Socialism vs. Capitalism

[Leap]

Competition and profit are not necessarily bad things. Competition in a free market actually improves the quality of goods and services available and tends to keep prices lower than what you will see in a state managed economy. Profit, despite your equating it with avarice, is what makes it possible to be more charitable ... you cannot give money to help those in need if the money doesn't exist. Create more wealth and there is more wealth available to the common man.

You are still missing the point. It isnt about how much we can achieve, as if the ends justify the means, but simply what our attitude and behaviour is with what we have. Faith without works is dead, but you are making an idol of works themselves as if it is given us to save this world if only we can muster enough power.

Yes, you've made your preference clear. I am curious though, if others do not agree with you do you then compel them to do things your way? And I'm also curious how strongly you would have condemned Jesus Christ as He was VERY DESTABILIZING to the established order of His day. And if you're opposed to 'change' you must of necessity be opposed to God as He most definitely wants mankind to be changed.

Christ destabilised a broken society for a purpose, he did not propose continuing instability (that is to be found in capitalism).

 

[BondiHarry]

You are still missing the point. It isnt about how much we can achieve, as if the ends justify the means, but simply what our attitude and behaviour is with what we have.

I will never understand this apparent hatred for people honoring God by hard work, creation of wealth and using that wealth for His purposes. I am content with what God chooses to bless me with but as God says he who sows sparingly will reap sparingly, he who sows plentifully will reap plentifully ... if God calls for me or anyone else to strive to do things mightily, who are you Leap to say "NO! You must not strive mightily because it destabilizes society" (I guess the nature of that society doesn't matter so long as no one does anything to destabilize it ... I wonder how that would have worked in the society that Hitler and the Nazis built).

Faith without works is dead, but you are making an idol of works themselves as if it is given us to save this world if only we can muster enough power.

I dare say Leap you have no way of knowing what God is calling others to do yet you equate others doing great works with making an idol of work or thinking we are the author of our success. Perhaps you should read about Godly judgment, you are coming to a great many conclusions that are not based on facts ... ie you are judging on appearances and NOT judging righteous judgment.

Christ destabilised a broken society for a purpose, he did not propose continuing instability (that is to be found in capitalism).

In short your theory that anything that destabilizes society is bad is completely contrary to the example of Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jeremiah and ALL the great prophets of the Bible. Any society that is not committed to God is profoundly UNSTABLE. Leap, can you name even one society that is fully committed to God? Just ONE! If not you by your position are championing the continued un-Godliness of an existing society all in the name of 'stability'.

 

[Leap]

I will never understand this apparent hatred for people honoring God by hard work, creation of wealth and using that wealth for His purposes. I am content with what God chooses to bless me with but as God says he who sows sparingly will reap sparingly, he who sows plentifully will reap plentifully ... if God calls for me or anyone else to strive to do things mightily, who are you Leap to say "NO! You must not strive mightily because it destabilizes society" (I guess the nature of that society doesn't matter so long as no one does anything to destabilize it ... I wonder how that would have worked in the society that Hitler and the Nazis built).

Attacking a culture to bring down an evil and rebuild it in a stable manner is not the same as promoting a value set that is inherently and constantly unstable.

And you are not honouring God by accumulating wealth. Rather you are dishonouring God by treating the world as fixable by us if only we had enough power.

I dare say Leap you have no way of knowing what God is calling others to do yet you equate others doing great works with making an idol of work or thinking we are the author of our success. Perhaps you should read about Godly judgment, you are coming to a great many conclusions that are not based on facts ... ie you are judging on appearances and NOT judging righteous judgment.

I have explained this already and see no need to do so again.

In short your theory that anything that destabilizes society is bad is completely contrary to the example of Jesus, Paul, Peter, Jeremiah and ALL the great prophets of the Bible. Any society that is not committed to God is profoundly UNSTABLE. Leap, can you name even one society that is fully committed to God? Just ONE! If not you by your position are championing the continued un-Godliness of an existing society all in the name of 'stability'.

