Socialism vs. Capitalism

[TheReasoner]

One of the posters posted some things about the US that are simply not true - it shows that people from other countries do not really know the US. It said that the US was the most selfish country - We give to other countries until we ourselves are about to go bankrupt (well - not withstanding all the waste in our government) - we are always one of the first at any disaster, individual churches give and do ministry work all over the world. We give billions to all the countries that hate us, which I don't understand. But I would like to know what they base these opinions on.

That is nonsense, SharonL. You tell yourselves you're that generous, yes. But look at the numbers:

0.7% is what US and the rest of the west has promised. See how far below you are? Donating too much? Good grief, Sharon! Of what little measly part of your wealth you do give, about 90% is to yourselves!

Of course there is private donation, but the picture is not very different there, I mean, in 2005 the US gave about 16 cents a day per person in total aid. About 5 of those are from private aid. In comparison there are countries wherein both the private sector and the public sector give about a dollar per capita per day. How can you you - being from a country which is incredibly stingy - speak of how you're too zealous in your desire to aid others?

This is one major reason why the US is so disliked elsewhere. You talk about how charitable you are, yet if you check the numbers you find that to be quite simply untrue. Do you give much money? Sure. Just not much per person and not much as a portion of what you have. And if you start looking at how said money is spent things get really ugly. Giving to yourselves and calling it charity?

You see, it is very hard to like someone who is one thing but loudly and proudly proclaims to be the opposite. There are many words describing such people, and many of those would be stopped by the filters on this site.

There are many things to be proud of in the states. There are. But the charitability which conservatives such as yourself say you have... Well, for various reasons you should stop saying that.
First off, when compared to others you're not that charitable.
Secondly, no-one likes people who boast. Especially if the boaster claims to be number one but is actually near or at the bottom of the list. One thing is to claim to be a nobel laureate if you ARE a nobel laureate. It's totally different to claim to be one and not even having an education.
Third, boasting and pride are both sins according to the bible. So that alone should put a stop to those claims.
Fourth, the bible also instructs us to not carry untrue testimonials. Yet when you boast about your charity - and are demonstrably wrong - that's exactly what you're doing.

So, bottom line: Why do you have to make up stuff to be proud about? And: why do you boast at all, especially given the aforementioned pointers?

 

[SharonL]

Just a few sources....

What kind of person would call giving such as this as stingy and selfish.....
This is just for the year 2010 only.
Israel $3billion 175million
Egypt $1billion 550 million
Africa $648billion
South and Central Asia $3billion 268 million
Western Hemisphere $448 million
Europe & Eur-asia $631 million
Near East $1billion 677million

Speaking for myself - taken a family of 5 in for 5 years - provided for them until they could provide for themselves, volunteer at hospital, give in neighborhood drives, give to disater funds on a monthly basis, etc and etc - don't want to blow my horn, but we do our share of giveing.

Source of info: U.S. Foreign Aid Summary

 

[TheReasoner]

Just a few sources....

What kind of person would call giving such as this as stingy and selfish.....
This is just for the year 2010 only.
Israel $3billion 175million
Egypt $1billion 550 million
Africa $648billion
South and Central Asia $3billion 268 million
Western Hemisphere $448 million
Europe & Eur-asia $631 million
Near East $1billion 677million

Speaking for myself - taken a family of 5 in for 5 years - provided for them until they could provide for themselves, volunteer at hospital, give in neighborhood drives, give to disater funds on a monthly basis, etc and etc - don't want to blow my horn, but we do our share of giveing.

Source of info: U.S. Foreign Aid Summary

First, that is wonderful that you have taken those people in Sharon. But you're one person, and we're dealing with an entire nation. While your contribution is certainly beyond awesome it is only one contribution. And the US is huge. If the US as a whole were as giving as you are it would show. But instead the US is revealed as incredibly stingy. Now, I am not saying that the US does not give large amounts of money. It does. But I am saying what the numbers show, that as a portion of what the US has it does not give much at all. Much less than promised and much less than people you americonservatives like to boast about how much you are better than.

It is true that the US gives large sums, but that does not make the US generous. You need to look at where the money goes (It primarily goes to US interests abroad) and how much that money represents of what the US has
How much of what you have you give would decide whether you're generous or not. And both as a portion of what the US has and in terms of amount per person the USA is one of the most stingy countries in the west.

Compare, if Bill Gates gives one million dollars and a kid gives his entire allowance, who is the most generous? Gates gives most, but the kid is far more generous as he will feel his donation. Gates will not.

If nine hundred million of Gates' billion went to Microsoft, can Gates then be said to have given one billion or one million?

That's what the US is doing. It is giving a very very small amount of what it has. This small amount goes to American companies, ref. the hypothetical Gates-Microsoft thing. So... Can the US be said to be charitable?

