Socialism vs. Capitalism

[Slave2Righteousness]

I believe it also talks about fair wages and fair trade. Presumably you believe in that anyway. If the Kingdom is turning on its head our definition of fairness, then perhaps we need to apply that to trade too!

Which we have....

If anything 'each according to his abillity, each according to his need' and 'the workers shall enjoy the fruits of their own labour' rather support that! Clearly you're not very well read up on the subject!

Each shall enjoy the fruits of his own labor sounds like everyone ought to carry their own load-just like other places in the Bible point out. Once again you're taking Acts out of context, these were people who banded together to help build the church and spread the gospel as missionaries and disciples-their primary goal was never, nor would it ever be to take care of the downtrodden.

Context, dear, context. The Kingdom of God as an entity is not being refered to here. Rather, Jesus is talking about why his followers aren't coming to rescue him, as you know. The reason is that his followers are in the world but not of it: they work tirelessly for fellow man but do not use the violence that their oppressors use. I hardly think you can use a passage explaining why bands of Jesus' followers didn't rescue him from crucifixion can be used against socialism!

I really don't even know how to respond to that other than you said clearly that Jesus's kingdom was of this world and I found scripture that directly contradicted you (which it is quite valid if your read it since if Jesus was hear to build an earthly kingdom, as you repeatedly state He was, I don't believe He would have directly contradicted you) But you know, you're an enlightened socialist saving the world from itself, so you probably do know more than Jesus.

Firstly, stop your patronising nonsense. Just because you can quote an out of context post without performing any sort of intelligent exegesis or use it effectively, rather setting it against something I said with a completely different argument in mind, doesn't mean you can act like a jerk. Thanks.

The point of Revelation is that the Kingdom is coming. We're charged with building it, to make disciples, to fight powers and principalities, to establish the kingdom. The entire point of the universe is that, at the cross, Heaven and Creation collided. 'Heaven' and 'The Kingdom' in the context we are using them are not interchangable - we both know we're talking about the Kingdom as given in St John and those passages which point to it.

I'll agree that the kingdom He speaks of is something He plans to bring to earth, but it is not something we are capable of creating ourself. Look at the sinful nature of man and read through Revelation and you'll see very clearly that it isn't men that build it, but Christ in a rather dramatic fashion. His kingdom is currently in heaven-that is where His citizenship is from, He came here on a visa, then went home.

I really think that we are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't think the Bible supports one system over another, but instead lays out a blueprint for a Godly life-one of those things being helping other people. Another one also being liberty.

 

[gluadys]

Well of course... but it was in no way advocating socialism. Jesus used parables to explain to people concepts that they would not have otherwise accepted by tying them to earthly things they could compare them to.

Like socialism?

That's like saying the parable about the virgins was telling us to make sure we have a full tank of gas before going to a wedding.. You've taken it completely out of context and distorted its meaning for your own political purposes.

In a modern updated version of the parable that could be exactly what it means.

The basic point is to be ready for the wedding. Whether with oil in the lamps or gas in the car is a detail.

 

[gluadys]

the point is Christ came to preach the kingdom of God, not build a kingdom of man.

It is both. The kingdom of God is the society of men ruled according to the will of God.

 

[gluadys]

First of all.. the workers did this thing called working, that is why they were paid, it wasn't charity.

I think half of your problems with socialism is that you mistakenly think it is a huge program of undeserved charity. You don't get your head around that it is not about charity at all. It is about justice. And justice is equally important to God.

Socialism is not about getting freebies without working. That is the sort of thing capitalism specializes in. Socialism is about the justice of having your work recognized and paid for. Capitalism is built on processes of stealing people's labour without paying for it.

Isaiah is describing the principle of socialism when he describes the new world in which:

They shall build houses and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat.
Isaiah 60:21-22

Have you any idea how many workers on pineapple plantations have never tasted a pineapple? Or how many Mexicans growing tomatoes for US and Canadian grocery stores have never tasted a tomato? Did you know that planeloads of fresh nutrititious vegetables left Ethiopia for Europe every day in the midst of the famine in the 1980s?

