So with a change in selection pressures, monkeys could give rise to different humans?

[Ophiolite]

No matter the species it is not individuals that evolve, it is populations that evolve.

Yes, I fully understand that Jack, but I am trying to discern if there is a coherent idea under the chaotic posts from Gottservant. My approach is to establish, if possible, the thinking that went into the chosen sentence and, if successful, move on from there.
(Plus, since he said monkeys, plural, he is implicitly talking about populations.)

 

[Gottservant]

I want to work with you for a while to see if we can actually achieve communication, I wish to focus on this single sentence of yours.

What makes you think that some people believe that "monkeys somehow know what they are evolving"?

If you are part way through a process, and that process has fidelity, you are aware of the stage you are up to, relative to the stages that have developed (in principle).

 

[Freodin]

If you are part way through a process, and that process has fidelity, you are aware of the stage you are up to, relative to the stages that have developed (in principle).

No, I don't think so. And, if you consider it just for a moment, you shouldn't either.

The problems here are scale, expectations and experience.

Let's use another "process" as an example: aging.
You are, at any single conscious moment, aware of your physical existence.
You have experience/memory of previous stages of your existence, when you were younger.
You have some, more or less reasonable, expectations about future stages of your existence, based on observations of others.

But this "awareness" is extremely limited, even faulty.

Your memory is not perfect, often it is even wrong. You have a recollection - more of a reconstruction - of how you were in the past... but it isn't an "awareness".

Your understanding of your present stage is limited by the amount of change that you can distinguish. In the time it took for you to read this post, you have aged. I would bet that you are not aware of any difference in age between now and 5 minutes earlier.

You expectations of your future self are necessarily based on external observations. They obviously cannot be based on your own awareness.

So, here we have it: you are "part way through a process", the process "has fidelity"... and your awareness of the stage you are at is extremely limited.

Now that process - "aging" - is a process where you, the individual, are constantly and continuously involved.
But Evolution works differently. Evolution as a process is disconnected from the individual. You have been told that before, often, even in this thread: individuals do not 'evolve' - species/genetic lines do.

So the "previous state" in the process of evolution is not you. It is someone else. An ancestor of yours.
The "future state" in this process is not you either. It is your descendants.

 

[Ophiolite]

If you are part way through a process, and that process has fidelity, you are aware of the stage you are up to, relative to the stages that have developed (in principle).

No, that won't do. You asserted that "some people believe that "monkeys somehow know what they are evolving"?

There may be a scattering of people who believe that, however it is not the belief of any reputable biologist or scientist of any kind. My question is, why did you think that "some people" believed that.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply. I look forward to your answer to the actual question. I repeat it, why do you have this mistaken understanding that "some people believe monkeys somehow know what they are evolving"

 

[Aman777]

The whole thing hinges on whether you are satisfied with what you are already. For example, if selection pressures favoured being human but not super human, but monkeys still became different human beings, those different human beings might develop into super different human beings.

Humans are the descendants of Adam. There is NO way for mindless nature to install Adam's superior intelligence, which is like God's, into Apes. You have inherited Adam's superior intelligence the old fashioned way or you are NOT Human. There is NO other process. The ToE is an easily refuted changeable theory. Gen 3:22

 

[JackRT]

Humans are the descendants of Adam. There is NO way for mindless nature to install Adam's superior intelligence, which is like God's, into Apes. You have inherited Adam's superior intelligence the old fashioned way or you are NOT Human. There is NO other process. The ToE is an easily refuted changeable theory. Gen 3:22

If it is so easily refuted, why is it still going strong after more than 150 years? And why do so many strong Christians support the TOE?

The Clergy Letter - from American Christian clergy – An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science

Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible – the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark – convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as "one theory among others" is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.

*****To date this letter has been signed by over 12,000 Christian and Jewish clergy of just about every church and denomonation. The web site provides a complete listing of these clergy and their churches (look for one near you). In addition they provide access to several dozen sermons on the topic.

http://www.butler.edu/clergyproject/rel_evol_sun.htm

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Humans are the descendants of Adam. There is NO way for mindless nature to install Adam's superior intelligence, which is like God's, into Apes. You have inherited Adam's superior intelligence the old fashioned way or you are NOT Human. There is NO other process. The ToE is an easily refuted changeable theory. Gen 3:22

1. Genesis has been refuted as literal history.
2. Your ridiculous claims have been refuted.
3. ToE has not been refuted.

There was not a single correct statement in your post.

