so what's with this notion part ll

WarriorAngel · Mar 1, 2012

benedictaoo said:
WA, I'm really tired of having this conversation with you over and over.

you need to just accept that homosexuals exist and accept them for what they are, homosexuals. .

You insist forcibly that they remain as homosexuals and not humans who are Christian and God centered.

I suggest i dont have the issue - it seems you want them to hold onto labels such as homosexual rather than letting them just be saints.

I am sure as Needing Grace continues he will lose the self identity as anything sexual and find he wants to be known as simply Christian.

Of course i cannot speak for him, and he can disagree with me, thats fine. I dont speak for him, but it is evident he is working towards non-sexuality in God.
JUST as all the Saints.

How often do we look at Saints and wonder - wow what did they do in bed?
We dont.

We look at their journey in and with God and how they lived their lives in an ordered piety without serious sins.

That is how we ought to view everyone...not hold them up because of a sexuality. Or mark them as a certain type of sexual being.
Saints are never remembered for the sexuality....so thats where we are at with this discussion.

Needing_Grace · Mar 1, 2012

WarriorAngel said:
You insist forcibly that they remain as homosexuals and not humans who are Christian and God centered.

I suggest i dont have the issue - it seems you want them to hold onto labels such as homosexual rather than letting them just be saints.

The Church doesn't do this kind of semantic game. She calls things as they are. Homosexual persons, or gay people, feel drawn towards members of the same sex in a sexual way. That is all.

I am sure as Needing Grace continues he will lose the self identity as anything sexual and find he wants to be known as simply Christian.

Question from random person in my life (not just anyone):
"Mr. NeedingGrace, why aren't you married? You're such a nice Christian man and would make a wonderful husband."

STOP

How do I answer that question honestly without bringing up homosexuality and how it's ruined that for me?

Of course i cannot speak for him, and he can disagree with me, thats fine. I dont speak for him, but it is evident he is working towards non-sexuality in God.

Non-sexuality? Are you kidding? God made us male and female, not neuter. No. Sexuality is part of being human. What we DO with it is what matters to God.

My job is simply to obey God in these matters. I'm not going to try to "pray the gay away" because it doesn't WORK. Instead, I pray, "Lord Jesus, have mercy on me and help me with this, PLEASE!"

I'd love for him to take it away because I can't ride the Metro or go to the store or walk down the street without feeling like looking at anyone will lead me to sin. I feel like I have to my eyes to the ground and keep shields up at all times because I might see a dude that is attractive to me.

JUST as all the Saints.

How often do we look at Saints and wonder - wow what did they do in bed?
We dont.

We look at their journey in and with God and how they lived their lives in an ordered piety without serious sins.

And if they had struggles with certain aspects of their sexuality, wouldn't it be instructive to learn how they managed it so we can know that it's possible?

That is how we ought to view everyone...not hold them up because of a sexuality. Or mark them as a certain type of sexual being.

You can't deny that each and every saint, including our Lord and our Lady were all sexual beings because they were each human. Here's what each and every saint, including our Lord and Lady did with their individual sexualities, they used them in ways that were obedient to God. Period.

But never deny that they were each just as sexual in their humanity as you or I.

Saints are never remembered for the sexuality

No?

May I present Exhibit A:

St. Mary Magdalene, said to be a former prostitute.

....so thats where we are at with this discussion.

Mm-kay!

isshinwhat · Mar 1, 2012

You and Baby spend too much wasted time trying to convince gays that they have made up their SSA that a SSA does not really exist- yeah it does, get over it.

I think it is a shame that our culture wants people to who are same sex attracted to define who they are as people based upon that one facet of their life. What other temptation do we self-identify with in such a way? How often do claim self-identity based upon a temptation to drink too much, to look at porn, to procrastinate to the point it hurts our families, to lie, to steal? We don't teach people with other temptations to beat themselves up over their struggles, but we don't teach them the world is a better place because they are tempted to steal, either. It is a temptation that is worse than some and not as bad as others... We should support people in dealing with the temptations without supporting such negative self-identification with them.

isshinwhat · Mar 1, 2012

And if they had struggles with certain aspects of their sexuality, wouldn't it be instructive to learn how they managed it so we can know that it's possible?

Did you ever look into Fr. Seraphim Rose's story?

WarriorAngel · Mar 1, 2012

No Mary Magdelene was called a Saint. Christ didnt call her a former anything... because as scriptures tell us we put on the new man.
That is, we remove ourselves from sin.
BUT take heart - scriptures also say we must drink milk before we eat meat.
IE - baby steps and toddling until we walk in Him in piety.