Meanwhile the Canadian tomato industry which used to employ hundreds of people has gone defunct because Mexican imports are cheaper. The important corn-growing industry of Mexico and the cotton-industry of West Africa are failing in the face of American imports. And its not even fair trade, for the American imports are heavily subsidized and sold well below the cost of production.

Capitalism creates millions of people who need charity because they have been deprived of justice. And capitalists are all too ready to offer charity as a poor substitute for justice.

God calls for both: justice always, charity as necessary.

I agree with whoever stated before that it was symbolic of those who accept salvation and work tirelessly their whole lives and those who accept it later on near death and that each is given what they were promised so why be upset by it.

As I see it this is a gnostic view of salvation which postpones it to a spiritual existence with no application to here and now. But the Lord taught us to pray: "Give us today our daily bread" and "Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

Gal 6:4-5 "But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another. For every man shall bear his own burden. "

2 Tim 3:7-12 "7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 8Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
9Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
10For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
11For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
12Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread."

Again this assuming that socialism is freebee charity rather than the justice of being paid for one's work.

Paul and his followers didn't just help out, they paid their debt IN FULL through labor they provided.

Jeesh...well it seems that Jesus was in the world when He said His kingdom was NOT in this world.....well is Fluffy or the Holy Bible correct..

Fluffy has it right here. Jesus said his kingdom is not of the world. He did not say it was not in the world. What is the point of the parables which tell us the kingdom is like yeast or salt if it is not in the world?

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

It is both. The kingdom of God is the society of men ruled according to the will of God.

Like socialism?[/QUOTE]
because goodness knows He didn't come down for anything more important that socialism-the salvation of the world..... Give me a break and start trying to read scriptures objectively instead of subjectively. Jesus preached about heaven, about problems people would have as Christians, and about the Word of God-not some sort of idealist economic system that wouldn't come around for almost 2 thousand years. Saying that the Bible teaches socialism is not only a completely biased and unreasonable assessment, but I'd compare to Mormons saying that the true teachings of Christianity were lost after the apostles died. Both concepts are completely counterintuitive, unfounded, and unsupported. It is a valid parallel, just replace Joesph Smith with Engel or Marx and that is exactly what you are suggesting. You can't lay out that socialism is supported by the Bible because it isn't, and it certainly isn't Bible-based in philosophy or application. You can't even make a valid historical argument that it raises the standard of living or is stable for long periods of time.

I'll have to disagree due to direct scriptures that conflict to your statement that the kingdom of God is on earth or that it is of men. I've already been forced into sounding like a broken record because the socialists in this forum keep regurgitating the same arguments over over regardless of if they are Biblical or defy any sort of logic.

My solution is simple, Canada can remain socialist and the USA can remain the bastardized capitalist system it is. You'll never make a real argument that the Bible supports socialism because it doesn't support any one form of government over another. The only person who would read it and suggest it supports socialism is guess what-a socialist because they are reading it with an inherent bias.

God bless!

 

[gluadys]

Which we have....

We have? Where?

Where women are not allowed to own land?
Where child care workers are paid minimum wage while hockey players get millions per annum?
And thousands of other women are made dependent on welfare when they could be working, because there isn't sufficient child-care to go around.
Where subsidized corn grown on US farms is displacing millions of Mexican peasants from their land with no option but to run the gauntlet of trying to enter the US illegally?
Where Chinese teenagers work 12 hours a day for less than a living wage making trinkets for New Orleans' Mardi Gras?

Just where do we have fair wages and fair trade?

Each shall enjoy the fruits of his own labor sounds like everyone ought to carry their own load-just like other places in the Bible point out.

Indeed it does. That is an essential socialist principle we see violated every day under capitalism. People are denied the due reward of their labour over and over again--and often denied even the right to labour.

Once again you're taking Acts out of context, these were people who banded together to help build the church and spread the gospel as missionaries and disciples-their primary goal was never, nor would it ever be to take care of the downtrodden.

The early church seemed to think you cannot do one without the other.

