• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • Christian Forums is looking to bring on new moderators to the CF Staff Team! If you have been an active member of CF for at least three months with 200 posts during that time, you're eligible to apply! This is a great way to give back to CF and keep the forums running smoothly! If you're interested, you can submit your application here!

So what's the difference between So. Baptist and Calvinist?

Status
Not open for further replies.

homewardbound

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2004
605
42
Sweet Home Alabama
✟17,969.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
If this question is answered elsewhere in this forum, please point the way....

I listen to and read sermons delivered by a number of Southern Baptist pastors. Many of them have helped me grow in faith, but I've noticed that many of them are at least four-point Calvinists. I've also seen a number of posts here that indicate there isn't much difference between Calvinism and the doctrine taught from many, if not most, So. Baptist pulpits. Can anyone articulate briefly what the differences are, if any?
 

TimRout

Biblicist
Feb 27, 2008
4,762
221
54
Ontario
✟21,217.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
You are correct in noting that the majority of SBC Pastors are four point Calvinists. If we can believe the January circular from Dallas Theological Seminary, some 30% of their Baptist student body are five point Calvinists -- nearly double the figure from 1995. Though I am a Canadian Baptist, my denomination has close doctrinal ties with the SBC; that said, true southerners should feel free to correct or adjust the following if I've missed the mark.

As you probably know, the difference between a four point and a five point Calvinist, is almost always their disagreement over the atonement. Four pointers usually hold to general atonement -- Christ died for everybody. Five pointers hold to limited atonment -- Christ died for all who will believe -- the elect. There are a growing number of five point Calvinists entering ministry with the SBC, though I do not know the current stats.
 
Upvote 0

LovebirdsFlying

My husband drew this cartoon of me.
Christian Forums Staff
Purple Team - Moderator
Site Supporter
Aug 13, 2007
30,277
4,476
60
Washington (the state)
✟985,865.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
You are correct in noting that the majority of SBC Pastors are four point Calvinists. If we can believe the January circular from Dallas Theological Seminary, some 30% of their Baptist student body are five point Calvinists -- nearly double the figure from 1995. Though I am a Canadian Baptist, my denomination has close doctrinal ties with the SBC; that said, true southerners should feel free to correct or adjust the following if I've missed the mark.

As you probably know, the difference between a four point and a five point Calvinist, is almost always their disagreement over the atonement. Four pointers usually hold to general atonement -- Christ died for everybody. Five pointers hold to limited atonment -- Christ died for all who will believe -- the elect. There are a growing number of five point Calvinists entering ministry with the SBC, though I do not know the current stats.

What if I believe that Christ died for everybody, but not everybody will accept it? This is how I interpret, Many are called but few are chosen. I believe His gift was offered to all the world, but in the end only those who actually extend their hands and accept the gift will receive it.

In short, I don't believe in "you'll go to hell for that." I believe nobody goes to hell for *doing* something. It's because they did NOT accept the gift of salvation which would have rescued them from that fate.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Southern Baptists, have been historically, Calvinistic.

Look at the Confessions of Faith of these churches.

I know this to be true because while in seminary classes, one of the history classes I took was "Southern Baptist Heritage" taught by a man who has his doctrate in Southern Baptist history: Dr. James Willingham, Ph.D, D. Minn.

What we have is this, in the 1950's, through the advancment of Modernism, liberalism crept in the Southern Baptist Seminaries. Golden Gate, Midwestern, New Orleans, Southeastern, Southern and Southwestern.

In 1858, the very first Southern Baptist seminary, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, then in Greenville S.C., adopted the "Abstract of Principles" as the standard by which, all teachers were reqired to teach by. They believed this so much that all teachers were required to sign to it.

If you read it, you will find that it is Calvinistic in its teachings. And it speaks of 5 point Calvinism.

However, with the influx of Liberism, many of the 5 pointers were pushed out of the schools. So that some entirely renounced their Calvinistic roots.

Shocking fdact is, that due to Liberal Modern teachers, in 1978, only 34% of all students entering the Doctrate level at Southern Baptist seminaries even believed in God!

In the 1980's, Conservatives regained control of the SBC and since then, they have been guiding members back to their Calvinistic roots in much opposition to the Liberal crowd.

This is evident by the split in 2000 over the "homosexual" and "women submit" issues in the CoF.

Sothern Baptist and Calvinism are terms that until the 1950's were equal.

It is only recently that Southern Baptists have differinciated themselves from Calvinism.

Strange though, the SBC in 2000 showed a membership that was Calvinistic in their beliefs that equaled to 16,000,000 members.