I have not said that anything that destabilises society is bad. I have said that an unstable society is bad, which is in accord with instruction for us to build on rock and not on sand. Capitalism, as I have shown, is unstable and promotes instability. A society built upon it is built on sand.

Sometimes it is necessary to shake a society to correct it, but you do not correct it by making it unstable.

 

[dragongunner]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherit virtue is the equal sharing of miserey." Winston Churchill


"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Cummunism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of Socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism."
Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev, 1959

10 virgins in the bible waiting for the bridesgroom....5 wise 5 foolish....the wise kept oil in their lamps.....5 more on the lazy side didn't want to work at that, but expeted on the day that came others would give to them of their abundace....an they were left out. Now the real meaning of this is 10 were christians, but only half were saved because they kept to the "faith".....but it reminds me of the handouts socialist want....

 

[jellio]

in the Uk I have lived through capitalist and socialism governments. I am a socialist but I would not say that it is not perfect. In the UK capitalist gov. reduced our fuel producing industry and our steal industry to rubble. Our manufacturing industry disappeared. and now our public services and NHS are going the same way.

Under a socialist gov. we were all better off. now its less for the majority and more for the few.

I would kike to see a christian influenced in all the main political parties.

jellio

 

[BondiHarry]

Attacking a culture to bring down an evil and rebuild it in a stable manner is not the same as promoting a value set that is inherently and constantly unstable.

It is evil to impose your will upon others ... not even God does this in our fallen world nor did Jesus when He walked among us.

And you are not honouring God by accumulating wealth. Rather you are dishonouring God by treating the world as fixable by us if only we had enough power.

How does it dishonor God to accumulate wealth? Why would God tell us in Deuteronomy 8:18 that "thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day". Why would He tell us in Proverbs 13:22 that "A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children" ... not all people INHERIT wealth and it is a good and noble thing to CREATE wealth with God's help so that one who inherited nothing can still leave an inheritance and do all the other things that God calls for us to do. If we accumulate it and do not use it for God's purposes and glory that is one thing but God never said money is evil, it is the LOVE of money that is evil.

Leap, you are creating a creed of your own imagination that conflicts with much that God tells us. Doing as God calls for us to do makes us a light in an otherwise dark world ... we are not forcing our ways on others but showing lost others that God's was are SUPERIOR to the ways of carnal man.

I have explained this already and see no need to do so again.

You have wrongly attributed avarice to making a profit, you pretend there is a difference between benefit and profit and you wrongly believe creating wealth is an evil when Deuteronomy makes clear it is a gift of God.

I have not said that anything that destabilises society is bad. I have said that an unstable society is bad, which is in accord with instruction for us to build on rock and not on sand.

Thus far you speak truly.

Capitalism, as I have shown, is unstable and promotes instability. A society built upon it is built on sand.

And then you immediately blow it. Capitalism exposes all the lies of carnal man regarding the nature of wealth, of work and reward, of the superiority of men enjoying the liberty that God would bless them with over the servitude you would apparently impose on others because YOU believe a man invented doctrine of 'distributism' is the way to go despite how badly YOUR beloved system actually conflicts with the word of God.

Sometimes it is necessary to shake a society to correct it, but you do not correct it by making it unstable.

A society that is based on stealing the liberty that God would bless us with and forcibly imposing servitude upon men (no, you cannot operate a capitalist system, it MUST be distributism), that condemns wealth creation and mistakes taking from men according to their ability with charity is already fundamentally unstable. As I've said any society where there are those who would make slaves of other men and other men who desire to be free is at its core unstable and pretending otherwise does not make it any more stable.

 

[Leap]

It is evil to impose your will upon others ... not even God does this in our fallen world nor did Jesus when He walked among us.

Neither God nor Jesus married either, so is that evil as well? Just because Jesus did not do something it doesnt mean that that something is evil. And, incidentally, if you take any steps to stop anyone imposing their will on someone else YOU YOURSELF are guilty of imposing your will on them....so you just contradicted yourself.

How does it dishonor God to accumulate wealth?

Getting wealth and loving mammon, profit, are NOT the same thing. When you love money, you treat it as the true saviour of the world if only we could accumulate enough of it.