Granted that might take years and lots of learning in between, but the key is - continuing to walk towards Him because we never become stagnate until or unless we give up out of weakness. Or we cling closer and become stronger.

As we both know the journey from milk and meat is many years.

As for answering the question Just smile and say as a Christian i am not looking for a relationship outside of the Lord.
That is totally honest and it keeps your heart on God.

Also, the more you fret something the more you panic of it - but if you relax and affirm the Our Father in times of trouble... things will calm down. Half of your battle is the anxiety over this and it becomes front and center which will eventually evolve to non sexual once you start on the next journey of this.

My pm box is usually open. If the time comes you would like to talk.

WarriorAngel · Mar 1, 2012

And if they had struggles with certain aspects of their sexuality, wouldn't it be instructive to learn how they managed it so we can know that it's possible?

This is where preservation of the Saints lives, relics and stories are absolutely beneficial to the earthly inhabitants.
Read about their lives, see their struggles and the more you see how they overcame them is yet a lesson that will strengthen you.

And they are cheering you on in this race. Thats the beauty of love that does not end.

benedictaoo · Mar 2, 2012

WarriorAngel said:
You insist forcibly that they remain as homosexuals and not humans who are Christian and God centered.

really? where have I insisted this? where? show me... and excuse me... are they supposed to change and become straight? this is where you lack knowledge and understanding. They can stay gay and that's not a sin- but just like the straight guy whose not married right, they can't have sex. But they can stay gay.

benedictaoo · Mar 2, 2012

isshinwhat said:
I think it is a shame that our culture wants people to who are same sex attracted to define who they are as people based upon that one facet of their life. What other temptation do we self-identify with in such a way? How often do claim self-identity based upon a temptation to drink too much, to look at porn, to procrastinate to the point it hurts our families, to lie, to steal? We don't teach people with other temptations to beat themselves up over their struggles, but we don't teach them the world is a better place because they are tempted to steal, either. It is a temptation that is worse than some and not as bad as others... We should support people in dealing with the temptations without supporting such negative self-identification with them.

But we are a people who are identified by who we are attracted to.

To say our attractions are the same as an external addition isn't correct.

You are attracted to women and you found one you want to be with forever... gays are the same way. Its who they are. But they can't be with anyone forever.

We are never told to deny being straight and we get to be who we are but they don't and this is what they are fighting in the media and on the streets and why they think Christianity is their enemy... because we tell them to deny who they are as if its a sin and the Church tells us its not a sin to be this way- just a sin to act on it.

For the last time, being gay is not a sin- so STOP trying to teach gays they can't be gay- they can- they just can't have sex or a relationship, ever... so now maybe once you realize this, maybe you can have some compassion for their life becuase YOU will never have to deal with something like this... unless someone forces you at the the point of going to hell to like men.

Do u all get it now?

isshinwhat · Mar 2, 2012

Bene, stop talking to me like I'm an idiot kid. My godson, my brother-in-law, struggles with same sex attraction. I have had many late might conversations with the kid (he's 19). He's cried on my shoulder and I have been an open ear many times, and I pray he continues to feel comfortable talking to me throughout his life. I love him and hate to see him struggle.

As for denying who you are, I refuse to identify someone based upon their temptations. No one is gay because they are tempted, no one is an adulterer because they are tempted, no one is a murderer because they are tempted, no one is a drunkard because they are tempted. If we fall, we get up again... Denying ourselves and our disordered passions, it's what we are called to do.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

WarriorAngel · Mar 2, 2012

benedictaoo said:
really? where have I insisted this? where? show me... and excuse me... are they supposed to change and become straight? this is where you lack knowledge and understanding. They can stay gay and that's not a sin- but just like the straight guy whose not married right, they can't have sex. But they can stay gay.

DID anyone say they were or are going to become straight...?
IF they did or were to - it would be through a journey - one in which takes prudence, patience, and practice in all virtues. Thats not a zippity split thing.

Every single time you bring up someone's sexual orientation and mark that as WHO and WHAT they are rather than them being a Christian or struggling to be God centered.

etc etc etc

isshinwhat said:
Bene, stop talking to me like I'm an idiot kid. My godson, my brother-in-law, is gay. I have had many late might conversations with the kid (he's 19). He's cried on my shoulder and I have been an open ear many times, and I pray he continues to feel comfortable talking to me throughout his life. I love him and hate to see him struggle.

As for denying who you are, I refuse to identify someone based upon their temptations. No one is gay because they are tempted, no one is an adulterer because they are tempted, no one is a murderer because they are tempted, no one is a drunkard because they are tempted. If we fall, we get up again... Denying ourselves and our disordered passions, it's what we are called to do.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

WarriorAngel · Mar 2, 2012

benedictaoo said:
But we are a people who are identified by who we are attracted to.