I really think that we are going to have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I don't think the Bible supports one system over another, but instead lays out a blueprint for a Godly life-one of those things being helping other people. Another one also being liberty.

I think the main point here is that the bible does not just lay out what a godly life is for an individual, but also what a godly society looks like. That is why it has often been Christians at the forefront of social reforms such as the abolition of slavery and legal discrimination. We could wish the church had also been more supportive of the rights of workers fighting for minimum wages,maximum hours, decent working conditions and the right of women to work. Fairness to the labourer is a strong theme of scripture and one we should pay more attention to.

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

Have you any idea how many workers on pineapple plantations have never tasted a pineapple? Or how many Mexicans growing tomatoes for US and Canadian grocery stores have never tasted a tomato? Did you know that planeloads of fresh nutrititious vegetables left Ethiopia for Europe every day in the midst of the famine in the 1980s?

..do you know any Mexican farm laborers, because here in Tennessee I know a lot of them and I can tell you that you're talking out of your butt to be completely honest. You vastly exaggerate the poverty of a group of laborers who the vast majority aren't even here legally, and hence, not all make minimum wage. Why vegetables were leaving Ethiopia I don't know, but I'll guarantee you that there was food arriving from guess what-evil capitalist America.

Meanwhile the Canadian tomato industry which used to employ hundreds of people has gone defunct because Mexican imports are cheaper. The important corn-growing industry of Mexico and the cotton-industry of West Africa are failing in the face of American imports. And its not even fair trade, for the American imports are heavily subsidized and sold well below the cost of production.

not sure if this was supposed to be an argument for socialism or just an attempt to make the US look like the boogey man for feeding most of the world. You really can't be surprised that developed countries produce more than underdeveloped ones and I'm surprised to hear a socialist (if that is indeed what you are and not simply an American/capitalist basher) complain that food is grown here on government money so that it can be sold cheaply everywhere around the world. The US feeds the planet, and although I'm not going to say that there aren't bad aspects to the world being dependent on the US but the bottom line is that we are the most charitable nation on the earth and in a warped sense of the world are supporting global socialism by using tax dollars to keep food costs down for people and sending billions of dollars in relief overseas every time there is a famine or people in dire need.

Capitalism creates millions of people who need charity because they have been deprived of justice. And capitalists are all too ready to offer charity as a poor substitute for justice.

You can either let the people going through the drought die of starvation or send them food. I agree that us bailing out 3rd world countries making them more dependent on us, but in old times they would have just starved. What's a socialist cry, "Bread for everyone?" That you're even arguing against the US (a rich country) spending its money to feed starving people across the world and keep food costs down doesn't seem to make much sense for a socialist to be arguing. We should help make these countries more dependent but by withholding aid isn't the way.

God calls for both: justice always, charity as necessary.

and capitalism calls for everyone carrying their own load, economic freedom to the individual, and has historically has not only produced the richest nation on earth, but also the most charitable. Charitable to a fault, maybe, but if we feed the starving we're attacked on one side by people like you but then there is the outcry from everyone in the world when we don't do something.

You've not made any sort of argument for socialism or even a valid one against capitalism.

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

my last response because i'm really getting sick of going back and forth in this pointless debate.

We have? Where?

Where women are not allowed to own land?

dunno, they can in capitalist countries though. Maybe in the theocracies and dictatorships of the Middle East they can't. So you really just said nothing by saying something..

Where child care workers are paid minimum wage while hockey players get millions per annum?

If the hockey player makes millions he's in an upper tax bracket and pays about half of his income in taxes which the government piddles away on, among other things, social programs to help subsidize daycares and those in lower employment brackets. I've never heard of someone running a daycare making minimum wage though, it has always been more-and do the math, figure you can have 20 kids. So another debunked argument.

And thousands of other women are made dependent on welfare when they could be working, because there isn't sufficient child-care to go around.