And then you immediately blow it. Capitalism expose all the lies of carnal man regarding the nature of wealth, of work and reward, of the superiority of men enjoying the liberty that God would bless them with over the servitude you would apparently impose on others because YOU believe a man invented doctrine of 'distributism' is the way to go despite how badly YOUR beloved system actually conflicts with the word of God.

Capitalism makes an idol of profit.

A society that is based on stealing the liberty that God would bless us with and forcibly imposing servitude upon men (no, you cannot operate a capitalist system, it MUST be distributism), that condemns wealth creation and mistakes taking from men according to their ability with charity is already fundamentally unstable. As I've said any society where there are those who would make slaves of other men and other men who desire to be free is at its core unstable and pretending otherwise does not make it any more stable.

Rubbish. See my first answer.

in the Uk I have lived through capitalist and socialism governments. I am a socialist but I would not say that it is not perfect. In the UK capitalist gov. reduced our fuel producing industry and our steal industry to rubble. Our manufacturing industry disappeared. and now our public services and NHS are going the same way.

Under a socialist gov. we were all better off. now its less for the majority and more for the few.

I would kike to see a christian influenced in all the main political parties.

jellio

I've lived through a socialist govt of Callahan and Wilson that grovelled to the greed of some of the unions. I lived under the false conservative Tory govt of Thatcher and Major, who put individualism and greed before tradition and duty. I've lived under the champagne socialism of Blair and Brown, with their luncatic debt and spend. And I now live under another false conservative Tory govt who will trample the poor in the name of business. NONE of them are any good (and that includes the minor parties as well).

 

[jellio]

Neither God nor Jesus married either, so is that evil as well? Just because Jesus did not do something it doesnt mean that that something is evil. And, incidentally, if you take any steps to stop anyone imposing their will on someone else YOU YOURSELF are guilty of imposing your will on them....so you just contradicted yourself.



Getting wealth and loving mammon, profit, are NOT the same thing. When you love money, you treat it as the true saviour of the world if only we could accumulate enough of it.



Capitalism makes an idol of profit.



Rubbish. See my first answer.



I've lived through a socialist govt of Callahan and Wilson that grovelled to the greed of some of the unions. I lived under the false conservative Tory govt of Thatcher and Major, who put individualism and greed before tradition and duty. I've lived under the champagne socialism of Blair and Brown, with their luncatic debt and spend. And I now live under another false conservative Tory govt who will trample the poor in the name of business. NONE of them are any good (and that includes the minor parties as well).

Thats why I think politics need more Christians in all parties.

 

[BondiHarry]

Neither God nor Jesus married either, so is that evil as well?

This comment is silly. The Bible says a great deal about marriage (as it does about the handling of money as well).

Just because Jesus did not do something it doesnt mean that that something is evil.

If you want to practice distributism and only handle inherited wealth have at it, just don't expect those of us who find it foolish to embrace it.

And, incidentally, if you take any steps to stop anyone imposing their will on someone else YOU YOURSELF are guilty of imposing your will on them....so you just contradicted yourself

Another silly comment. God teaches us about true morality and holiness and establishes governments to deal with the predatory man. God does not deny us the right to deal with those who would rape, murder, steal or blackmail us etc.

Getting wealth and loving mammon, profit, are NOT the same thing.

You really need to wean yourself from this foolish idea that wealth is a static quantity and if one profits in a transaction it means someone else has lost out ... people making free decisions on what benefits them makes free market transactions a win/win situation.

When you love money, you treat it as the true saviour of the world if only we could accumulate enough of it.

True enough but you really need to get the Biblical understanding of what love of money actually means. Creating wealth is a good thing when the man of God uses it for God's purposes. Creating wealth for the purpose of simply using it to cater to the lusts of the flesh is what you should be talking about.

Capitalism makes an idol of profit

When one properly understands what 'profit' is, they disregard statements such as yours here. How one handles profit will determine if it is idolatrous or not.

Rubbish. See my first answer.

You have a very perverse idea of what a 'stable' society is.

