So - suicide

[PreachersWife2004]

I often wondered what would've happened if Job had committed suicide.

 

[seeingeyes]

I often wondered what would've happened if Job had committed suicide.

Would have been a much shorter book.

 

[mkgal1]

I often wondered what would've happened if Job had committed suicide.

As far as I know, Job didn't have a mental illness.

 

[bluegreysky]

Life as we know it would be completely altered, just like when Marty encountered the teenaged version of his mom in 1955 and she fell for him and he had to get her to go with the man who would be his dad at the enchantment under the sea dance and he punched that Biff guy and then he got back in the delorean and went back to 1985 and everything was completely different. Except in that case it was better.
It would probably be worse if we lost a biblical hero that theologians have hailed as the most long-suffering man ever for hundreds of years

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I guess what bothers me about the use of "inner demons" is that, since this has been brought to the forefront, I've read blogs about how people need to "rely on God".....or "pray for God to help" (as if that hasn't been done) or other things along those lines. It just seems to bring it too close to, "a REAL Christian wouldn't struggle with this".....and that's wrong. You know what I mean?

I think that's where it's key to break down the "it feels like" vs the "it is." Like yesterday, I ate a lot of fatty foods for the first time in weeks and my stomach was killing me. I said "I feel like I have an alien trying to get out of my stomach" (a la "Alien," "Aliens," etc etc). To say that's what it feels like doesn't mean that anybody thought that's what the actual problem is, it just is drawing a line to comparison on something that's a common-ground identifier.

I don't think it's unfair or inaccurate to describe battling depression, manic depression, or bipolar disorder as if one were battling inner demons. I think a lot of people understand that as a common-ground identifier/metaphor for a hard-to-articulate feeling. I think the problem is when people take the metaphor used to try and explain the feeling so they can give relevance or urgency to how they feel and interpret it as the literal. Like it's actually a demon and what you need is prayer, Jesus, repentance, etc.

That said, when we deal with emotion, a lot of times people throw around the "rely on Jesus" coping solution because for them, or for lighter emotional issues, sometimes that is enough. With true mental illnesses like depression, bipolar disorder, etc, people don't understand that "pray for Jesus to fix it" is as helpful a treatment plan as it is to go to somebody with a gunshot wound and say "pray that Jesus will fix it." For depression, it seems like it's offered as the primary solution to the problem and that should do it. I've yet to hear anybody say to a gunshot victim "pray to Jesus and that's enough... You don't need a hospital" despite the fact that's what they are essentially saying to the person with depression.

I guess what I'm saying that the mentioning of how it feels like your wrestling inner demons is the problem, it's a general lack of understanding to the seriousness of something like depression.

no i was not addressing your post at all, or any other posts in this thread, and i sincerely appologize if anything i posted led you to believe that i was.

I was merely relating my feelings about my own family member's decisions and actions relating to the experience of actively participating in the assisted suicide of a family member, and then later requesting others to participate in their own assisted suicide. And no, i'm not refering to comfort care. in both cases it went far beyond that point.

I got it, I'm sorry for misinterpreting. My mistake wholly.

the thing is that in this life there are very few people who are not connected in some way to another human being.
From the time before we are born till ater we die, we are connected to someone.

Whether it be thru a family relation, thru friendship, being employed or being an employer, thru commerce, writing, reading, or just listening our senses connect us to this world. and all the activity that happens around us affects us and is in turn being affected by our being here.

we think, we speak, we hold opinions, we bring joy, we laugh, we cry, but we are participants in each moment of life. and in that participation however great or small it may be, the lives of others are changed irrevocably because we are alive.

To die without compleating a life is to die too soon.

The problem comes up in that people who are depressed can't be accused of contemplating life. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite... Anybody I've met who's dealing with depression are among the most contemplative people I know. All they do is contemplate their life... The problem is, they contemplate and they come up with a void. They think they don't bring joy, they don't feel joy, their opinions are valueless, the people who love them are hurt by their existing, that any impact they have is negligible, replaceable, unimportant, or actually actively detrimental. Hearing people talk after unsuccessful attempts, a ton say that their motivation was not just stopping their unrelenting pain, but to stop or avoid causing that unrelenting pain to others. Their broken self-perception due to the depression has them convinced as much as you or are convinced the sky is blue that the loss of them is a temporary pain by family as opposed to the lifelong pain of managing them.