To say our attractions are the same as an external addition isn't correct.

You are attracted to women and you found one you want to be with forever... gays are the same way. Its who they are. But they can't be with anyone forever.

We are never told to deny being straight and we get to be who we are but they don't and this is what they are fighting in the media and on the streets and why they think Christianity is their enemy... because we tell them to deny who they are as if its a sin and the Church tells us its not a sin to be this way- just a sin to act on it.

For the last time, being gay is not a sin- so STOP trying to teach gays they can't be gay- they can- they just can't have sex or a relationship, ever... so now maybe once you realize this, maybe you can have some compassion for their life becuase YOU will never have to deal with something like this... unless someone forces you at the the point of going to hell to like men.

Do u all get it now?

Explain how some - through working at it - through struggling, prayer, time, patience, prudence - became God centered, became fully Christian - and let go of the struggle in identifying themselves as gay - went on to become hetero aroused?

It is unfair to suggest anyone is a sexuality pegged individual anymore than it is unfair to mark someone as a certain sinner after they chose to go out and sin no more.

Matthew was no longer a tax collector - he became an Apostle.
The publicans became disciples.
SEE how the Lord changed who they were?

They no longer identified themselves as what sin they felt attracted to - NO - they identified themselves as a servant of the Lord.

MikeK · Mar 2, 2012

isshinwhat said:
I think it is a shame that our culture wants people to who are same sex attracted to define who they are as people based upon that one facet of their life. What other temptation do we self-identify with in such a way? How often do claim self-identity based upon a temptation to drink too much, to look at porn, to procrastinate to the point it hurts our families, to lie, to steal? We don't teach people with other temptations to beat themselves up over their struggles, but we don't teach them the world is a better place because they are tempted to steal, either. It is a temptation that is worse than some and not as bad as others... We should support people in dealing with the temptations without supporting such negative self-identification with them.

Many alcoholics and drug addicts, even ones who have been sober for decades, self-identify as alcoholics or addicts and find that doing so is an important part of accepting who they, how they are, and how they need to conduct themselves. Nobody should beat themselves up over their struggles, as its counter-productive...but self-identifying as a homosexual, an alcoholic, a sex adict, a kloptomaniac, etc is not something that we should discourage, in my opinion.

WarriorAngel · Mar 2, 2012

Forgot Paul who murdered...who was then called Apostle

Needing_Grace · Mar 2, 2012

isshinwhat said:
Bene, stop talking to me like I'm an idiot kid. My godson, my brother-in-law, struggles with same sex attraction. I have had many late might conversations with the kid (he's 19). He's cried on my shoulder and I have been an open ear many times, and I pray he continues to feel comfortable talking to me throughout his life. I love him and hate to see him struggle.

And he's blessed to have someone there to love him in his point of need.

As for denying who you are, I refuse to identify someone based upon their temptations. No one is gay because they are tempted, no one is an adulterer because they are tempted, no one is a murderer because they are tempted, no one is a drunkard because they are tempted.

A person who is tempted to adultery can still have a vocation to marriage. A person who is tempted to murder can still have a vocation to marriage or the priesthood. A person who likes to drink too much can still have a vocation to marriage or the priesthood.

A person with the gayness can NOT have a vocation to marriage or the priesthood. The Church hath said so. Having the gayness is much more than just "being tempted" in that destroys opportunities for vocation. No priesthood, no marriage, just single life doing...nothing? I don't know.

What part of THIS do people NOT understand?

If we fall, we get up again... Denying ourselves and our disordered passions, it's what we are called to do.

Luke 9:23
And he said to all: If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

For sin and temptation, this is all true. Bully for you for knowing this.

Know, go andtry to learn the rest. Just remember this, your son-in-law share something that you will never, ever understand in a trillion eons, what it's like to have the gayness and be a Catholic at the same time. Unless you experience the tiny box it creates around you firsthand, you can't know. Jesus could, having compressed Himself into a human bodies down to the level of a couple of cells. His world went from infinite to incredibly small, so He understands what it's like to be so limited.

When it comes to the effect this has in the life of a person with the gayness or maybe a disability (that's a wonderful comparison...), not a single one of you straight folks have a inkling of what I'm talking about, so don't even try.

Needing_Grace · Mar 2, 2012

WarriorAngel said:
Explain how some - through working at it - through struggling, prayer, time, patience, prudence - became God centered, became fully Christian - and let go of the struggle in identifying themselves as gay - went on to become hetero aroused?