I've lived through a socialist govt of Callahan and Wilson that grovelled to the greed of some of the unions. I lived under the false conservative Tory govt of Thatcher and Major, who put individualism and greed before tradition and duty. I've lived under the champagne socialism of Blair and Brown, with their luncatic debt and spend. And I now live under another false conservative Tory govt who will trample the poor in the name of business. NONE of them are any good (and that includes the minor parties as well).

So let's opt for Godly government where government does no more than wield the sword against the evil doer (meaning the predatory man) and ensures justice for all men. Where government does not define marriage, mandate the 'true' religion, interfere in the free economic decisions of the individual or care for the poor and needy. Let government no longer be a tool for one group of people to oppress and loot another group of people.

 

[Leap]

Thats why I think politics need more Christians in all parties.

We actually need for the country to be run by Christians. John Adams was right when he said:

"The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost, Who is transmitted from age to age by laying the hands of the Bishop on the heads of candidates for the ministry. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious — there can be no legitimate government — but what is administered by this Holy Ghost"

(it's my quote of the day )

 

[Leap]

Another silly comment. God teaches us about true morality and holiness and establishes governments to deal with the predatory man. God does not deny us the right to deal with those who would rape, murder, steal or blackmail us etc.

Sorry this does not address my response to you. Your comment was that "It is evil to impose your will upon others" and I pointed out that if you ever seek to act on that and get another person to stop imposing their will on someone, your contradict yourself.

You really need to wean yourself from this foolish idea that wealth is a static quantity and if one profits in a transaction it means someone else has lost out ... people making free decisions on what benefits them makes free market transactions a win/win situation.

I have not said that wealth is static. I have said that it is avarice to seek profit.

When one properly understands what 'profit' is, they disregard statements such as yours here. How one handles profit will determine if it is idolatrous or not.

In seeking profit, in being motivated by profit, you make an idol of it as alleged saviour of the world. Avarice.

You have a very perverse idea of what a 'stable' society is.

Not at all. It is one that does not enshrine a value that promotes constant change.

So let's opt for Godly government where government does no more than wield the sword against the evil doer (meaning the predatory man) and ensures justice for all men. Where government does not define marriage, mandate the 'true' religion, interfere in the free economic decisions of the individual or care for the poor and needy. Let government no longer be a tool for one group of people to oppress and loot another group of people.

What we need, as a society, is Christendom.

 

[ameriswede]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherit virtue is the equal sharing of miserey." Winston Churchill


"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Cummunism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of Socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism."
Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev, 1959

10 virgins in the bible waiting for the bridesgroom....5 wise 5 foolish....the wise kept oil in their lamps.....5 more on the lazy side didn't want to work at that, but expeted on the day that came others would give to them of their abundace....an they were left out. Now the real meaning of this is 10 were christians, but only half were saved because they kept to the "faith".....but it reminds me of the handouts socialist want....

When Jesus spoke parables, He intended for them to give us insight into principles of life and faith, that he deemed important. Please refrain from placing on a meaning on the words and intentions of Jesus. If you want to start misinterpreting Scripture to support your point, join a cult.

Now, I am a capitalist. One that thinks American society would benefit from a touch of solidarity. That does not make me a socialist, nor does it lead me to a willingness to twist biblical truths, to argue my case. Just a suggestion.

 

[ameriswede]

When Jesus spoke parables, He intended for them to give us insight into principles of life and faith, that he deemed important. Please refrain from placing on a meaning on the words and intentions of Jesus. If you want to start misinterpreting Scripture to support your point, join a cult.

Now, I am a capitalist. One that thinks American society would benefit from a touch of solidarity. That does not make me a socialist, nor does it lead me to a willingness to twist biblical truths, to argue my case. Just a suggestion.

