
Which they refused because they preferred the men.

And Lot was righteous, according to god. That's right, a righteous man is one who offers his daughters up to the crowd who wants to rape them(oh, and they weren't virgins, Lot lied about that).
 
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ChristianCenturion

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LibertyChic said:
I've noticed recently that some members have been stating that Sodom & Gomorrah were not destroyed because of homosexual and other "sinful" sex acts, but because of greed and selfishness.

However, the bible states that when the angels visited Lot, men surrounded his home, banged on the door and demanded he send the men out so they could have sex with them.

Verse not found.

Am I missing something?

It doesn't have to be 'one sin' as some attempt to claim.
This has been discussed recently and the claims that sexual immorality and yes a declaration of orientation were not involved is not what is reflected in plain language.
 
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LibertyChic

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ChristianCenturion said:
It doesn't have to be 'one sin' as some attempt to claim.
This has been discussed recently and the claims that sexual immorality and yes a declaration of orientation were not involved is not what is reflected in plain language.

It's not the "one sin" I'm referring to, but claims by some Christians and even Jewish members (or at least, insinuations) that Sodom/Gomorrah were destroy NOT because of sexual sins, but other sins. I'm just trying to get some clarification without hijacking any other threads. :)
 
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LibertyChic

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z3ro said:
And Lot was righteous, according to god. That's right, a righteous man is one who offers his daughters up to the crowd who wants to rape them(oh, and they weren't virgins, Lot lied about that).

Yes, I realize the ramifications of this, but that is a different topic altogether. :)
 
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LibertyChic

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Phred said:
So it's ok to offer your virgin daughters to a mob as long as they refuse?



.


Please re-read the OP. I am not attempting to discuss the morality of Lot, but why some people are claiming/insinuating that sexual sins were not part of the reason God destroyed the cities.
 
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Phred

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LibertyChic said:
Please re-read the OP. I am not attempting to discuss the morality of Lot, but why some people are claiming/insinuating that sexual sins were not part of the reason God destroyed the cities.
Lot's morality is directly relevant to the OP. In that time a man who offered shelter to another... well, that was a solemn oath. Sometimes, in the desert, shelter is the difference between life and death. Lot had given the men shelter. Thus, they were under his protection. He did what any man of that time would do. He offered up his daughters, a commodity, to the men outside the house in order to protect those inside.

What this shows is the honor of a man, not the sexual immorality of the city. Harming men under the protection of another's roof is the sin, not homosexuality, not the offering of virgins to a mob. All of which goes to show that in this day and age this story is irrelevant read literally.

So yes, you're missing something.

.
 
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LibertyChic

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Phred said:
Lot's morality is directly relevant to the OP. In that time a man who offered shelter to another... well, that was a solemn oath. Sometimes, in the desert, shelter is the difference between life and death. Lot had given the men shelter. Thus, they were under his protection. He did what any man of that time would do. He offered up his daughters, a commodity, to the men outside the house in order to protect those inside.

What this shows is the honor of a man, not the sexual immorality of the city. Harming men under the protection of another's roof is the sin, not homosexuality, not the offering of virgins to a mob. All of which goes to show that in this day and age this story is irrelevant read literally.

So yes, you're missing something.



.


Ahhh....hmmm. Interesting.

Seebs? Jewish friends? Would you agree with this assessment?
 
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ChristianCenturion

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LibertyChic said:
Ahhh....hmmm. Interesting.

Seebs? Jewish friends? Would you agree with this assessment?

I don't know about them, but it seems that Christian scripture disagrees with the non-believers accusations against Lot:

2 Peter 2
1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.


4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority.

Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—a beast without speech—who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness. 17These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."
 
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LibertyChic

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ChristianCenturion said:
I don't know about them, but it seems that Christian scripture disagrees with the non-believers accusations against Lot:
While I will let seebs and others like him speak for themselves regarding their thoughts on the matter, I would hardly call seebs a non-believer.

And since Phred was so kind as to point out to me that Lot's morality most likely does play a role in the OP, I have to ask you, is offering his virgin daughters to the mob a righteous act? (It's a simple yes or no question.....)
 
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ChristianCenturion

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LibertyChic said:
While I will let seebs and others like him speak for themselves regarding their thoughts on the matter, I would hardly call seebs a non-believer.
I don't recall where I called seebs a non-believer. To my knowledge and by reason of the posting, Phred is an admitted non-believer.
And since Phred was so kind as to point out to me that Lot's morality most likely does play a role in the OP, I have to ask you, is offering his virgin daughters to the mob a righteous act? (It's a simple yes or no question.....)

It is always suspect for me when someone forces the answer into the 'yes or no' demand. It makes one concerned of the loaded question or complex questioning. ;)

Are you aware that this is not the only incident in scripture where a group of men attempted to force themselves on strangers and demanding to have same sex?
 
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Phred

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ChristianCenturion said:
I don't know about them, but it seems that Christian scripture disagrees with the non-believers accusations against Lot:
I said Lot was an honorable man, I made no accusations against him. I simply put into question his actions as a way to show that what was honor then isn't necessarily honor today.


You know, if you bother to read all the words in a thread... nevermind.

.
 
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Phred

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ChristianCenturion said:
It is always suspect for me when someone forces the answer into the 'yes or no' demand. It makes one concerned of the loaded question or complex questioning.
Why not just take a chance and actually answer a direct question put to you?
 
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ChristianCenturion

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Phred said:
I said Lot was an honorable man, I made no accusations against him. I simply put into question his actions as a way to show that what was honor then isn't necessarily honor today.


You know, if you bother to read all the words in a thread... nevermind.

I know many people that 'put into question' or imply things. It doesn't make it right, the intent is what God looks at. If you are telling me that your statement was innocently asking a question, then I gladly withdraw my interpretation. I have no problem with admitting error or being corrected in what I 'thought I saw'.
 
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ChristianCenturion

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FadingWhispers3 said:
I understand the implications of hospitality, but that one incident (wanting to harm the visitors) cannot be the only sin because God had decided to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah even before the angels came to Lot.

Really? Or was it icing on the cake?:

Genesis 18:20-21
20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Now I temper this with the fact that it could simply be how God was putting it to Abraham and this alone isn't firm enough to draw an exact conclusion.
 
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Phred

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ChristianCenturion said:
I know many people that 'put into question' or imply things. It doesn't make it right, the intent is what God looks at. If you are telling me that your statement was innocently asking a question, then I gladly withdraw my interpretation. I have no problem with admitting error or being corrected in what I 'thought I saw'.
All I can say is, read the thread. If you still don't get it, I can't help you.
 
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