so you know more than the pope?

Meepy · Feb 9, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
I would hope and pray that the Pope and his Denomination would study more on the jewish/hebrew book of Revelation so they will not have to spend so much time defending themselves against the views of some sects/Denoms within Christianity indentifying the Pope/Papacy as being "antichrist" in Revelation.
Just my most humble opinion

http://www.christianforums.com/t6814752-85/#post43249406
Martin Luther identifies the Antichrist over 500 years ago!

I think it was Wycliffe who was the first person who started the whole "Pope is Antichrist" ideal.

Hebrew book of Revelation? I thought the book of Revelation was written in Greek.

Hentenza · Feb 9, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
I would hope and pray that the Pope and his Denomination would study more on the jewish/hebrew book of Revelation so they will not have to spend so much time defending themselves against the views of some sects/Denoms within Christianity indentifying the Pope/Papacy as being "antichrist" in Revelation.
Just my most humble opinion

http://www.christianforums.com/t6814752-85/#post43249406
Martin Luther identifies the Antichrist over 500 years ago!

godisreal36 · Feb 9, 2011

Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. [FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]53[/font] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]54[/font] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Matt 26:52-54 (KJV)

You are correct But my meaning is also still correct. I got only the person wrong.

Wouldn't Peter Also follow the Words of his master? So again my meaning is still correct.

Is it not possible that God wishes the Catholic Church to reform itself so that the Gates of hell will not prevail against his church? Are the sins of the Church the very gates of hell trying its hardest to prevail against His church possibly?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2011

Meepy said:
I think it was Wycliffe who was the first person who started the whole "Pope is Antichrist" ideal.

Hebrew book of Revelation? I thought the book of Revelation was written in Greek.

Reve 9:11 uses both

Reve 9:11 They are having upon of them a King--the Messenger of the Abyss, name to him to Hebrew, Abaddon and in the Greecian/ellhnikh <1673> name he is having Apollyon/apo-lluwn <623>

daydreamergurl15 · Feb 9, 2011

Before I began here is a caution for you:
I am only human so please take time to read the bible to see if what I said is accurate, if it is not and the bible says something that is contrary to what I say, LISTEN TO THE BIBLE, for it is the truth of God's word and disregard what I have said. I will present a lot of scripture, and I will not attempt to interpret it for you but I will try and connect what you have asked me and what scripture says. I'm sorry if this becomes a little overwhelming but I can't answer any of your questions on my own understanding...I however can present the word to you. If I have mislead you or stated something inaccurately, please correct me.

EDIT: I wrote this and realized that it was so long, so I am breaking it up in 3 posts. Hopefully, it's easier to read.

Meepy said:
The bible explains itself...

30,000 denominations later....

Have you ever actually listened to those (insert large number here) denominations? Do you not realize that Catholicism is actually one of those many denominations? One of the reasons of the denominations is because of the way that people interpret scripture (on there own). Some of the splits are because of people's personal opinion that they brought into Christianity.

Like the JW or the Mormon who says they have the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit led them to interpret scripture under the guidelines of Joseph Smith?

Simply because others claim it falsely does not mean that the Holy Spirit does not actually do the interpreting for us. That's why it's good to know what the bible says and then compare it to what man have said. If you actually read some of Smith's writing about doctrine and compare that to the bible, you would not actually believe that the Spirit was interpreting it for Smith because it contradicts the word of God.

And where is it in the bible where it says "I will give you the Holy Spirit so you can interpret scripture"

NOT, "I will give you the Holy Spirit so you can interpret scripture", it says

1 Corinthians 2:6-14
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for
those who love Him."
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

To the Apostles, Christ said that He will send them the Helper so that they will remember what He told them:

John 14:25-26
These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I have said to you.

We are then told what the Holy Spirit job is:

John 16:7-15
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment;
of sin, because they do not believe in Me:
of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
"of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

daydreamergurl15 · Feb 9, 2011

Part 2:

By all means, explain

I do not want to get into the idea that it is me who is shoving knowledge and saying that I know all things in scripture. I've studied scriptures, but I am not as learned as others. I don't know everything in scripture and I never claimed to. What I don't know, I don't force. What I can understand I'll give you scripture of what I know.

who the 'little horn' is in the book of Daniel. Who are the other horns? What does 666 signify? Is the Beast or Dragon an actual beast or dragon? Is 666 Nero's name in greek? How much has already passed in the book of revelation? Or is it all futuristic? Pre trib or post trib, amillenial?