• The amount given publicly per person says no.
• The amount given publicly as a percent of what the US has says no.
• The amount given privately - on the same conditions as publicly - says no.
• Where the money ends up says absolutely not.

You (singular) say you're (plural) giving too much, making your (plural) own economy suffer from your donations. So... How come the US, which gives about 0.1-0.2% depending on the year has had a serious financial crisis when countries giving - these days - over 1% of their wealth have avoided said crisis. Despite having a lower GDP than the US?


You say the US is generous. The numbers say the US is stingy. Even if the country gives a large amount, it is far less of what the country has than other countries give. Besides, most of those countries, the Scandinavian ones for example, tend to say of themselves that they are too stingy. And it is often in the political debate how we who have money need to use more of that to help others. How can they say that, when they give 8, some years over 10-12 times as large a portion of their wealth to others than you do? And how can you americonservatives say you're more giving than them?

And you know what? I agree with the Scandinavian self-perception concerning this. Even though the Scandinavians by and large give about a dollar every day both publicly and privately to others in need - whereas you tend to give a few meager cents - I would say that the Scandinavians are selfish, materialistic and greedy. Just not as bad as you americans are. Worst thing though, is when you boast about how awesome you are when you put money in your own pockets and avoid your promises while patting yourselves on the back for being generous. How is that NOT distasteful? I do hope you can answer that question. I am yet to find an americonservative who can.

 

[SharonL]

Well I am through with this thread - no amount of figures given will change the opinions of people that hate the US, if we withdrew all we give, it would certainly be felt. Think what you want - but I don't see the borders of all the other countries being overrun with people trying to get in and I don't see many wanting to get out - so something is good about the US.

 

[TheReasoner]

Well I am through with this thread - no amount of figures given will change the opinions of people that hate the US, if we withdrew all we give, it would certainly be felt. Think what you want - but I don't see the borders of all the other countries being overrun with people trying to get in and I don't see many wanting to get out - so something is good about the US.

Sharon, we accept more immigrants per person here than the US gets. Even if you sum up both legal and illegal immigration. And here, a lot of Christians tend to think we need to let more in. Not less.

Why are you so boastful without checking your facts first? Doesn't the bible say it is bad to bear false witness?


Something is good about the US. But why do you bring forth the areas where the US is really bad and claim it is really good at those things?

 

[gluadys]

Just a few sources....

What kind of person would call giving such as this as stingy and selfish.....
This is just for the year 2010 only.
Israel $3billion 175million
Egypt $1billion 550 million
Africa $648billion
South and Central Asia $3billion 268 million
Western Hemisphere $448 million
Europe & Eur-asia $631 million
Near East $1billion 677million

Jesus would.

Remember how impressed the disciples were at the large sums being deposited in the Temple treasury by wealthy benefactors.

And how Jesus directed their attention to the widow whose two small coins represented her whole living.

The others gave much, but it was still a piddling amount of their abundance.


Nationally, the US is in the same situation; it gives many dollars, but still only the tiniest smidgeon of its abundance. Other, less wealthy countries give much more by comparison. And often with many fewer strings attached.

Speaking for myself - taken a family of 5 in for 5 years - provided for them until they could provide for themselves, volunteer at hospital, give in neighborhood drives, give to disater funds on a monthly basis, etc and etc - don't want to blow my horn, but we do our share of giveing.

Source of info: U.S. Foreign Aid Summary

I too commend your personal charity.

But socialism is not about charity. There is plenty of need for charity no matter what style of government there is. Socialism is about defending the rights of all, especially the poor, to have what they need for a dignified life.

Foreign aid is a poor stop-gap for fair trading rules, for example. It doesn't really make much sense to destroy a country's main cash crop by dumping subsidized American exports on their market and then handing them a sop of inadequate foreign aid. (examples: destruction of rice production in Ghana, corn production in Mexico and cotton production in most of West Africa through the importation of American rice, corn and cotton. The latter could be sold below cost of production because Americans were being taxed to subsidize them. Ironically, at the same time, African countries were being denied credit from the US-dominated IMF unless they dispensed with local subsidies.)


What would be fair? Certainly not this scenario. Mexican and African farmers used to be able to support themselves and their families and contribute to their communities. Now they have been made beggars dependent on charity and that charity is stingy and given begrudgingly.

Time to replace such suspect charity with real justice.

 

[SharonL]

One last post from me - since you are into figures - how about going across the nations and count the white crosses that our military gave in order to bring freedom to others. Nothing stingy about those who gave all.

 

[TheReasoner]

One last post from me - since you are into figures - how about going across the nations and count the white crosses that our military gave in order to bring freedom to others. Nothing stingy about those who gave all.