It is unfair to suggest anyone is a sexuality pegged individual anymore than it is unfair to mark someone as a certain sinner after they chose to go out and sin no more.

Matthew was no longer a tax collector - he became an Apostle.
The publicans became disciples.
SEE how the Lord changed who they were?

They no longer identified themselves as what sin they felt attracted to - NO - they identified themselves as a servant of the Lord.

So, what you're saying is that the gayness was annihilated when I got baptized?

Wow, that was 20+ years ago and I still have the gayness.

isshinwhat · Mar 2, 2012

MikeK said:
Many alcoholics and drug addicts, even ones who have been sober for decades, self-identify as alcoholics or addicts and find that doing so is an important part of accepting who they, how they are, and how they need to conduct themselves. Nobody should beat themselves up over their struggles, as its counter-productive...but self-identifying as a homosexual, an alcoholic, a sex adict, a kloptomaniac, etc is not something that we should discourage, in my opinion.

I think there is a difference in knowing oneself, what sins he is drawn toward, and what situations he should avoid because of that, and not letting go and accepting the forgiveness and healing that Christ gives as though there is no hope. Is a recovering alcoholic still an alcoholic? Is one who has repented of adultery still forced to wear the scarlet letter? I believe at some point we have to embrace our rebirth in Christ and latch onto St. Peter's words on sanctification: we can escape the corruption of the world.

2 Peter 1:3-4:
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

WarriorAngel · Mar 2, 2012

No - your baptism has nothing to do with how you COOPERATE with God's call.
It is in baptism we are part of His Body and we can hear His call - but with free will we are constantly choosing to do His will...

You will one day discover what i am saying. Once you quit panicking and fretting over it.

I do not self identify with any of my past sins...which were many and mortal.
I am now someone attempting to get past my past and work towards one goal - doing His will on earth so i can be near Him for all of eternity.

If i fail, and i do, i pick myself up as quick as i can and go forwards with His sacraments He made for those such occasions.

You can go on and self identify if you like - or you can actually let go and be free. Stop determining who you are by one concept.

Its your free will...so do with it as you please.

WarriorAngel · Mar 2, 2012

isshinwhat said:
I think there is a difference in knowing oneself, what sins he is drawn toward, and what situations he should avoid because of that, and not letting go and accepting the forgiveness and healing that Christ gives as though there is no hope. Is a recovering alcoholic still an alcoholic? Is one who has repented of adultery still forced to wear the scarlet letter? I believe at some point we have to embrace our rebirth in Christ and latch onto St. Peter's words on sanctification: we can escape the corruption of the world.

Excellent verse...

2 Peter 1:3-4:
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature.

IF we cling to the past to our sins - as the Apostles did not - we stiffle our own freedom in God.

isshinwhat · Mar 2, 2012

A person with the gayness can NOT have a vocation to marriage or the priesthood. The Church hath said so. Having the gayness is much more than just "being tempted" in that destroys opportunities for vocation. No priesthood, no marriage, just single life doing...nothing? I don't know.

What part of THIS do people NOT understand?

Please don't take this as me trivializing your struggles, but have you looked at those things you CAN do for the Church? Our choices, temptations, gifts, and crosses all make us more or less suited to particular vocations. There is one out there which God is calling you to, maybe you've already found it, I don't know... But God has obviously given you a compassionate and insightful heart, and I believe He has a place for you to use it.

By the way, did you ever read about Fr. Seraphim Rose?

Needing_Grace · Mar 2, 2012

isshinwhat said:
Please don't take this as me trivializing your struggles, but have you looked at those things you CAN do for the Church?

I'd be pre-screened out of consideration for any sort of ministry.

Perhaps that pittance I throw in the plate and the miniscule prayers I say help in some small way. In the way that a subatomic particle contributes to an atom which contributes to a molecule which contributes to a cell which contributes to an organ which contributes to a body. Not even noticeable.

Our choices, temptations, gifts, and crosses all make us more or less suited to particular vocations. There is one out there which God is calling you to, maybe you've already found it, I don't know... But God has obviously given you a compassionate and insightful heart, and I believe He has a place for you to use it.

I like to tell people about what we believe. I'm passionate about the doctrines of the faith and want to tell people about the wonderful things our faith has, but I'd never be permitted to do any public ministry in the Church. Homos need not apply and all that.

My understanding is that homos are solely responsible for the abuse scandals, so we are now forbidden from any ministry that involves contact with the public in the name of the Church.

By the way, did you ever read about Fr. Seraphim Rose?

Can't say that I have. Never heard of him, is he Catholic? Where is he from? Seraphim isn't a normal human name.

so what's with this notion part ll

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