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Colter

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The difference is Plato's words stand on their own merit. Whether there was an actual guy named Plato is largely irrelevant to the ideas that were written in Plato's name.

Jesus on the entire hand is entirely different. If there really was no Jesus, then the entirety of Christianity falls apart.

I agree with the point about Plato but Jesus' Words stand on their own merit as well. Jesus lived a God revealing life. Plato could be said to have lived a philosophically truth revealing life, much of his work and ideas being expressed in those who wrote about him.

One of the complicating and even contaminating problems with the Christian message, doctrine and theology, is that its largely a message about Jesus not of Jesus (Jesus had a gospel long before the cross, he wasn't preaching "Christ and him crucified" obviously). It's one that we also experience second hand in much the same way that we experience Plato second hand in the views of his associates. The New Testament is heavily influenced by the powerful and charismatic personality of Paul. Its important to bear in mind that the 4 gospels were written well after Paul's preaching and influence had begun to be incorporated in the recollection of the meaning of Jesus' teaching and his life.

Matters became further complicated by the desire to interpret Jesus through elements of Judaism as ALL of his apostles were former members of the Jewish faith.
 
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stevevw

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The bible has continuously been proven by archeology. When it mentioned names and places that historians questioned and doubted they were found in digs and proven true. As one archeologist said they are digging up bible stories.

Biblical Archaeology News 2014 (Bible History Online)
 
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PsychoSarah

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Dave Ellis

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I agree with the point about Plato but Jesus' Words stand on their own merit as well. Jesus lived a God revealing life. Plato could be said to have lived a philosophically truth revealing life, much of his work and ideas being expressed in those who wrote about him.

One of the complicating and even contaminating problems with the Christian message, doctrine and theology, is that its largely a message about Jesus not of Jesus (Jesus had a gospel long before the cross, he wasn't preaching "Christ and him crucified" obviously). It's one that we also experience second hand in much the same way that we experience Plato second hand in the views of his associates. The New Testament is heavily influenced by the powerful and charismatic personality of Paul. Its important to bear in mind that the 4 gospels were written well after Paul's preaching and influence had begun to be incorporated in the recollection of the meaning of Jesus' teaching and his life.

Matters became further complicated by the desire to interpret Jesus through elements of Judaism as ALL of his apostles were former members of the Jewish faith.



That still doesn't change the point that if there was no Jesus, then Christianity falls apart. The central doctrine of Christianity is Jesus sacrifice to save you from sin and whatnot.

If that never happened, then Christianity at it's very base is a sham. There may still be a couple decent moral teachings, however none of them started in Christianity, making the whole framework largely irrelevant.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Colter

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That still doesn't change the point that if there was no Jesus, then Christianity falls apart. The central doctrine of Christianity is Jesus sacrifice to save you from sin and whatnot.

If that never happened, then Christianity at it's very base is a sham. There may still be a couple decent moral teachings, however none of them started in Christianity, making the whole framework largely irrelevant.

That is the central tenant of Christianity, not the central truth of "the gospel of the kingdom of heaven."

You seem to have missed my point, Jesus had a religion that he lived and preached, Christianity became a religion about----->Jesus, not about his religion.

Today a person can share Jesus' faith and realize his truths. The wishful attempt to make Jesus disappear from history is folly; he is here now among us, the gates of hell won't be able to stop the indwelling spirit of the Father from bearing witness to the Son to those who truly desire to know God.
 
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Dave Ellis

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You seem to have missed my point, Jesus had a religion that he lived and preached, Christianity became a religion about----->Jesus, not about his religion.


This line demonstrates you are missing my point....

"Jesus had a religion that he lived and preached".... the point was, if Jesus didn't exist (as Plato might not have existed), then your statement is false.

If your statement is false, then the basis of Christianity is one big lie.

That's why the existence of Jesus matters a lot more than the existence of an actual guy named Plato.
 
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Colter

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This line demonstrates you are missing my point....

"Jesus had a religion that he lived and preached".... the point was, if Jesus didn't exist (as Plato might not have existed), then your statement is false.

If your statement is false, then the basis of Christianity is one big lie.

That's why the existence of Jesus matters a lot more than the existence of an actual guy named Plato.

Yes, I understand your point. But if Jesus was a myth invented by some common Jewish fisherman who gave up their modest living deciding to disgrace themselves and their families by leaving Judaism to follow a mythical figure, whose religion and behavior was more at odds with the predicted messiah than in keeping with the expectation, create conflicting narratives, paint themselves as clueless at times, hide out in doubt leaving women as the first to believe, but not to be eclipsed by dying for their cause, then what we are left with is something even more unlikely than Jesus didn't live at all.
 
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stevevw

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I agree with the point about Plato but Jesus' Words stand on their own merit as well. Jesus lived a God revealing life. Plato could be said to have lived a philosophically truth revealing life, much of his work and ideas being expressed in those who wrote about him.