I don't most of those things, however I do know that the Beast/Dragon is a description of Satan. We are told that he was a Cherub in Ezekiel 28, so I can assume that "Beast/Dragon" just like "Murder/Liar" is a description of who he is.

Are the 6 days of creation 24 hour human days? Or are they 6 periods outside human time? Or is it simply a poetic revelation of God's creation that doesn't take into account time?

Not only does Genesis tells us what God created the world, that it took him 6 days to create it, but Moses explained to us that God created the world in six days. (There are many here who understand the root word for "day" in Hebrew. I however do not, so I will not even attempt to prove it that way, however I will use scripture the best I can to connect day to 24 hours).

Before one can talk about "day", it must first be established. God gives us the definition of "Day" and "Night" when He actually created both:

Genesis 1:3-5
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

We are given the definition of day and night and through the creation, God uses this definition to establish which day it is.

"Years" was not yet established on the first day when God started numbering "days." The way God defined "Years" did not yet arrive until the creation of the Sun/Moon on the 4th day.

Genesis 1:14-19
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night, and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth" and it was so, Then God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light form the darkness. And God saw that it was good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

You cannot actually say it took God "years" to create the world when God Himself said it took Him to the evening and morning of which is one day.

Exodus 20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Remember that God is outside of time. If He is telling us "time" then most assuredly realize that it is for our benefit not His.

As for are they "human years", well, I don't know any other years. God doesn't explain to us how He actually view time, so only human years we would actually go by. As for "periods" again, we don't know such a thing, so I'm not sure how we go about proving it.

They say a thousand years to God is a day and a day a thousand years.

Not, "is a day" but "as a day".
Not "they say" but "bible says":

2 Peter 3:8-9
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance.

Are the 6 days 6000 years then?

When it comes to creation: No. God have already established how He uses the word "day". And that day is given for us humans.

Is there a literal 1000 year earthly reign of Jesus Christ or is the thousand years a symbolic number or a symbol of the reigning of the Church?

Again, I don't know.

Is satan bound, or is he not bound yet?

Job 1:6-7
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" So Satan answered the LORD and said, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it."

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same kinds of suffering are being experienced by your brotherhood throughout the world.

He is still roaming around, tempting us. If He was bound up already, this present life would not be so difficult. But Christ said that we must be faithful unto death, the struggles of this life isn't over yet.

daydreamergurl15 · Feb 9, 2011

Part 3:

What about the 144,000? Is there actually 144,000 people who are predestined like the JWs think? is it a symbolic number? why isn't it literal? why isn't it symbolic?

I don't know exactly what the JW mean about 144,000; but alas, I don't need to, to know what God meant by this because we have the scriptures.
So, lets see what these 144,000 people are, shall we?

Revelations 7:4-8 (I will not type 5-8 but you should read it, it's interesting actually)
4"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. one hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:

So, we know that the 144,000 were those sealed from all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Revelations 14:1-5
Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father's name written on their forehead. And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. They sang as if were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, for they are without fault before the throne of God.

I vaguely remembered that the JW says that there will only be 144,000 redeemed on the earth and the use passages like Revelations 7 to prove this. But Revelations 14 gives us an explanation of those 144,000 and as you can see, these were virgins who were redeemed from among men. Here is an example of the bible explaining itself. Now, I don't know if the JW really believe that only 144,000 will be saved, but I know that the belief is not accurate. And fact, I think that belief is somewhat ironic because the same verses in Revelation 7 that the JW use to show that only that many will be saved, the following verses says this:

Revelations 7:9-17
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying:
"Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to be, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God and serve Him day and night in the temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.

Is Beelzebub Satan himself? or a minion of Satan? or just a Pagan idol?

I'm sorry, I don't know which scripture you are referring too.

Since everything is so lock-stock and barrel, you should have no problem answering these questions.

I am not sure where you have come up with the idea that I have everything so "lock-stock and barrel". I also don't understand why you would think I would have no problem answering those questions, I do not have unlimited amount of knowledge. But I do know where I can find the knowledge of God, which is in His word. Those questions you have asked, there are answers in the bible. I don't know where all of them are, but most of the questions you have asked does have a biblical answer.