The SBC is second only to Catholics in America. And they (Southern Baptists) are beginning to come back home to Calvinism.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LiturgyInDMinor

Celtic Rite Old Catholic Church
Feb 20, 2009
4,915
435
✟7,265.00
Faith
Utrecht
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Yep and in fact the original BF&M in 1925(I think) was pretty much the New Hampshire Confession with a few minor changes...and that is calvinist eh. And from what I've been reading out the SBC seminaries...it seems that calvinism is making a MAJOR comeback with our young pastors.

My pastor and I are 5 point calvinist southern baptists and very very glad to be just that. ;)
 
Upvote 0

JohnDB

Regular Member
May 16, 2007
4,256
1,289
nashville
✟61,421.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It used to be three strikes and your out...

Three points of calvinism and you ain't serving here...

These days though the two main issues are I and L. I can't attend a church who promotes these two points...period.
(and yes I am SBC)

T...a minor point of disagreement. Where men may seek to do and be good...their efforts fall mightily short.

U...I didn't do anything to deserve to be called or chosen. Works never got any of us anywhere...except as a result of faith they do seem to strengthen our resolve even more so. But I did no work that acquired the salvation and relationship that I now have with Jesus. I did go looking for Him when He found me...but that is another story for another time.

L...never was a part of Judaism and still isn't to this day. I scratch my head at this one often wondering how on earth these guys to this day buy this one...but then again Bell Bottoms and Mullets were popular too.

I...too many people have run the other way...even when it was clearly and plainly put to them...Sampson made his choices...so did Samuel's Priest's(Eli) kids...

P...(here I tend to be a very poor baptist) Where there does seem to be some that never ever fall away...I do find that the parable of the soils is a much better description than anything. Also the story of the "man born blind"...this story does answer the reason as to why "many are called but few are chosen"...everyone has a role in God's universe...some vessels are simply for a more noble purpose than others. Some are a wine carafe and others are chamber pots.
Who am I to judge another's employee? They obviously are fulfilling that employer's needs at the moment. I can't tell him how to run his business and I shouldn't either...he won't accept my advice with a smile...for good reason...it is his business.
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It used to be three strikes and your out...

Three points of calvinism and you ain't serving here...

These days though the two main issues are I and L. I can't attend a church who promotes these two points...period.
(and yes I am SBC)

T...a minor point of disagreement. Where men may seek to do and be good...their efforts fall mightily short.

U...I didn't do anything to deserve to be called or chosen. Works never got any of us anywhere...except as a result of faith they do seem to strengthen our resolve even more so. But I did no work that acquired the salvation and relationship that I now have with Jesus. I did go looking for Him when He found me...but that is another story for another time.

L...never was a part of Judaism and still isn't to this day. I scratch my head at this one often wondering how on earth these guys to this day buy this one...but then again Bell Bottoms and Mullets were popular too.

I...too many people have run the other way...even when it was clearly and plainly put to them...Sampson made his choices...so did Samuel's Priest's(Eli) kids...

P...(here I tend to be a very poor baptist) Where there does seem to be some that never ever fall away...I do find that the parable of the soils is a much better description than anything. Also the story of the "man born blind"...this story does answer the reason as to why "many are called but few are chosen"...everyone has a role in God's universe...some vessels are simply for a more noble purpose than others. Some are a wine carafe and others are chamber pots.
Who am I to judge another's employee? They obviously are fulfilling that employer's needs at the moment. I can't tell him how to run his business and I shouldn't either...he won't accept my advice with a smile...for good reason...it is his business.

What is you're view of John Bunyan and CH Spurgeon?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Lets see here, some high profile Baptists who were Calvinist:

Rodger Williams, Issac Backus, John Bunyun, John Owen, Shubel Sterns, Benjamin Keach, John Gill, Andrew Fuller, Dan Taylor, William Carey, Adroniram Judson, John Leyland, Richard Furman, Francis Wayland, John L. Dagg, James P. Boyce, Basil Manly Jr., J. R. Graves, John A Broadus, Charles H. Spurgeon, John Cliford, August Hopkins Strong, B.H. Carroll, Harry Emerson Fosdick, just to name a few from history.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DD2008
Upvote 0

JohnDB

Regular Member
May 16, 2007
4,256
1,289
nashville
✟61,421.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Very high profile Baptist men. Both Calvinists. :)

Ummm...isn't that kind of like saying: "Max Lucado is a calvinstic Southern Baptist because his books are sold in every lifeway store"?

For those that don't know...Max Lucado is now a "reformed" Church of Christ. He has separated himself from the Church of Christ so that his books can sell better.
(I still find glaring errors in them and don't believe that they belong in Lifeway but that again is another discussion)
 
Upvote 0

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Ummm...isn't that kind of like saying: "Max Lucado is a calvinstic Southern Baptist because his books are sold in every lifeway store"?