One of the complicating and even contaminating problems with the Christian message, doctrine and theology, is that its largely a message about Jesus not of Jesus (Jesus had a gospel long before the cross, he wasn't preaching "Christ and him crucified" obviously). It's one that we also experience second hand in much the same way that we experience Plato second hand in the views of his associates. The New Testament is heavily influenced by the powerful and charismatic personality of Paul. Its important to bear in mind that the 4 gospels were written well after Paul's preaching and influence had begun to be incorporated in the recollection of the meaning of Jesus' teaching and his life.

Matters became further complicated by the desire to interpret Jesus through elements of Judaism as ALL of his apostles were former members of the Jewish faith.
Thats interesting, do you have any suggested reading on this subject that can give some insights into the thinking back then.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Yes, I understand your point. But if Jesus was a myth invented by some common Jewish fisherman who gave up their modest living deciding to disgrace themselves and their families by leaving Judaism to follow a mythical figure, whose religion and behavior was more at odds with the predicted messiah than in keeping with the expectation, create conflicting narratives, paint themselves as clueless at times, hide out in doubt leaving women as the first to believe, but not to be eclipsed by dying for their cause, then what we are left with is something even more unlikely than Jesus didn't live at all.


There's no reason to believe anybody ever did anything like that. If Jesus didn't exist, then he didn't have any apostles either. The whole scenario you brought up wouldn't even be a factor.
 
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stevevw

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There is just to much evidence for Jesus. If we are honest and then we would have to admit the likelihood that Jesus didn't exist is very minute. Even skeptics can come to this conclusion. Just by deduction we can see that the way Jesus is mentioned and even not mentioned shows that there is substance to Him being a real person.
An Atheist Historian Examines the Evidence for Jesus (Part 2 of 2) | Strange Notions
 
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stevevw

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Is there? Such as?

Honestly, while I recognize that I am not an historian, I have significant doubts about the existence of Jesus even as an historical non-divine person.
Mark
Just like a court trial you have to assess all the evidence and that includes personal accounts. Sometimes this is the greatest support especially when no one has any direct evidence in the form of videos or pictures which you can present.

If we were to accept the bible itself then suddenly we have one of the most comprehensive written about Jesus. The things written about all the surrounding aspects such as the places, people, artifacts, lifestyles, even small things like the small detail about items used and descriptions of things can be very accurate. Archeological discoveries have verified a lot of this so we have to say that what is written about the surrounding aspects of Jesus for the times He lived in have to be from people who lived in those times.

The way the stories are written doesn't indicate a myth or something made up. Everything that is written about Jesus is written as though there was an historic person named Jesus. There is a lack of evidence for any mystical Jesus or for any other version of Jesus that would have been something to build a myth on. All we have from supporters and critics is written as though they believed there was a historic Jesus. There were different groups around back then. Some such as the Gnostic branches of Christianity would have loved to have made Jesus into the spiritual and mystical God. They would have grabbed any version of of a non historical spiritual version of Jesus and promoted it. But nothing is mentioned and even they are dealing with an historical fleshly man named Jesus.

Similarly, the memory of an earlier, original Christianity which didn't believe in a historical Jesus would have been a killer argument for the many Jewish and pagan critics of Christianity. Jesus Mythicists claim this mythic Jesus Christianity survived well into the second or even third century. We have orthodox Christian responses to critiques by Jews and pagans from that period, by Justin Martyr, Origen, and Minucius Felix. They try to confront and answer the arguments their critics make about Jesus - that he was a fool, a magician, a bastard son of a Roman soldier, a fraud etc - but none of these apologetic works so much as hint that anyone ever claimed he never existed. If a whole branch of Christianity existed that claimed just this, why did it pass totally unnoticed by these critics? Clearly no such earlier "mythic Jesus" proto-Christianity existed - it is a creation of the modern Jesus Mythicist activists to prop up their theory.

The main reason non-Christian scholars accept that there was a Jewish preacher as the point of origin of the Jesus story is that the stories themselves contain elements that only make sense if they were originally about such a preacher, but which the gospel writers themselves found somewhat awkward. As noted above, far from conforming closely to expectations about the coming Messiah, the Jesus story actually shows many signs of being shoehorned into such expectations and not exactly fitting very well.

There are several other elements in the gospels like this. The Gospels of Luke and Matthew go to great lengths to tell stories which "explain" how Jesus came to be born in Bethlehem despite being from Nazareth, since Micah 5:2 was taken to be a prophecy that the Messiah was to be from Bethlehem. Both gospels, however, tell completely different, totally contradictory and mutually exclusive stories (one is even set ten years after the other) which all but the most conservative Christian scholars acknowledge to be non-historical.