So your saying you know scripture equal to that of the apostles?

No, I am saying that I know scripture because of the writings of the Apostles and the interpretation through the Holy Spirit.

And with the apostles, much of what they preached was oral, considering the NT wasn't fully promulgated until after 300 A.D.

I do not understand why you think such a thing.
It is the apostles and those who were eye witnesses who wrote the NT. If you read the writings, you'll realize that the author gives you clue on who he is. The Apostle Paul and Peter out right said it was them who write those epistles. The Apostle Paul even went to far as to say that

I, Paul, write this with my own hands..... Philemon 1:19

The bible is dripping with first hand accounts of what is going on. It was them who wrote scripture. Scripture was not written 300 years after.

Now, it might have all been gathered together and bound 300 years later but it most certainly was not written. Those who bound the word 300 years later did not write anything, the scriptures were already written. And as for saying that most of what the Apostles said were oral, no, I'm pretty sure they had some form of paper and ink back then. They most certainly knew how to write and they did so. Scripture is clear about that.

Oral teaching came first, then people like Mark and Luke recorded it. So the apostles were speaking by a special commission directly from the Holy Spirit and to write God breathed inspired scripture.

Luke had first hand account of what he wrote. It was him who went on the missions with Paul. He was around those apostles to know what was going on. Mark (most people think it is John Mark) probably recorded it but he was with Peter, so he most certainly would have known the gospel.

considering God usually sends his message and revelation through men and doesn't drop a book from the sky I would assume what some men say is very important.

I am not saying that what some may say are not important. However we disagree on who those men are in this present age. We know that God sent His message and revelation through certain man because we have scripture to prove so. We know that God elected some to write His scripture because the bible tells us so, but what man say is not what is important but what God said through those men are what is most important.

The hebrews didn't say to Moses "well since your a man, I will not listen to you, I will listen to God directly".

Actually, the Hebrew most certainly did not say "I will listen to God directly". When they were to meet God, they were scared and made Moses go up there and talk to God by himself. But the Israelites are probably not the best example for this...for they even killed the prophets which God have brought to them. But even the Israelites asked for signs and the prophets showed those signs by giving them prophecies. If those prophecies came true, they were pretty well established that they were of God. If those prophecies however were found to be false, the Israelites were not to listen to them, however we know that during the Kings time Israelites started to listen to those false prophets.

If you read the bible you will notice he confers his message mainly through men(prophets, patriarchs, apostles, judges, etc). He does direct divine revelation in some cases, like with Elijah and Moses on the top of Mount Sinai, or Noah and Lot, but those are very rare cases.

I understand that. But through those men they were told to write the scriptures. How do you think we know anything about the God nowadays?

funny how that is exactly what I was saying. Reading the bible in the context of the body of Christians , and more importantly the ancient Father's and councils.

No, the irony is that there was not a council there speaking to the Eunuch. The Eunuch was reading out of Isaiah and Philip came to him and explained it more fully and Philip preached Christ to him, but Philip did so through the Holy Spirit.

I guess the apostles were wrong when they made a consensus on Matthias?? Or made a consensus in the council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts?

When you speak of Matthias, do you mean the casting of lots?

Proverbs 16:33
The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Acts 1:21-26
"Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us to His resurrection." And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

It seems that it wasn't them who decided but that they prayed and the lots told them of God's decision on which of the two should be a witness and be in the ministry of apostleship.

As for the Jerusalem Council, these were chosen men by God. The scriptures were being revealed to them at the time, so if they had any matter that arose, of course they would confer to each other. But for us, now-a-days, we have all the scriptures gathered together in one place. Those scriptures is what determines our doctrine not a consensus. The council came together because of the issue of circumcision, we however should not have that issue because circumcision has been told to us through the Apostle Paul in Romans and Galatians.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2011

Hentenza said:

Art thou implying something

godisreal36 · Feb 9, 2011

godisreal36 said:
Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. [FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]53[/font] Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? [FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]54[/font] But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Matt 26:52-54 (KJV)

You are correct But my meaning is also still correct. I got only the person wrong.

Wouldn't Peter Also follow the Words of his master? So again my meaning is still correct.

Is it not possible that God wishes the Catholic Church to reform itself so that the Gates of hell will not prevail against his church? Are the sins of the Church the very gates of hell trying its hardest to prevail against His church possibly?