They're made dependent on welfare, first of all, not because there isn't child care, but because they are incapable of providing for themselves. Child care is expensive, true, but people are in all honesty, not supposed to be able to support a family on their own without government assistance when they have 0 skills and no real education or training. You're complaining about a socialist program that is present in almost every capitalist nation...maybe I should let you keep chewing your own legs off by arguing how social programs make people more dependent on the government, so that I don't have to. If it be welfare OR government provided childcare, she is still on government assistance and the government is still spending money on her. The end result is the same-government expense and the person becoming dependent on it.

Where subsidized corn grown on US farms is displacing millions of Mexican peasants from their land with no option but to run the gauntlet of trying to enter the US illegally?

Gotta love NAFTA.. North American FREE TRADE Agreement, which is really the only thing giving any Latin American countries the ability to become industrialized or agriculturally independent BECAUSE they have free trade with the US and can get equipment cheaper and can sell their exports without worrying about tariff. Corruption in Mexico is the problem, not their big brother to the north.

Where Chinese teenagers work 12 hours a day for less than a living wage making trinkets for New Orleans' Mardi Gras?

Chinese kids working in sweatshops is socialism at its finest, what can I say? China exports everywhere, but it sounds like you're trying to blame capitalism for them exploiting slave labor (for the good of their society as a whole.. YAY SOCIALISM) when it isn't even just capitalist countries they export to. The only thing that is raising the standard of living in China is their gradual steps away from socialism and towards capitalism as they allow more venders into their culture and promote the free market they are gaining human rights and better wages. It is extremely ignorant to try and use China as an argument either against socialism or capitalism.

Just where do we have fair wages and fair trade?

I have a feeling we have different opinions on just exactly what "fair" is. You might argue that a 9 dollar an hour minimum wage is fair, but the reality of it is that raising the minimum wage simply creates inflation which hurts everyone who isn't on minimum wage and has no real impact on those who are on minimum wage. Whatever you are considering 'fair' trade, I have no idea, but I can suggest you do your civil liberty (you have those in Canada, right?) and write your representative to express your ideas to them, because they could actually evaluate them if you formed them into an intelligible concept.

 

[mayfly]

Read the OT and NT. They talk of private ownership and personal management of one's wealth... hardly socialist ideals but consistent with capitalism!

Truly sincere but misguided people confuse Bible-based Christian social values with collectivism. Nowhere does the Bible teach socialism/collectivism, but Bible-based moral values work in any society and system... including capitalism.

The Wiki webpage on Christian Socialism cites Paul Tillich as an example! The man was no Christian. His denied the basic doctrines of the Chrsitian faith (see out creeds to join this forum!) and he regulary required his theological students to make their wives available to him for his sexual pleasure. No Christian theologian would ever do that and no Christian seminary student would ever go along with this sinful immoral demand.

This is an example of the leadership of Christian Socialsm. No thanks. Because I believe the Bible to be God's Word and love Jesus Christ, I want absolutely NOTHING to do with any sinful and immoral system of belief and lifestyle... including his "Christian" Socialism. If the root is rotten, the fruit will be rotten too. No Christian - no person who loves God and Jesus - should have anything to do with it. The Bible orders us to treat those who CLAIM to be true Christians as NON-CHRISTIANS if they continue to live in immorality.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

I believer that capitalism is "everyone for themselves"
Why?
Because capitalism loves profit.
Anyways..
I believe that everything Jesus did was socialism.
He gave food for those who followed him. He did NOT send them away and say, "be more productive of yourselves"
He ate together with his disciples and there was a treasurer to control the wealth they had-in this case, Judas was treasurer just let you know.
(Judas loved Christ, he was just victim of temptation..or else he wouldn't have committed suicide of guilt..poor man.)
Jesus gave his wealth and shared it with the poor.
He cared for poor.
However, he did have some capitalism view where there is a master and tree servants who was given wealth to prosper. However, it was the MASTER who gave them WEALTH.

And the institution of early Christian church was ABOUT socialism where everyone gave up what they had and gave it to the authority of the church.

and Oh Lord...mayfly.
Have some logic and reason for once...no offense..