PS
If you would argue that socialists one handouts. Please define what you mean by socialist. I think it is fair to say that you would define the country I live in as socialist. Fox News does, so I take your stance on that for granted. So let me say, that in such a country, it is not people that are looking for handouts that are the problem. Sometimes people need help. The problem is that in USA, to many people, get too little help...on account of greed and a hoarding of the countries wealth. 1% of population hoards approximately 40% of the wealth. You don't want a statistic on what the poor live on, or try to live on...so let's just call it crumbs that have been swept of the banqueting table. (You may want to read the book of Micah)

 

[BondiHarry]

Sorry this does not address my response to you. Your comment was that "It is evil to impose your will upon others" and I pointed out that if you ever seek to act on that and get another person to stop imposing their will on someone, your contradict yourself.

It has to do with a very simple concept Leap, which is the INITIATION of the use of force in human relations. If I turn a mans head into a canoe with my .357 magnum because he was attacking my wife with the intent to rape her, the one who initiated force is the rapist. It is absurd to equate the use of force in self-defense with the use of force in a wanton and unjustified attack. Or to simplify it for you, it is absurd to equate a rapist attempting to impose his will upon my wife to rape her is the same as my 'imposing' my will upon her would be rapist that he NOT rape her.

I have not said that wealth is static. I have said that it is avarice to seek profit.

You seem to love circles. You equate the creation of wealth in capitalism with avarice yet in a free market it is capital plus labor (plus intellect) which leads to the creation of goods and services that others freely wish to use that leads to profit (the consumer sees greater value in goods or services available than the money they have in hand yet YOU call this avarice on the part of the businessman that he made the effort to create the goods or services that the consumer might want to have ... tis a bizarre take on commerce Leap. Avarice might be equated with a false balance (not paying an employee a fair wage or shortchanging a customer in the value of a good or service for the money paid) but this is a shortcoming in a mans heart so put the blame for avarice where it belongs ... in the heart of a corrupt man rather than in a system where avarice is NOT a prerequisite.

In seeking profit, in being motivated by profit, you make an idol of it as alleged saviour of the world. Avarice.

Nonsense. You MUST consider how the profit is made and in capitalism it is made in freely reached transactions where BOTH/ALL parties see gain. Idolatry is putting ANYTHING before God.

Not at all. It is one that does not enshrine a value that promotes constant change.

Leap, until men have become holy like God, change in human societies is a GOOD thing ... or are you willing to enshrine the corruption in men or society when both are well short of being holy in the name of 'stability'. A corrupt man or society is inherently unstable my word parsing friend.

What we need, as a society, is Christendom.

Christendom is founded in holiness and God's wisdom yet you are quite content to enshrine corruption in the name of 'stability' and condemn capitalism with its amazing PROVEN ability to create wealth and raise the living standards of people above the grinding poverty that has been the norm for mankind ... where is your love that Jesus commands you to have for your neighbor?

 

[ameriswede]

It has to do with a very simple concept Leap, which is the INITIATION of the use of force in human relations. If I turn a mans head into a canoe with my .357 magnum because he was attacking my wife with the intent to rape her, the one who initiated force is the rapist. It is absurd to equate the use of force in self-defense with the use of force in a wanton and unjustified attack. Or to simplify it for you, it is absurd to equate a rapist attempting to impose his will upon my wife to rape her is the same as my 'imposing' my will upon her would be rapist that he NOT rape her.



You seem to love circles. You equate the creation of wealth in capitalism with avarice yet in a free market it is capital plus labor (plus intellect) which leads to the creation of goods and services that others freely wish to use that leads to profit (the consumer sees greater value in goods or services available than the money they have in hand yet YOU call this avarice on the part of the businessman that he made the effort to create the goods or services that the consumer might want to have ... tis a bizarre take on commerce Leap. Avarice might be equated with a false balance (not paying an employee a fair wage or shortchanging a customer in the value of a good or service for the money paid) but this is a shortcoming in a mans heart so put the blame for avarice where it belongs ... in the heart of a corrupt man rather than in a system where avarice is NOT a prerequisite.



Nonsense. You MUST consider how the profit is made and in capitalism it is made in freely reached transactions where BOTH/ALL parties see gain. Idolatry is putting ANYTHING before God.



Leap, until men have become holy like God, change in human societies is a GOOD thing ... or are you willing to enshrine the corruption in men or society when both are well short of being holy in the name of 'stability'. A corrupt man or society is inherently unstable my word parsing friend.