 

[Gottservant]

No, that won't do. You asserted that "some people believe that "monkeys somehow know what they are evolving"?

There may be a scattering of people who believe that, however it is not the belief of any reputable biologist or scientist of any kind. My question is, why did you think that "some people" believed that.

Nevertheless, thank you for your reply. I look forward to your answer to the actual question. I repeat it, why do you have this mistaken understanding that "some people believe monkeys somehow know what they are evolving"

It's just a fact, if you have what survives, and you want something new (regardless), you have to give up what you had - if you give up what you have had and you are human (with the knowledge of good and evil) your only alternative is to believe, that is, in the transference of one property to another, that the preceeding somehow wants it to happen (because if they did not want it to happen, in principle, it wouldn't). Moreover, maintaining this position, that apes can somehow reject what they have been in favour of becoming something better, diminishes the possibility that it is anything other than knowledge you think you have.

 

[Freodin]

It's just a fact, if you have what survives, and you want something new (regardless), you have to give up what you had - if you give up what you have had and you are human (with the knowledge of good and evil) your only alternative is to believe, that is, in the transference of one property to another, that the preceeding somehow wants it to happen (because if they did not want it to happen, in principle, it wouldn't). Moreover, maintaining this position, that apes can somehow reject what they have been in favour of becoming something better, diminishes the possibility that it is anything other than knowledge you think you have.

Err... what?

It is extremely difficult to follow your rambling, convoluted line (?) of thought, and your jumping from one concept to another.

But perhaps you might be able to follow and understand the principle behind evolution, if I tried to lay it out very very simple.

Individual lifeforms can procreate. Produce copies of themselves. This can happen even if the individual lifeform does not "want" or "desire" it.

The produced copies are not identical to their original. This is especially so in the case of sexual reproduction, where the copies are mixtures of their respective parents.

Not every individual is equally good at reproducing. There are a number of factors that can influence which individual gets to reproduce most, or at all.

Individuals that are, for whatever reason, good at reproducing have a higher chance to confer the attributes that made them good at reproducing to their offspring.

The differences/mutations in a copy can influence their ability to reproduce, for the worse, but also for the better.

Individuals die. If they didn't reproduce, their distinct line of descendency dies with them.


That's the gist of it. Very simply put. Nothing about giving up, wanting or rejecting.

 

[Ophiolite]

It's just a fact, if you have what survives, and you want something new (regardless), you have to give up what you had - if you give up what you have had and you are human (with the knowledge of good and evil) your only alternative is to believe, that is, in the transference of one property to another, that the preceeding somehow wants it to happen (because if they did not want it to happen, in principle, it wouldn't). Moreover, maintaining this position, that apes can somehow reject what they have been in favour of becoming something better, diminishes the possibility that it is anything other than knowledge you think you have.

So, your only reason for thinking that some people believe "monkeys somehow know what they are evolving" is that you believe this. Is that correct? Please answer yes, or no.

 

[JackRT]

Evolution is not a conscious process. It is actually a statistical process that has nothing to do with conscious volition.

 

[Aman777]

If it is so easily refuted, why is it still going strong after more than 150 years? And why do so many strong Christians support the TOE?

150 years is not long when weighed against God's Truth, which can only be understood by the people of the last days with their "increased knowledge". Dan 12:4

How do you separate those who have been born again Spiritually, from phonies?

Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[Aman777]

1. Genesis has been refuted as literal history.

False. The religious interpretation of Genesis doesn't agree with history and Scripture agrees that ONLY the people of the last days with "increased knowledge" can understand. Daniel 12:4 God hid His scientific Truth in Genesis. It's easy for evolutionists to realize that ONLY God knew and authored Genesis since NO man of the time could have possibly written of today's discoveries.

2. Your ridiculous claims have been refuted.

Sure and you have copies of them. Don't you? Of course not. Remember that "refuted" means proven WRONG either Scripturally, scientifically, historically or genetically. I have waited on your refutes of these posts for years now. How long does it take you to cut and paste?

3. ToE has not been refuted.

I have since there is NO way for mindless Nature and non-directional mutations to install the intelligence of God into animals. Only Humans (descendants of Adam) have inherited his intelligence which is like God's. Genesis 3:22 Do I have to remind you of the birds and the bees and how it works? I eagerly await your new found process which bypasses inheritance as the only process which can change intelligence level, in a population over time.

There was not a single correct statement in your post.