And what about how many have died from other military forces, Sharon? And how about how many of those from the US died for other purposes? Dark ones. You hear about the freedom you supposedly bring to others. Sometimes you do. Like when you fought Hitler. Then, side by side with the Soviets, brits and others the US fought for good. But other times...

Consider the US support to guerrilla forces in South America like the contras in Nicaragua, or to despots like Augusto Pinochet, the Shah of Iran or the military Juntas in Brazil and numerous other countries?

You bring forth your forces and claim you bring freedom to others. How many millions have lost their homes and lost their freedom because of the US? Iran went into a totalitarian regime, guided by the US. The same is true for Nicaragua, Brazil, Haiti and many other countries.

Sharon, the US has done much good, yes. But also much evil. It is no saint. Do you think we should ignore the bad because there's some good in between sometimes? I don't.


Also, is it not a little ironic that a Christian should glorify a profession whose sole goal is to kill? I mean, I'm a veteran. I was trained to kill to protect. And I know the necessity sometimes is real. But it is still an evil thing. And the US forces go abroad agressively. They don't only defend the US. Nor do they always fight for freedom or justice.

 

[dogs4thewin]

capitalist if you need help I will help you BUT I am NOT going to allow you to have the same thing I have and not work for it.

 

[Johnnz]

capitalist if you need help I will help you BUT I am NOT going to allow you to have the same thing I have and not work for it.

Luke 6:29 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
NIV

Maybe Jesus thinks a bit differently?

John
NZ

 

[Johnnz]

Sharon,

We all have a loyalty to our nation. But that loyalty must not prevent us from seeing some things that are less than ideal. All societies are fallen. The prophets regularly went against popular thinking and standards that did not conform to God's standards.

As a loyal citizen and fan of my Kiwi heritage I don't always agree with aspects of American thinking and policies. But I have issues with my own culture too. We all need to wrestle with issues where society and biblical values conflict. And that must mean being open to challenge and sometimes some serious rethinking.

John
NZ

 

[Christ is Love]

The problem with Socialism/Communism is that it is fundamentally antagonistic to Christianity. Here's a quote from Vladimir Lenin:

"But a slave who has become conscious of his slavery and has risen to struggle for his emancipation has already half ceased to be a slave. The modern class-conscious worker, reared by large-scale factory industry and enlightened by urban life, contemptuously casts aside religious prejudices, leaves heaven to the priests and bourgeois bigots, and tries to win a better life for himself here on earth. The proletariat of today takes the side of socialism, which enlists science in the battle against the fog of religion, and frees the workers from their belief in life after death by welding them together to fight in the present for a better life on earth."

Socialism sees religion as false and, in fact, the elimination of religion is one of the objectives of Socialism.

This is because socialism requires total control of a population. Truly socialist countries rely on fear and oppression to keep people in line, and that requires the elimination of a belief in a higher power. The main duty of a socialist citizen is to the socialist community, and religion is a threat to that.

(I say "truly socialist" because countries that have national healthcare are not socialist because of it. For a country to be considered socialist, at least by my standards, they have to follow the central principles of socialism.)

 

[TheReasoner]

The problem with Socialism/Communism is that it is fundamentally antagonistic to Christianity. Here's a quote from Vladimir Lenin:

"But a slave who has become conscious of his slavery and has risen to struggle for his emancipation has already half ceased to be a slave. The modern class-conscious worker, reared by large-scale factory industry and enlightened by urban life, contemptuously casts aside religious prejudices, leaves heaven to the priests and bourgeois bigots, and tries to win a better life for himself here on earth. The proletariat of today takes the side of socialism, which enlists science in the battle against the fog of religion, and frees the workers from their belief in life after death by welding them together to fight in the present for a better life on earth."

Socialism sees religion as false and, in fact, the elimination of religion is one of the objectives of Socialism.

This is because socialism requires total control of a population. Truly socialist countries rely on fear and oppression to keep people in line, and that requires the elimination of a belief in a higher power. The main duty of a socialist citizen is to the socialist community, and religion is a threat to that.

(I say "truly socialist" because countries that have national healthcare are not socialist because of it. For a country to be considered socialist, at least by my standards, they have to follow the central principles of socialism.)

No, you're really really wrong on some issues here. Socialism is not that narrowly defined. And it is not intrinsically anti-religious. Leninism, Stalinism or Maoism do not define the full spectrum. There are plenty of christian socialists and christian social democrats out there. Martin Luther King and Desmond Tutu are but two. Of course they are not Leninists or Stalinists, but they are/were (R.I.P. MLK!) very far left compared to the average american.


Christian socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are numerous verses cited there that are in strong support of christian socialism. Not the artificial construct often used by people who mistakenly associate the totalitarian communists in russia, china and cambodia with any and all socialism - but another form of socialism. Read it. Maybe you'll broaden your horizon a little

 

[dogs4thewin]

Luke 6:29 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic.
NIV

Maybe Jesus thinks a bit differently?