Christendom is founded in holiness and God's wisdom yet you are quite content to enshrine corruption in the name of 'stability' and condemn capitalism with its amazing PROVEN ability to create wealth and raise the living standards of people above the grinding poverty that has been the norm for mankind ... where is your love that Jesus commands you to have for your neighbor?

Mitt Romney Criticized By Franciscan Friars For Comments On The Poor

 

[ameriswede]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherit virtue is the equal sharing of miserey." Winston Churchill


"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to Cummunism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of Socialism until they suddenly awake to find they have Communism."
Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev, 1959

10 virgins in the bible waiting for the bridesgroom....5 wise 5 foolish....the wise kept oil in their lamps.....5 more on the lazy side didn't want to work at that, but expeted on the day that came others would give to them of their abundace....an they were left out. Now the real meaning of this is 10 were christians, but only half were saved because they kept to the "faith".....but it reminds me of the handouts socialist want....

Mitt Romney Criticized By Franciscan Friars For Comments On The Poor

 

[Leap]

It has to do with a very simple concept Leap, which is the INITIATION of the use of force in human relations. If I turn a mans head into a canoe with my .357 magnum because he was attacking my wife with the intent to rape her, the one who initiated force is the rapist. It is absurd to equate the use of force in self-defense with the use of force in a wanton and unjustified attack. Or to simplify it for you, it is absurd to equate a rapist attempting to impose his will upon my wife to rape her is the same as my 'imposing' my will upon her would be rapist that he NOT rape her.

In deciding that the initiation of force is the trigger you have yourself initiated force by saying "Don't...or else...". The moral key is not in the initiation of force as those who make this claim are as guilty of initiating the use of force as any.

You seem to love circles. You equate the creation of wealth in capitalism with avarice yet in a free market it is capital plus labor (plus intellect) which leads to the creation of goods and services that others freely wish to use that leads to profit (the consumer sees greater value in goods or services available than the money they have in hand yet YOU call this avarice on the part of the businessman that he made the effort to create the goods or services that the consumer might want to have ... tis a bizarre take on commerce Leap. Avarice might be equated with a false balance (not paying an employee a fair wage or shortchanging a customer in the value of a good or service for the money paid) but this is a shortcoming in a mans heart so put the blame for avarice where it belongs ... in the heart of a corrupt man rather than in a system where avarice is NOT a prerequisite.

If additional benefits arrive without you seeking them, you profit but do not have the profit motive. If you actively seek gain then you have the profit motive and thus are guilty of avarice. Please realise this important difference.

Leap, until men have become holy like God, change in human societies is a GOOD thing ... or are you willing to enshrine the corruption in men or society when both are well short of being holy in the name of 'stability'. A corrupt man or society is inherently unstable my word parsing friend.

Change itself is not good, otherwise we would be instructed to build on sand rather than rock.

Christendom is founded in holiness and God's wisdom yet you are quite content to enshrine corruption in the name of 'stability' and condemn capitalism with its amazing PROVEN ability to create wealth and raise the living standards of people above the grinding poverty that has been the norm for mankind ... where is your love that Jesus commands you to have for your neighbor?

Capitalism's ability to undo poverty for some comes at too high a price; both for those who are vulnerable and for those who embrace avarice.

 

[Crawdad]

Capitalist. As a general rule government interference hurts more than it helps.

 

[ParentofChildren]

Which do you think is better? Which is moral? Do you believe that Christ supports one or the other?

I am a Christian Socialist, so I believe in socialism. I see capitalism as cruel and unjust. I also believe that the Bible supports socialism.

Acts 2:44-45:

Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

Acts 4:32-35:

Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Yes, see Acts.........

 

[pattersonabbie]

Socialism removes freedoms, America's forefathers developed a republic with freedoms. Preachers and individual christians who won souls worked as a service to our society and government by introducing individuals to a life changing experience with the God of goodness and His Christ. These peoples desires of love for God and fellowman which followed caused the society to be a good one. It is up to us as free individuals to help our society be good to one another. Otherwise bad ideologies will take root and eventually cause our collaspe.