Socialism does better in a stalled economy than capitalism

[BobRyan]

from:Tomlinson: U.S. responds to COVID-19 with socialism, and that's the right solution

"Political leaders must mitigate the damage, which means COVID-19 will introduce democratic socialism to the United States. We will not call it that, of course. But both Republicans and Democrats have announced plans that look a lot like Western European-style intervention."


Rations, telling people what they can do when they can work, where they can shop, what they can buy - relying on the government for checks -- and covering more people with "mediocre services" is the "sweet spot" for socialism, it thrives there.

By contrast Capitalism needs a fully functional economy. In war time it still works because economic output is just "redirected" to military related products and services.

American socialists are going to pull out every stop pointing to the "risk" of a fully functioning economy and the benefit of mediocrity under socialism.

The truth is - - the only thing stopping a full return to economic output - is having the therapeutic medications fully available -- (such as hydroxychloroquine and its cousin products) - that would blunt the impact of infection while herd immunity is still building, and while waiting for next year's vaccine.

Once they reduce the health risk of covid19 to the same as the health risk of the everyday flu (35k-65k) - it should be "Business as usual", but I am not sure that the socialists among us will want to let go of the keep-it-shut-down-for-socialism idea - even if those therapies are readily available.

 

[lordjeff]

It may appear to you that socialism works but you always run out of people's money. I mean the shelves are bare of toilet paper. So given a socialist govt. set on rationing, don't think we will be doled out equal tp b/c lawmakers will come first. Also we cannot keep printing money foreve. China only has to call in those bonds. Best lesson from this is to bring back all industries & jobs from overseas & give people a job. Would like to see a doubling in the STEM professions.

 

[charsan]

America as we know it is gone, we now are headed to socialism/communism. This will never end, there is no hope left that freedom and liberty will ever come back

 

[wing2000]

I don't care what kind of economic system you have, it will always do better if people are employed.

 

[Evan Jellicoe]

If you are opposed to Marxism (as I am), the whole thing about calling Democrats "crazy socialists" is nothing but smear propaganda. There is not one important Democrat who is even close to being a Marxist. Not even Bernie Sanders (technically Independent, but effectively Democrat.) Sanders was actually denounced as a fraud by some people who really do consider themselves Marxist. Using the "crazy socialist" label is simply the mirror image of calling Republicans "Nazis." It's nothing but name-calling, and in both cases it is factually incorrect. But, sadly, a lot of people actually believe such name-calling to be true. Those here who identify as Christians ought to know better; I sincerely hope that they all do.

 

[MorkandMindy]

One big element in Karl Marx's work (not to be confused with the other Marx brothers) was the class war between the low income working class & peasants, against the higher income Middle Class.

The Left promoting the interests of the lowest paid and the Right the interests of the Middle Class.

That was very evident in England both in his time and when I lived there, but less evident in the US. According to his definition H C was right-wing because she favored wealth for the middle class and was happy to swamp the working class permanently with Far East imports.

Bernie also appears to be on the right with his constant talk about the shrinking Middle Class and people falling out of the Middle Class (to where?) and the need to spend a huge amount of money creating well-paid employment in the Middle Class.

 

[Albion]

If you are opposed to Marxism (as I am), the whole thing about calling Democrats "crazy socialists" is nothing but smear propaganda. There is not one important Democrat who is even close to being a Marxist.

When Bernie calls himself a Socialist, has run as a candidate of a Socialist party, has been a longtime admirer of Stalinism, plus the "Democratic Socialists of America," AOL, and several other Congresspersons have endorsed Socialism, I think we can safely set your claim aside.

 

[MorkandMindy]

FDR was less extravagant, he paid just a little less than the going rate for the WPA workers, many of whom were construction workers, but also administrators but the pay difference I'm guessing was less then.

The 'Far Left' in the Democratic Party seem to be interested only in the Middle Class who they can relate to more easily and appear to be just employing more of them, keeping them reliant on govt money, and basically buying their votes.

Fortunately most of the Democratic Party have worked out what was going on and won't buy it.

For it's shame there are elements (elephants?) in the other party who are decrying the 'Far Left' which is actually on the Right by Marx's definition and most people's but joined with 'big government'. This adds to the confusion because the 'Far Left' are just a kind of Right but with tons of inefficiency and bureaucracy.

 

[Albion]

By what analysis would it be correct to say that that political party is on the "Right?"

 

[MorkandMindy]

It may appear to you that socialism works but you always run out of people's money. I mean the shelves are bare of toilet paper. So given a socialist govt. set on rationing, don't think we will be doled out equal tp b/c lawmakers will come first. Also we cannot keep printing money foreve. China only has to call in those bonds. Best lesson from this is to bring back all industries & jobs from overseas & give people a job. Would like to see a doubling in the STEM professions.

The system the US and UK run is 'neoliberalism' which is a free market but without national boundaries.

It means to buy things from where ever is cheapest, so a lot of our supply chains come from China, and therefore the control of the production is there and our money ends up there.

I warned everyone I could back in 1982 when this became official US policy, and the same in England at the same time, but nobody would listen and I don't think CF was around then either.

 

[Albion]

The system the US and UK run is 'neoliberalism' which is a free market but without national boundaries.