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

I believer that capitalism is "everyone for themselves"
Why?
Because capitalism loves profit.
Anyways..
I believe that everything Jesus did was socialism.
He gave food for those who followed him. He did NOT send them away and say, "be more productive of yourselves"
He ate together with his disciples and there was a treasurer to control the wealth they had-in this case, Judas was treasurer just let you know.
(Judas loved Christ, he was just victim of temptation..or else he wouldn't have committed suicide of guilt..poor man.)
Jesus gave his wealth and shared it with the poor.
He cared for poor.
However, he did have some capitalism view where there is a master and tree servants who was given wealth to prosper. However, it was the MASTER who gave them WEALTH.

And the institution of early Christian church was ABOUT socialism where everyone gave up what they had and gave it to the authority of the church.

and Oh Lord...mayfly.
Have some logic and reason for once...no offense..

You can make a great argument that Jesus was compassionate, which He was, but you can't make an argument that He was any more socialist than capitalist. Jesus met very many people who had lots of money during His travels, and even stayed with some of them. However, the only times Jesus said that it was not good for them to be rich was when the money had become an idol and the men were wanting to become disciples.

Any organization is going to have a treasurer and Him and His disciples were family-so I suppose the family unit in which the parents feed the children is in support of socialism....I mean, just look at nature-it is everywhere!

Jesus came preaching that He was the Way.
Jesus came preaching love the Lord thy God.
Jesus came preaching love your neighbor as thyself.
He came preaching good deeds through faith, not government control.
He came preaching freedom.

No where did He come preaching socialism and I'll once again say that this is a biased conclusion because the things Jesus did have nothing more in common with socialism than any other government and if you look at what socialist countries are in reality outside of Utopia, the application is always as far from the ideals as the East is from the West and it is a completely oppressive and economically unsound system. Not to mention completely unsupported anywhere in the Bible.

 

[YoungJoonKim]

Well, I guess your right.

We shouldn't have fire department, police department, library, schools, etc if socialism is so bad.
I mean really, they are RAN and DICTATED by GOVERNMENT after all
*wink*
Oh I forgot
money IS idol for many corporations in United States.
remember, sweatshops and outsourcing of Wal Mart and many more for nice little profits *another wink*
And guess what, for us all. And more, people in USA are losing jobs because of it
yay~

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

Well, I guess your right.

We shouldn't have fire department, police department, library, schools, etc if socialism is so bad.
I mean really, they are RAN and DICTATED by GOVERNMENT after all
*wink*
Oh I forgot
money IS idol for many corporations in United States.
remember, sweatshops and outsourcing of Wal Mart and many more for nice little profits *another wink*
And guess what, for us all. And more, people in USA are losing jobs because of it
yay~

#1 public works is different than social programs. If I need to tell you the difference, you need to be reading instead of arguing.

#2 People in the USA are losing jobs because China (Marxist) is doing what socialist countries do by employing billions of people and paying them dirt. The only reason why businesses are going overseas is because China isn't afraid to exploit its people in typical socialist fashion for the good of the nation as a whole, even if that means billions of people and little kids working in sweatshop.

China has the world market by the you-know-what but that is because they don't care about human rights. whee for socialism.

The 'outsourcing of jobs' is a misrepresentation of what has really been taking place over the course of the last 40 years in the US. Lots of manufacturing has gone overseas but it has been met with an increase in service-oriented jobs. It is a shift, not a falling out.

I'd suggest a little bit of research into what is actually going on, it might help with that eye twitch you've developed.

You should quit trying to

 

[mont974x4]

No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity and it is our job, as the Church, to help those in need...not the governments.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

No where did He come preaching socialism and I'll once again say that this is a biased conclusion because the things Jesus did have nothing more in common with socialism than any other government and if you look at what socialist countries are in reality outside of Utopia, the application is always as far from the ideals as the East is from the West and it is a completely oppressive and economically unsound system. Not to mention completely unsupported anywhere in the Bible.