The question then arises: why did they go to this effort? If Jesus existed and was from Nazareth, this makes sense. Clearly some Jews objected to the claim Jesus was the Messiah on the grounds that he was from the insignificant village of Nazareth in Galilee and not from Bethlehem in Judea - John 7:41-42 even depicts some Jews making precisely this objection. So it makes sense that Christian traditions would arise that "explain" how a man known to be a Galilean from Nazareth came to be born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth - thus the contradictory stories in the Gospels of Luke and Matthew that have this as their end.

If, however, there was no historical Jesus then it is very hard to explain why an insignificant town like Nazareth is in the story at all. If Jesus was a purely mythic figure and the stories of his life evolved out of expectations about the Messiah then he would be from Bethlehem, as was expected as a Messiah. So why is Nazareth, a tiny place of no religious significance, in the story? And why all the effort to get Jesus born in Bethlehem but keep Nazareth in the narrative? The only reasonable explanation is that Nazareth is the historical element in these accounts - it is in the story because that is where Jesus was from. A historical Jesus explains the evidence far better than any "mythic" alternative.
An Atheist Historian Examines the Evidence for Jesus (Part 2 of 2) | Strange Notions

So it is the little things like this that make the bible itself more realistic. When you add this to the archeological discoveries and the non biblical support of other historians plus the many people who are claiming to be witnesses and are appealing directly to us that this is the truth you begin to wonder how can this all be made up. Then there are the 2nd generation disciples who were closely associated with the original disciples who also testify the same. You begin to think its a bit to much to start saying this is some sort of elaborate hoax and well orchestrated fraud. This is why most scholars believe that there was a man named Jesus who was a preacher and was crucified by Pontius Pilot. Add to this that there was a big movement around that time especially soon after Jesus was crucified and claimed to have risen from the dead. Many garnered courage and stood for their beliefs and then went of to be martyred themselves. The Christian movement spread fairly quick despite being something the Romans didn't exactly want.
 
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Colter

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Colter

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There's no reason to believe anybody ever did anything like that. If Jesus didn't exist, then he didn't have any apostles either. The whole scenario you brought up wouldn't even be a factor.

Your conspiratorial thinking goes much further than I had realized.
 
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Colter

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Thats interesting, do you have any suggested reading on this subject that can give some insights into the thinking back then.

Using Just the NT itself, there are the red letters of Jesus and the other material about him. The problem with making all the writings "Gods Word" is that it equilibrates everything said. It puts all the material on an equal plain. The words of Paul are given equal weight with the words of Jesus etc.

The next thing I would recommend is the Urantia Book, a massive revelation that occurred in the early 19th century. It will become in effect the next bible going forward.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Watched bits of the Atheist society video, the most exciting thing is the announcement of a bowling night.

Only bits?

They weren't trying to compete with Star Wars, or to appeal to people with short attention spans. Richard Carrier is an historian presenting an historical argument. It's a dry discussion, perhaps, but pertinent to the subject.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Eudaimonist

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Just like a court trial you have to assess all the evidence and that includes personal accounts.

It just sounds like you are quoting your favorite apologist. You haven't tackled any of the arguments in the links I had provided.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Colter

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Only bits?

They weren't trying to compete with Star Wars, or to appeal to people with short attention spans. Richard Carrier is an historian presenting an historical argument. It's a dry discussion, perhaps, but pertinent to the subject.


eudaimonia,

Mark

People of the Atheist belief system talking about other faiths. I'm in the lab, don't have an hour to watch it all, those parts that I did look at I have heard before.
 
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stevevw

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It just sounds like you are quoting your favorite apologist. You haven't tackled any of the arguments in the links I had provided.


eudaimonia,

Mark
Actually if you read the article and checked out the site its from an atheist.
An Atheist Historian Examines the Evidence for Jesus (Part 2 of 2) | Strange Notions

They are all valid and reasonable points that you could apply to any person in history. It seems Jesus is scrutinized more than anyone and the criteria to substantiate Him is raised much higher when compared to a lot of other figures in history. Like I said if we considered that the bible is an ancient book then there is more written about Jesus then just about anyone else. Its just people disqualify a lot because they reject the supernatural aspect and then throw the baby out with the bath water.

I will have to put some time aside to check out the video. But it is long so I will have to be in the mood. But If its anything like the normal objections then I have address these before. The point is regardless of this most scholars acknowledge that there was a man named Jesus.

Another point I would like to make. I hear people make comments on apologists as though as soon as there is an apologist connected with the comments the whole argument is thrown out. Its like they are biased and everything they will say is going to be trying to support what they believe and they have no truth.

At the same time such as with the video you have linked the opposing views are supported by atheists who in this case are belonging to an organized group who are in the business of coming up with arguments against God and that is what they believe. So its a bit like the pot calling the kettle black to me. But either way I believe you should still listen to what they say and see if they have anything valid to say.
 
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