Socialization of our Financial Markets

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geocajun

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With the recent government takeovers of Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, and now AIG, how does everyone here feel about the socialization of our financial market? Is anyone surprised by it?

We aren't socializing all of it course, with the Lehman Brothers just declaring bankruptcy and the saving of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America.
Also earlier this year with the Bear Sterns fallout where our government helped JPMorgan buy up their loss.

My stocks have plummeted - the DOW is sliding downward hard and fast. I've put everything in my 401k into cash funds because at ~3% its the most reliable investment I can find right now (except for oil and gold markets that I don't' understand).

Yet some continue to suggest that we should privatize social security because it would work better, and even more absurdly, they are stating our economy is still fundamentally strong.

Many people working for these banks that are out of business didn't invest in their 401k for retirement but rather purchased their bank stock at reduced rates for retirement savings, and this year those stocks fell ~80%, nobody, not even the executives of the banks saw that coming. The only people walking away from this crisis rich are the executives. There is no money "trickling down" for the little guy who lost his investments, retirement, and maybe his job.

Thoughts?
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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It is a coorellary (or maybe just a realistic outcome) of the trickle down economics that profit should be privatized and risk should be socialized.

This ensure that rich people stay rich and the trickle down effect can stay trickling.

I think it just welfare for the rich personally.

What we are seeing, I am sorry to tell you, is the nature and expected outcome of 30 years of what George Bush (Sr.) called Voodoo ecomonics, what Republicans call Reaganmonics and what most people overseas observing the American economy call insanity.

Greed IS good.


And this is what happens if you're not one of the 1 or 2% that profits by it.
 
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MikeK

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I was just last night thinking about that - the socializing of our financial markets...hot on the heels of the socializing of our transportation systems, and likely nearly immediatly preceeding the socialization of our healthcare system. Interesting times.
 
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Cosmic Charlie

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I was just last night thinking about that - the socializing of our financial markets...hot on the heels of the socializing of our transportation systems, and likely nearly immediatly preceeding the socialization of our healthcare system. Interesting times.

Here's the difference my fine young libertariian friend:

Health care and transport are things that enchance and are used by the society at large.

Soicalizing the Financial markets simply enriches corporatation and abour 400 familes worldwide who are already muti-billionares.

Catch the difference ?

Common security and responsiblities vs. Massive transfer of wealth.
 
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InTheCloud

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I agree that we are seen a upside up transfer of wealth from the tax payer to the large corporations and the death of US capitalism.

I unlike Charlie I do not see as a result of just Voodoo economics.
Is the New Deal all over again, combined with the Ponzi schemes of the Big Society of the 60s and with Nixon/ Greenspan, Milton Friedman inspired, lest play God with the currency. That is were the voodoo part comes in.

The US kept the interest rates too low for too many time, while the US gov kept printing money. That created a culture of consumption and waste, both in the US goverment (bread and guns, welfare and warfare), and in the people, the instant gratification culture that started in the late 60s, sex drugs and rock and roll, the me generation of the 70s that gave us inappropriate content, one nights stands and abortion on demand, the home mortages plus car lease plus 6 credit cards in the 80s and 90s.
I believe that both the US gov, the large business and the individial American believed that the river will flow upstream forever.
Yes some people did forestall problems.
Bush Sr called that Vodoo Economics, and broke his promises of no new taxes. Clinton ditched his ambitious health care plans and worked with the Republican Congress to balance the budget.
That was all thrown out during the Bush years. The blame does fall on the Reeps becasue they controlled both the Presidency and Congress most of those years but the Dems never really challenged the spending or the low interest rates, the when after the results not after the causes. As Obama is doing now. And Pelosi could have being as Gingrinch. Willing to shut down the goverment in other to cut the budget, she did not.
 
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MikeK

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Here's the difference my fine young libertariian friend:

Health care and transport are things that enchance and are used by the society at large.

Soicalizing the Financial markets simply enriches corporatation and abour 400 familes worldwide who are already muti-billionares.

Catch the difference ?

Common security and responsiblities vs. Massive transfer of wealth.

What I see are two opposing schools of political thought that have resulted in a society where there is no risk in being very poor or very rich. The poor are given free health care, food and shelter (which I'm not complaining about), and the rich are allowed to make poor financiakl decisions without any real personal risk at all. The working guy pays for the mistakes of the rich and poor alike.
 