Neither of those countries in involved in a free market! While there is international trade as you said, there also are innumerable tariffs, quotas, government-imposed restraints on trade, subsidies, required licenses, inspections, requirements relating to who can be hired or fired as employees, what they can be paid, and on and on. THAT DOES NOT DESCRIBE A FREE MARKET.

 

[MorkandMindy]

By what analysis would it be correct to say that that political party is on the "Right?"

Sorry I clarified the post by changing 'they' to 'the Far Left'.

I see each party of consisting of three main elements pretty much mirroring each other.

The very rich in both agree on most things but differ on a matter of judgement over how far they can push inequality before the country rises up against them.

Both parties have a Middle Class contingent

And both parties have a low-income contingent. H C appealed in 2016 to the low income contingent by offering relief on college debt and D T appealed to the workers by promising to do as much as he could to rework the trade agreements with other countries and do what he could to keep manufacturing in the US.

The wealth of a country depends to a fair extent on being able to sell enough to other countries to keep the trade balance (Current Account Balance) on the level or in the positive.

Neglecting manufacturing and the working class means importing huge amounts from other countries and give other countries money, technology, and power.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Neither of those countries in involved in a free market! While there is international trade as you said, there also are innumerable tariffs, quotas, government-imposed restraints on trade, subsidies, required licenses, inspections, requirements relating to who can be hired or fired as employees, what they can be paid, and on and on. THAT DOES NOT DESCRIBE A FREE MARKET.

Bill Clinton signed NAFTA easing trade between the US and Mexico, and many US car companies took advantage of it to save money and moved their factories to Mexico.

I blame mainly the US for burdening companies and individuals with such crazy health care costs. Not just the car companies but also the whole supply chain suffers from that and was moved overseas.

It's my bed time now

 

[BobRyan]

It may appear to you that socialism works but you always run out of people's money. I mean the shelves are bare of toilet paper. So given a socialist govt. set on rationing, don't think we will be doled out equal tp b/c lawmakers will come first. .

The communist/socialist nanny-state model is the one that is the fall back when the economy fails.
Capitalism is the one you use for when you don't want a nanny-state and mere mediocre services - for example notice how socialists from Canada come to the U.S for health care when that health situation is a serious one and they can't afford to sit around for months on a "wait list" .
.

 

[loveofourlord]

The communist/socialist nanny-state model is the one that is the fall back when the economy fails.
Capitalism is the one you use for when you don't want a nanny-state and mere mediocre services - for example notice how socialists from Canada come to the U.S for health care when that health situation is a serious one and they can't afford to sit around for months on a "wait list" .
.

Most americans can't aford that either, and in canada, it's triage, the more serious your condition in general the quicker you get it done. plus I would have probably gone bankrupt last year if I lived in the states from the 2 hospital visits for bronchitis and pneumonia last christmas and the one before.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

But both Republicans and Democrats have announced plans that look a lot like Western European-style intervention."




Rations, telling people what they can do when they can work, where they can shop, what they can buy - relying on the government for checks -- and covering more people with "mediocre services" is the "sweet spot" for socialism, it thrives there.

By contrast Capitalism needs a fully functional economy. In war time it still works because economic output is just "redirected" to military related products and services.

American socialists are going to pull out every stop pointing to the "risk" of a fully functioning economy and the benefit of mediocrity under socialism.

The truth is - - the only thing stopping a full return to economic output - is having the therapeutic medications fully available -- (such as hydroxychloroquine and its cousin products) - that would blunt the impact of infection while herd immunity is still building, and while waiting for next year's vaccine.

Once they reduce the health risk of covid19 to the same as the health risk of the everyday flu (35k-65k) - it should be "Business as usual", but I am not sure that the socialists among us will want to let go of the keep-it-shut-down-for-socialism idea - even if those therapies are readily available.

Just a temporary fix here in the US to get things rolling.
Capitalism will live on.
We've seen what goes on in some of those Socialist countries.
We know there ain't no money tree.
M-Bob

 

[iluvatar5150]

It may appear to you that socialism works but you always run out of people's money. I mean the shelves are bare of toilet paper. So given a socialist govt. set on rationing, don't think we will be doled out equal tp b/c lawmakers will come first. Also we cannot keep printing money foreve. China only has to call in those bonds. Best lesson from this is to bring back all industries & jobs from overseas & give people a job. Would like to see a doubling in the STEM professions.

The present shortage of TP is a failing of our capitalist system to be able to quickly respond to a demand shock. There was no incentive for firms built out excess capacity when demand was typically pretty steady.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

The present shortage of TP is a failing of our capitalist system to be able to quickly respond to a demand shock. There was no incentive for firms built out excess capacity when demand was typically pretty steady.

Such a positive note.
M

 

[KCfromNC]

Such a positive note.
M

And one which apparently was factual enough that there's no actual counter to it.

 

[FenderTL5]

The present shortage of TP is a failing of our capitalist system to be able to quickly respond to a demand shock. There was no incentive for firms built out excess capacity when demand was typically pretty steady.

Agree.
Hoarders exploit capitalism when they run amuck, purchasing large quantities for themselves - or worse - with an intent to re-sale and price gouge. Laissez-faire would not only allow but reward the latter.
Even the current 1 item restriction(s) that are in place (at least locally) are not socialistic, but regulated capitalism.