For those that don't know...Max Lucado is now a "reformed" Church of Christ. He has separated himself from the Church of Christ so that his books can sell better.
(I still find glaring errors in them and don't believe that they belong in Lifeway but that again is another discussion)

No. Both men were influential members of Baptist Churches. Spurgeon was the most infuential of his day actually.
 
Upvote 0

spiersdodgerblue

Senior Veteran
Jan 31, 2007
2,701
230
✟26,439.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ummm...isn't that kind of like saying: "Max Lucado is a calvinstic Southern Baptist because his books are sold in every lifeway store"?

For those that don't know...Max Lucado is now a "reformed" Church of Christ. He has separated himself from the Church of Christ so that his books can sell better.
(I still find glaring errors in them and don't believe that they belong in Lifeway but that again is another discussion)
Is this the same church he has separated him self from?

"Max is the Minister of Writing and Preaching at Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, TX."

Cause if it is, he need to change his site, cause I just copied this from it. :confused:
 
Upvote 0

JohnDB

Regular Member
May 16, 2007
4,256
1,289
nashville
✟61,421.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You haven't been around many Church of Christ members now have you?

LOL...I almost flipped when they said that they would include everyone...(very un Church of christ-like) But they have yet to include musical instruments during every service yet...but they are a shifting now aren't they?

It is amazing what money will do to someone who has a set of beliefs...Max sold his...like many others have...except they sold theirs for much less. At least max has something temporary to hang on to for doing so...

But even still....the analogy of Max being a Baptist stll is on solid rock at this moment.

ROFL...and so is what I have said.
 
Upvote 0

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Site Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
151,019
19,448
USA
✟1,998,007.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
If this question is answered elsewhere in this forum, please point the way....

I listen to and read sermons delivered by a number of Southern Baptist pastors. Many of them have helped me grow in faith, but I've noticed that many of them are at least four-point Calvinists. I've also seen a number of posts here that indicate there isn't much difference between Calvinism and the doctrine taught from many, if not most, So. Baptist pulpits. Can anyone articulate briefly what the differences are, if any?

Many So. Baptists are Calvinists but many are not Calvinist.

Those who are not do not view the total depravity of man the same as a Calvinist or limited atonement or irresistible grace the same way.
 
Upvote 0

homewardbound

Senior Member
Sep 8, 2004
605
42
Sweet Home Alabama
✟17,969.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
These days though the two main issues are I and L. I can't attend a church who promotes these two points...period.


Those are the two points I can't wrap my head around, either. I have a few problems with U and P, too, just to a lesser degree.

So, getting back (sort of) to the original topic, it sounds like SBC is heavily influenced by Calvinism. So are Presbyterians. Aside from the obvious issue of infant baptism, and the type of worship service, what's the real difference between Southern Baptists and Presbyterians?

By the way, I'm not trying to pose a loaded question here. If there was a Christian Denominations for Dummies, I'd buy it.
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Those are the two points I can't wrap my head around, either. I have a few problems with U and P, too, just to a lesser degree.

So, getting back (sort of) to the original topic, it sounds like SBC is heavily influenced by Calvinism. So are Presbyterians. Aside from the obvious issue of infant baptism, and the type of worship service, what's the real difference between Southern Baptists and Presbyterians?

By the way, I'm not trying to pose a loaded question here. If there was a Christian Denominations for Dummies, I'd buy it.

Presbyterians usually have a more "ordered" type of service.

One thing you won't hear in a Presbyterian church is the shouts from the "Amen" or "Hallelujah" corner. :D

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
Upvote 0

AMR

Presbyterian (PCA) - Bona Fide Reformed
Jun 19, 2009
6,717
913
Chandler, Arizona
Visit site
✟219,428.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
One thing you won't hear in a Presbyterian church is the shouts from the "Amen" or "Hallelujah" corner. :D
Nor are you likely to hear a pulpit call. ;)

I'm just sayin'!

AMR
 
Upvote 0

DeaconDean

γέγονα χαλκὸς, κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον
Jul 19, 2005
22,188
2,677
62
Gastonia N.C. (Piedmont of N.C.)
✟107,834.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0

spiersdodgerblue

Senior Veteran
Jan 31, 2007
2,701
230
✟26,439.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You haven't been around many Church of Christ members now have you?

LOL...I almost flipped when they said that they would include everyone...(very un Church of christ-like) But they have yet to include musical instruments during every service yet...but they are a shifting now aren't they?

It is amazing what money will do to someone who has a set of beliefs...Max sold his...(Never read from you that you knew Max, seeing how your judging him an all...as if you knew his heart.) like many others have...except they sold theirs for much less. At least max has something temporary to hang on to for doing so...

But even still....the analogy of Max being a Baptist stll is on solid rock at this moment.

ROFL...and so is what I have said.
Do you know how loud your ego sounds in this post? Nothing Christ like there! That's a shame I was just asking a question.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.