Actually, everything Jesus taught was about socialism and sharing and looking after the poor and rejecting those in charge and rejesting ways of greed. And I hardly think you can say socialism doesn't work, it's never been tried! Stalinism is as far from socialism as Nazism is from capitalism. But then, since the world is based on a capitalist system and 1 billion people are staving, that seems a little bit worse than anything Stalinism's ever done! 80 million Americans live in poverty. What a good sales pitch for capitalism that is!

 

[mayfly]

No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity and it is our job, as the Church, to help those in need...not the governments.

Exactly! Right on.

 

[mayfly]

Actually, everything Jesus taught was about socialism and sharing and looking after the poor and rejecting those in charge and rejesting ways of greed. And I hardly think you can say socialism doesn't work, it's never been tried! Stalinism is as far from socialism as Nazism is from capitalism. But then, since the world is based on a capitalist system and 1 billion people are staving, that seems a little bit worse than anything Stalinism's ever done! 80 million Americans live in poverty. What a good sales pitch for capitalism that is!

No. this is illogical and nonsense. None of these has anything to do with socialism: looking after the poor and rejecting those in charge and rejecting ways of greed

All those can apply to capitalism. There are capitalist who care for the poor, who reject those in charge, and how reject greed. I do, for one! Pat Robertson does for another. There are millions more.

And socialism doesn't work. It always degenerates into a power grab and loss of freedom.

People starve because of a lack of captialism. Look at the third world socialist dictatorships.

 

[Slave2Righteousness]

Actually, everything Jesus taught was about socialism and sharing and looking after the poor and rejecting those in charge and rejesting ways of greed. And I hardly think you can say socialism doesn't work, it's never been tried! Stalinism is as far from socialism as Nazism is from capitalism. But then, since the world is based on a capitalist system and 1 billion people are staving, that seems a little bit worse than anything Stalinism's ever done! 80 million Americans live in poverty. What a good sales pitch for capitalism that is!

Jesus definitely didn't reject those in government control, he respected them. He rejected the teachings of the Pharisees and Saudacees because they were wrong and the priests themselves were hypocrites. He was the Son of God afterall, He was in a position to know. He never disrespected established authority though, even Herod who mocked him so you can't justify in any Biblical manner that Christianity supports a rebellious spirit.

The rest I believe common sense and Mayfly have taken care of.

I'd really like to see the stats for the 80 million Americans in poverty and then see them side by side with what poverty is in other (heck, lets even use socialist) countries in the world. You'll notice there is a stark difference. People in poverty in other countries don't have houses, tvs, or cars-they starve and live in houses made of trash and tin.

 

[FluffyRabbitHunter]

Jesus definitely didn't reject those in government control, he respected them. He rejected the teachings of the Pharisees and Saudacees because they were wrong and the priests themselves were hypocrites. He was the Son of God afterall, He was in a position to know. He never disrespected established authority though, even Herod who mocked him so you can't justify in any Biblical manner that Christianity supports a rebellious spirit.

What bible are you reading? In my Bible everyone in Authority hated Jesus because he preached a message that the poor and suffering were as worthy as the rich and powerful. That's a pretty anti capitalistic message!

The rest I believe common sense and Mayfly have taken care of.

Arguments so full of holes they couldn't even be used as a sieve havn't convinced me at all. Sorry, but the Bible is so far away from capitalism and all you've been doing is posting a few random verses and pretty much making the rest up!

I'd really like to see the stats for the 80 million Americans in poverty and then see them side by side with what poverty is in other (heck, lets even use socialist) countries in the world. You'll notice there is a stark difference. People in poverty in other countries don't have houses, tvs, or cars-they starve and live in houses made of trash and tin.

And the fact that the world economy works on a capitalist system with an elite bourgeois controlling the world and its wealth therefore means...? That the system where people live in tin houses doesn't work? That capitalism... doesn't work! Well done, glad you now agree that not everyone can be wealthy under capitalism. In fact, oly a select few can be wealthy under capitalism!


But meh, never let facts get in the way of a good story!

 

[YoungJoonKim]

So...capitalism is the best possible economy which leaves no one behind?