Then refute just one or everyone will think you cannot. I fear for your reputation. God Bless you

 

[Bungle_Bear]

False. The religious interpretation of Genesis doesn't agree with history and Scripture agrees that ONLY the people of the last days with "increased knowledge" can understand. Daniel 12:4 God hid His scientific Truth in Genesis. It's easy for evolutionists to realize that ONLY God knew and authored Genesis since NO man of the time could have possibly written of today's discoveries.



Sure and you have copies of them. Don't you? Of course not. Remember that "refuted" means proven WRONG either Scripturally, scientifically, historically or genetically. I have waited on your refutes of these posts for years now. How long does it take you to cut and paste?



I have since there is NO way for mindless Nature and non-directional mutations to install the intelligence of God into animals. Only Humans (descendants of Adam) have inherited his intelligence which is like God's. Genesis 3:22 Do I have to remind you of the birds and the bees and how it works? I eagerly await your new found process which bypasses inheritance as the only process which can change intelligence level, in a population over time.



Then refute just one or everyone will think you cannot. I fear for your reputation. God Bless you

Your incessant lying and denial really ought to merit some form of sanction, but for whatever reason the rules apparently allow such tiresome behaviour. Most posters here (including you) know full well that what I wrote is correct. Any newcomers will see soon enough how dishonest your posts are.

Proverbs 12:22

 

[Aman777]

Your incessant lying and denial really ought to merit some form of sanction, but for whatever reason the rules apparently allow such tiresome behaviour.

I'm sorry to see you so frustrated. If you would like to get some relief, just refute my views instead of calling names and making false assumptions. Don't you know that such posts are against TOS?

Most posters here (including you) know full well that what I wrote is correct.

Then produce the evidence which supports your view. Otherwise, you will look like someone who has been soundly defeated. Only the most devout worshipers of the religion of evolution could agree with your views. Were you brain washed as a child?

Any newcomers will see soon enough how dishonest your posts are.

Why, since you obviously are just blowing smoke? I promise you that there are some mods here who will ban you for long periods of time. Please be nice.

22 Lying lips are an abomination to Jehovah; But they that deal truly are His
delight.

Most people have NO idea who Jehovah is. Do you?

 

[Ophiolite]

I'm sorry to see you so frustrated. If you would like to get some relief, just refute my views instead of calling names and making false assumptions. Don't you know that such posts are against TOS?

Your views have been refuted time and time again by several members. The lying referred to by Bungle Bear is your persistent denial of this obvious fact. Apparently persistent lying is acceptable on CF if practised by someone who self identifies as Christian even though several of their beliefs are unknown in any Christian denomination.

For your convenience the Report button can be found below and to the left.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I'm sorry to see you so frustrated. If you would like to get some relief, just refute my views instead of calling names and making false assumptions. Don't you know that such posts are against TOS?

Your arguments have been refuted in every thread in which they appear. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact does not make it go away.

Then produce the evidence which supports your view. Otherwise, you will look like someone who has been soundly defeated. Only the most devout worshipers of the religion of evolution could agree with your views. Were you brain washed as a child?

Calling evolution religion is against the rules.

Why, since you obviously are just blowing smoke? I promise you that there are some mods here who will ban you for long periods of time. Please be nice.

I'll be nice if you are. Stop the dishonest posts and I won't have any reason to call you out for your bad behaviour. It's really down to you.....

22 Lying lips are an abomination to Jehovah; But they that deal truly are His
delight.

Most people have NO idea who Jehovah is. Do you?

Do you understand that Jehovah doesn't like your behaviour?

 

[Gottservant]

Individual lifeforms can procreate. Produce copies of themselves. This can happen even if the individual lifeform does not "want" or "desire" it.

That doesn't follow.

If I have a child out of a desire to be as instinctive as possible, that child will be born with a greater aptitude for "instinct".

You are saying, "there is no instinct, encoded in the DNA" yet every creature born, is born with some kind of instinct.

 

[Gottservant]

So, your only reason for thinking that some people believe "monkeys somehow know what they are evolving" is that you believe this. Is that correct? Please answer yes, or no.

The transference of a belief in knowledge, to the object, as reinforcement, for a proposed theory. Yes.

 

[Gottservant]

Your arguments have been refuted in every thread in which they appear.

If you understood what you were saying, you would have said "your arguments have been contextualized in a way a child could understand - I forgive you, but you are going to have to study what has been said or how or why, before we can go any further"

Actually, that is a good question: how would you explain "Evolution" to a child?