John
NZ

He also wants us to plan and work. The proverbs say that something to the effect of a lazy man will not eat and Paul writes to a church telling the people to no longer steal but to work to support themselves and their family. He was a tent maker for a reason to provide for himself and those with him. If you fall on hard times I will help you, but you better not abuse that.

 

[Johnnz]

Ex 23:10-11 "For six years you are to sow your fields and harvest the crops, but during the seventh year let the land lie unplowed and unused. Then the poor among your people may get food from it, NIV

Lev 19:10 Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God. NIV

Lev 23:22 "'When you reap the harvest of your land, do not reap to the very edges of your field or gather the gleanings of your harvest. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the Lord your God.'" NIV

Lev 25:25 "'If one of your countrymen becomes poor and sells some of his property, his nearest relative is to come and redeem what his countryman has sold. NIV

Deut 15:7-11 If there is a poor man among your brothers in any of the towns of the land that the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward your poor brother.Rather be openhanded and freely lend him whatever he needs. Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: "The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near," so that you do not show ill will toward your needy brother and give him nothing. He may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. Give generously to him and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your brothers and toward the poor and needy in your land. NIV

Job 31:16-23
"If I have denied the desires of the poor or let the eyes of the widow grow weary,
if I have kept my bread to myself, not sharing it with the fatherless— but from my youth I reared him as would a father, and from my birth I guided the widow— if I have seen anyone perishing for lack of clothing, or a needy man without a garment, and his heart did not bless me for warming him with the fleece from my sheep, if I have raised my hand against the fatherless, knowing that I had influence in court, then let my arm fall from the shoulder, let it be broken off at the joint. For I dreaded destruction from God, and for fear of his splendor I could not do such things NIV

Prov 19:17-18 He who is kind to the poor lends to the Lord,
and he will reward him for what he has done. NIV

Prov 21:13 If a man shuts his ears to the cry of the poor,
he too will cry out and not be answered. NIV

Prov 29:7 The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern. NIV

Isa 10:1-2 Woe to those who make unjust laws, to those who issue oppressive decrees, to deprive the poor of their rights and withhold justice from the oppressed of my people, making widows their prey and robbing the fatherless. NIV

Here rulers are in view, those who make laws.

The poor are very much God's concern.

John
NZ

 

[TheReasoner]

He also wants us to plan and work. The proverbs say that something to the effect of a lazy man will not eat and Paul writes to a church telling the people to no longer steal but to work to support themselves and their family. He was a tent maker for a reason to provide for himself and those with him. If you fall on hard times I will help you, but you better not abuse that.

Yet ripping those verses out of context while ignoring Jesus' teachings and a plethora of verses concerning social justice in order to condemn a straw-man made to resemble something you don't even know what is can hardly be said to be... Good, can it?

I mean, if you KNOW what socialism IS and don't like it, fine. But I am yet to encounter a republican who says he or she knows what it is, and who is also even remotely right. Here's a hint: It's not anti-religious, it is not totalitarian, it is not about taking money from some people and handing it to others so they can avoid working - and it is not at all anywhere close to the Democratic party.

 

[gluadys]

He also wants us to plan and work. The proverbs say that something to the effect of a lazy man will not eat and Paul writes to a church telling the people to no longer steal but to work to support themselves and their family. He was a tent maker for a reason to provide for himself and those with him. If you fall on hard times I will help you, but you better not abuse that.

A lazy man, not a poor man.
A thief, not a poor man.

Socialism has no more tolerance for the lazy or the dishonest than any other form of government. But it does not willy-nilly confuse those defects with living in poverty.

Stop throwing up red herrings.

Who are you to personally judge if a person deserves a right to justice? Is it not God who commands justice for the poor? Does God demand that the poor meet any qualification other than need to be fed and clothed and provided with the necessities of life?

 

[dogs4thewin]

Yet ripping those verses out of context while ignoring Jesus' teachings and a plethora of verses concerning social justice in order to condemn a straw-man made to resemble something you don't even know what is can hardly be said to be... Good, can it?

I mean, if you KNOW what socialism IS and don't like it, fine. But I am yet to encounter a republican who says he or she knows what it is, and who is also even remotely right. Here's a hint: It's not anti-religious, it is not totalitarian, it is not about taking money from some people and handing it to others so they can avoid working - and it is not at all anywhere close to the Democratic party.

Well what is it?

 

[UnamSanctam]

Who are you to personally judge if a person deserves a right to justice? Is it not God who commands justice for the poor?

God commands justice, for everyone. Rich and poor alike.

 

[dogs4thewin]

People should be able to use their money, however they choose. If I have more money I should have the option of buying nicer things, should I choose not to OK but I should have that option.