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InTheCloud

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In my opinion the scandal is that the politicians predicably have gone towards corporate welfare, encouraging more corporate irresposability. And I yet have to see Macca or Obama saying they oppose the bailout.

How the monetary policy caused the crisis?
Well, when you put to many money in the economy you cause inflation, so people knowing that their money is not worth saving will start spending it more and stop saving, If fact they might become indebted. And they will put the money in the places that hold the value longer. Real state. And since the interest rates are artificialy low, people will get mortages with ease. So everybody and his cat and dog goes into the real state market. The politicians are pleased. Everybody is a home owner and that is good for society, not one wants to bust the bubble. So the bubble goes on and on. Everybody whats the river to keep going upstream. No one saves for the times were the thin cows will come.
But the bubble will bursts sooner or latter.
 
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InTheCloud

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opposing schools of political thought that have resulted in a society where there is no risk in being very poor or very rich. The poor are given free health care, food and shelter (which I'm not complaining about), and the rich are allowed to make poor financiakl decisions without any real personal risk at all.

They are not as opposed as they think they are, they both originated in XIX Bismarkian Prussia.

They both wash away personal responsabilty to the expansion of the State.

The poor can afford to make poor decisions with their lives because the nanny state will be there for them.
The rich can afford to make poor decisions with their money because the nanny state will be there for them.
The state bureaucracy, taking wealth of the salaried people thought taxes or inflation, is the real winner. And politics become more and more involved in the lives of common people destroying any sense of community.
 
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geocajun

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In my opinion the scandal is that the politicians predicably have gone towards corporate welfare, encouraging more corporate irresposability. And I yet have to see Macca or Obama saying they oppose the bailout.

I think just flat out opposing bailouts is sort of like opposing support for Israel. Nobody likes being pregnant with a baby conceived through rape, but we have a burden to bear.
 
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stephenc

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I wish I understood more about economics, but I understood Charlie's line about "welfare for the rich" clearly enough. With the National Bank ready to bail 'em out, it does strike me that the financial markets have become a non-productive playpit, and it is productive people; oilworkers, farmers, etc, etc who end up being shafted with the higher interest rates and paying taxes to the government that eventually has to bail out the banks.
 
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MikeK

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They are not as opposed as they think they are, they both originated in XIX Bismarkian Prussia.

They both wash away personal responsabilty to the expansion of the State.

The poor can afford to make poor decisions with their lives because the nanny state will be there for them.
The rich can afford to make poor decisions with their money because the nanny state will be there for them.
The state bureaucracy, taking wealth of the salaried people thought taxes or inflation, is the real winner. And politics become more and more involved in the lives of common people destroying any sense of community.
Yup.
 
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InTheCloud

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Stephenis right, the problem with the financial markets ist that no ones really understand that is going on. Is chaos theory in action.

See this:

Bad Accounting Rules
Helped Sink AIG

By ZACHARY KARABELL



The decision by the Federal Reserve to loan insurance giant AIG $85 billion in return for as much as 80% ownership of the company is by any measure dramatic. The takeover early last week of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac represented the culmination of years of intermingling of public and private interests. But the AIG move is de facto a government nationalization of an ailing private company, which, if not unprecedented, has rarely happened in the United States. Even if the intervention was imperative, its scope is startling.
ED-AI246_karabe_D_20080917181828.jpg
Corbis