How about this? Does anyone have an answer? Reform may be found in changing the old ways of the church that may be false just like the crusades and other things as well are false.

I cannot see peter Going on Holy Crusades or burning witches or not allowing the Holy union of marriage for its priests. Maybe I'm wrong yet it seems wrong for a priest to be forced to not marry if he wants to be a priest. Its Good not to marry for some but not all i think, I'm not sure every leader of the Church needs to do this. I wonder if its just wrong thinking to allow only those who don't marry to serve in high places. Its not my church however, so you decide for your self.

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 9, 2011

This post is for Meepy, Dark_Lite and other Catholics here.

Would you please explain to me why the pope sits on a throne?

I am asking because I saw an article about a little boy who got past Vatican security to see the pope and he was sitting on a throne. I found that most curious and I would like to know (understand) why he does that. I am sincerely asking. Please explain.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2011

DiligentlySeekingGod said:
This post is for Meepy, Dark_Lite and other Catholics here.

Would you please explain to me why the pope sits on a throne?

I am asking because I saw an article about a little boy who got passed Vatican security to see the pope and he was sitting on a throne. I found that most curious and I would like to know (understand) why he does that. I am sincerely asking.

Do you have a link to that article?

sbvd · Feb 9, 2011

godisreal36 said:
How about this? Does anyone have an answer?

I believe there is only one Church Universal, and that Church is on constant call for reformation. That call is God's, calling each one of us to fulfill the Promise through and in His Grace. No church, not even the Church Universal can reform itself, but through God's Grace. God calls every church, group, denomination and individual to constant reformation.

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 9, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
Do you have a link to that article?

You can google it. There are several different news resources carrying the article.

godisreal36 · Feb 9, 2011

Isn't there a scripture referring to a false belief in the last days, a false teaching of forbidding marriage?

I cant remember but it comes to mind. If so, would it apply to the Catholic Priest?

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2011

DiligentlySeekingGod said:
You can google it. There are several different news resources carrying the article.

I can try....I keyed in "pope sitting on throne"

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=pope+sitting+on+throne&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

(THE POPE) - British Pathe

Thought to be Selected Originals from late 1940s material. Rome, Italy. LV Pan, Pope Pius XII walks to throne. LV GV Children in St. Peter's Square waving. LV Across crowd, Pope sitting on throne. GV Little girls in white waving flowers. CU Pope sitting on throne. SV Children in crowd. SV Children in crowd. Little girl hol… (more)

godisreal36 · Feb 9, 2011

In 1 Timothy 4:1-5, Paul warns us of what to expect in the last days of earth's history...

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer

I goggled this btw and these are not my own words, copy paste, I'm just posing the question, let others with wisdom and knowledge explain it to me.

Melethiel · Feb 9, 2011

I would strongly recommend that everyone read Benedict's books Jesus of Nazareth and The Spirit of the Liturgy. Very edifying, and very full of Scripture.

LittleLambofJesus · Feb 9, 2011

Melethiel said:
I would strongly recommend that everyone read Benedict's books Jesus of Nazareth and The Spirit of the Liturgy. Very edifying, and very full of Scripture.

So many books......so little time

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

*SNIP*
..........According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb."

Now, what is meant by this term – THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.
However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death.

Melethiel · Feb 9, 2011

godisreal36 said:
In 1 Timothy 4:1-5, Paul warns us of what to expect in the last days of earth's history...

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer

I goggled this btw and these are not my own words, copy paste, I'm just posing the question, let others with wisdom and knowledge explain it to me.

Holy Matrimony is a Sacrament in the Catholic Church...they're certainly not forbidding marriage. Not even all priests in the Church are expected not to marry - that is only a discipline in the Latin rite; priests in the Byzantine rite, for example, are allowed to marry. It is simply a discipline of the Latin rite priests, which nobody is forcing them into. If they don't want to remain celibate, they don't have to join the priesthood.

simonthezealot · Feb 9, 2011

DiligentlySeekingGod said:
This post is for Meepy, Dark_Lite and other Catholics here.

Would you please explain to me why the pope sits on a throne?

I am asking because I saw an article about a little boy who got past Vatican security to see the pope and he was sitting on a throne. I found that most curious and I would like to know (understand) why he does that. I am sincerely asking. Please explain.

Because he thinks NO he believes he is king of this world.

so you know more than the pope?

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