The crisis on Wall Street has, of course, become a political football. Cries of "moral hazard" and "socialism" on one side are drowned out by charges that the current mess is the result of deregulation, and too cozy a relationship between "Wall Street fat cats" and the current administration in Washington. If only reality were that simple. The blame game will continue, but it won't do much to fix what's broken.
Let's get a few canards out of the way: First, yes, stupidity and cupidity and complacency and hubris are involved, and yes, there is gambling in Casablanca. Second, the idea that there is this thing called "the free market" that governments tame or muck up with regulation is a fiction. Governments create the legal conditions for markets; markets shape what governments can do or are willing to do. Regulation versus free-market is a false dichotomy. Maybe in some theoretical universe, if we could start with a blank slate and construct society anew, it wouldn't be. But we exist in a web of markets and regulations, and the challenge is to respond to problems in such a way so that we decrease the odds of future crises.
And that is where AIG becomes instructive. Even good regulations can't prevent all future crises, especially ones that are the result of new technologies and changes that result from them. The capital flows, derivatives contracts and nearly frictionless interlinking of global markets today are the direct result of the information technologies of the 1990s. The implications weren't known until very recently, so it would have been nearly impossible for regulations to have prevented what is happening. But if good regulation can't prevent crises, bad regulations can cause them.
The current meltdown isn't the result of too much regulation or too little. The root cause is bad regulation.
Call it the revenge of Enron. The collapse of Enron in 2002 triggered a wave of regulations, most notably Sarbanes-Oxley. Less noticed but ultimately more consequential for today were accounting rules that forced financial service companies to change the way they report the value of their assets (or liabilities). Enron valued future contracts in such a way as to vastly inflate its reported profits. In response, accounting standards were shifted by the Financial Accounting Standards Board and validated by the SEC. The new standards force companies to value or "mark" their assets according to a different set of standards and levels.
The rules are complicated and arcane; the result isn't. Beginning last year, financial companies exposed to the mortgage market began to mark down their assets, quickly and steeply. That created a chain reaction, as losses that were reported on balance sheets led to declining stock prices and lower credit ratings, forcing these companies to put aside ever larger reserves (also dictated by banking regulations) to cover those losses.
In the case of AIG, the issues are even more arcane. In February, as its balance sheet continued to sharply decline, the company issued a statement saying that it "believes that its mark-to-market unrealized losses on the super senior credit default swap portfolio . . . are not indicative of the losses it may realize over time." Unless one is steeped in these issues, that statement is completely incomprehensible. Yet the inside baseball of accounting rules, regulation and markets adds up to the very comprehensible $85 billion of taxpayer money.
What AIG was saying then, and what others from Lehman to Bear Stearns to the world at large have been saying since, is that the losses showing up aren't "real." Yes, the layer upon layer of derivatives built on the foundation of mortgages is mind-boggling. One reason that AIG had floated beneath the radar screen of the business media (relative to Wall Street investment firms) is that its business model is so complex and opaque that it is impossible to describe simply. It was briefly in the news in 2005, after it was accused of improper accounting by the SEC and the New York attorney general. Then it faded from view, until now.
Among its many products, AIG offered insurance on derivatives built on other derivatives built on mortgages. It priced those according to computer models that no one person could have generated, not even the quantitative magicians who programmed them. And when default rates and home prices moved in ways that no model had predicted, the whole pricing structure was thrown out of whack.
The value of the underlying assets -- homes and mortgages -- declined, sometimes 10%, sometimes 20%, rarely more. That is a hit to the system, but on its own should never have led to the implosion of Wall Street. What has leveled Wall Street is that the value of the derivatives has declined to zero in some cases, at least according to what these companies are reporting.
There's something wrong with that picture: Down 20% doesn't equal down 100%. In a paralyzed environment, where few are buying and everyone is selling, a market price could well be near zero. But that is hardly the "real" price. If someone had to sell a home in Galveston, Texas, last week before Hurricane Ike, it might have sold for pennies on the dollar. Who would buy a home in the path of a hurricane? But only for those few days was that value "real."
The regulations were passed to prevent a repeat of Enron, but regulations are always a work of hindsight. Good regulatory regimes can mitigate future crises, and over the past hundred years, economic crises world-wide have become less disruptive. The panics of the late 1800s, the bank runs, the Great Depression in Europe and the United States, were all far more severe than what is unfolding today in terms of business failures and jobs, homes and savings lost.
But bad regulation is something to be feared, especially as industries become more complicated. Legislators and agencies would be wary of passing rules regulating how a semiconductor chip is programmed; they would recognize that while the outcomes those chips produce might be simple, the way they produce them is not. Yet financial service regulations sometimes act as if we still live in a time when deposits consisted of sacks of money in a vault.
A few years from now, there will be a magazine cover with someone we've never heard of who bought all of those mortgages and derivatives for next to nothing on the correct assumption that they were indeed worth quite a bit. In the interim, there will almost certainly be a wave of regulations designed to prevent the flood that has already occurred, some of which are likely to trigger another crisis down the line. Until we can have a more rational, measured public discussion about what government and regulations can and should do vis-à-vis financial markets, we are unlikely to break the cycle.
There is one final irony: AIG was founded in Shanghai in 1919, when China was emerging from millennia of imperial rule. Over the next century, China turned away from capitalism. Almost 90 years later, AIG is now being taken over by the U.S. government just as the Chinese government is moving as quickly as possible to divest itself of control of major companies. One of those countries is growing fast; one isn't. Perhaps that is a coincidence; perhaps not.

Mr. Karabell is president of River Twice Research. His "Chimerica: How the United States and China Became One," will be published next year by Simon & Schuster.
 
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Globalnomad

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I think just flat out opposing bailouts is sort of like opposing support for Israel. Nobody likes being pregnant with a baby conceived through rape, but we have a burden to bear.

Geo, I just loved that remark. I wonder if you did it on purpose? In one smooth, light-sounding sentence, you managed to make three completely unrelated, complex and controversial political statements:

- Economic bailouts are sometimes necessary and should not be opposed on principle
- US support for Israel is distasteful but unavoidable
- Abortion is unacceptable even in cases of rape.
 
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geocajun

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Geo, I just loved that remark. I wonder if you did it on purpose? In one smooth, light-sounding sentence, you managed to make three completely unrelated, complex and controversial political statements:

- Economic bailouts are sometimes necessary and should not be opposed on principle
- US support for Israel is distasteful but unavoidable
- Abortion is unacceptable even in cases of rape.
Thanks :)

I knew it was provocative, but it would make the point!
 
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Can't help but to think of our Lady, at Fatima.. "The errors of Russia will spread throughout the world" and everyday I see our country so easily duped by every wind of new and novel ideaology that blows our way..

Why force America to anything if we can be slowly made to want it, or at least accept it?
 
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InTheCloud

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McCain was 4 square against the bail out in the moring and then for it when the Fed actaully did the bailout.

Shame on him on the flip flop. The first time he was right.

And Obama hung this on Bush and McCain's economic polices by noon.

But he actually said something on the Bailout? It seems that Obama was more like, look "Im not them, that will not happened under me The Obamasiah". But has he showed any hint to know what is really going on other that blame the Reeps. I think the problem was cooking long before. Maybe since the 70s. And also some things as in the article I just posted shows are the outcome of the brave new world of internet financing. I doubt that neither Bush or Obama could stop that.
Looking back the only person in Congress making the right questions was not McCain, not Obama, not Biden. It was Ron Paul.
 
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Veritas

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With the recent government takeovers of Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, and now AIG, how does everyone here feel about the socialization of our financial market? Is anyone surprised by it?

We aren't socializing all of it course, with the Lehman Brothers just declaring bankruptcy and the saving of Merrill Lynch by Bank of America.
Also earlier this year with the Bear Sterns fallout where our government helped JPMorgan buy up their loss.

My stocks have plummeted - the DOW is sliding downward hard and fast. I've put everything in my 401k into cash funds because at ~3% its the most reliable investment I can find right now (except for oil and gold markets that I don't' understand).

Yet some continue to suggest that we should privatize social security because it would work better, and even more absurdly, they are stating our economy is still fundamentally strong.

Many people working for these banks that are out of business didn't invest in their 401k for retirement but rather purchased their bank stock at reduced rates for retirement savings, and this year those stocks fell ~80%, nobody, not even the executives of the banks saw that coming. The only people walking away from this crisis rich are the executives. There is no money "trickling down" for the little guy who lost his investments, retirement, and maybe his job.

Thoughts?

Given your views and statements here, I think you need to pack up and move to Venezuela, China, etc. where you'd feel more comfortable with communism. It's shocking that some people are actually blaming this financial crisis on capitalism. Nothing could be further from the truth. By the way, good for you for moving your 401 (k) money into cash. What are you going to do? Wait until the markets recover and go back up? That's a great strategy for a person your age. This way you lock in your losses and then can later buy in at higher prices. :thumbsup::doh:
 
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geocajun

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Given your views and statements here, I think you need to pack up and move to Venezuela, China, etc. where you'd feel more comfortable with communism. It's shocking that some people are actually blaming this financial crisis on capitalism. Nothing could be further from the truth. By the way, good for you for moving your 401 (k) money into cash. What are you going to do? Wait until the markets recover and go back up? That's a great strategy for a person your age. This way you lock in your losses and then can later buy in at higher prices. :thumbsup::doh:
uhhh can you show me where I said anything about capitalism being bad? did you even read my post? I just stated facts and asked for thoughts. As for you giving me financial advice - don't bother. I wouldn't take advice from you on what to do with my money. I pay qualified people for that.
 
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