I think that particular comparison is a bit of a stretch. A person who dies from cancer can have any number of actual causes of death (depending on which one comes first). And a suicide can have any number of actual causes (overdose, hanging, gunshot). But depression isn't inherently lethal. Cancer is. Suicide is. So those are sufficiently explanatory. But saying that someone died of depression would be confusing. I'm thinking especially of children, who might hear an explanation like that and not fully grasp the fact that depression itself isn't lethal, but rather inspired the suicide. You wouldn't want kids, with a rudimentary understanding of what depression is, to have a bad day and worry that it might actually kill them. You know?

But when Robin died, the first statement released, before we knew anything about anything, was from his family rep who said that his death was sudden and he'd been battling severe depression of late. The followup statement said that he was fighting depression and he lost his battle. I think we all knew what that meant before the word "suicide" was even officially used. While the actual, literal cause of death was suicide, I don't think there was a one of us out there who heard "he lost his long battle with severe depression" and wondered what that meant. We knew. And I think that was a respectful way of acknowledging that yes, he made this choice, but yes, there was a mental illness factor which was really the overriding reason behind the death. Meaning, if he didn't have this illness, he probably wouldn't have done what he did.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

That's exactly what I was thinking (but in terms of Robin Williams, who was 63 years old). If there were a way out of being bi-polar....I'm sure he would have sought that out.

Very true. And even people who do seek out help for bipolar disorder are told that there may be no real point. I remember finally hearing "you have Bipolar II" and instantly there was a wave of relief over, finally, having a reason for why I was feeling like I did. If we have a reason, we have a treatment, right?

Wrong.

The next words out of my doctor's mouth was "Unfortunately, the road to find treatment is a long one with a lot of setbacks. Nothing works for everybody. What's next is a lot of trial-and-error. Some medications will make you feel better but the side effects are too much. Some will make you feel worse than you do now. Some will work but you'll still need to get things adjusted. They may stop working well and we need to repeat the process all over again. You need to understand that this diagnosis just means we have a grasp on the problem. The solution could still be awhile away."

Talk about kick-in-the-gut to be told that here's the problem, but we don't really know what to do from here. And worse, being told that things could be made worse by things disguised as solutions. It's utterly terrifying. That's before you start seeing the price tags of the meds, the doctors visits, the therapy... The meds insurance won't always cover because some of the meds are off-label uses of meds for other problems (like epilepsy). The therapy that your insurance covers for only 4 appointments a year and you're told to go twice a week... Then insurance agrees you have a mental illness (how big of them) and agrees to approve you for more therapy... And by more, they mean only 10 additional sessions.

Then you're left with this terrifying diagnosis of a mental illness that leaves you lucid but with a disjointed outlook on your life and feelings, an uncertain treatment plan, plus the addition of stressors that are linked as the largest mental strain on people who have no mental illness... Money and health. You kind of wonder what the point of getting help was because before you reached out, those weren't problems you struggled with.

To use the cancer comparison again, when people are diagnosed with cancer and are given a treatment plan of "we're not sure what to do next," people have telethons. People film themselves pouring ice water over their heads and donate money.

I got diagnosed with bipolar disorder, the third medically recognized mental illness ever in the history of medicine (as in they determined the sustained clinical existence of two other mental illnesses, then bipolar disorder), making it one of the oldest known mental disorders of all time in organized medicine... And my treatment plan included copious uses of the term "trial-and-error." And a referal to somebody experienced in treating mental illnesses who also used the terms "trial-and-error," "no set treatment pattern," and "worse before better."

 

[DZoolander]

The problem comes up in that people who are depressed can't be accused of contemplating life. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite... Anybody I've met who's dealing with depression are among the most contemplative people I know. All they do is contemplate their life... The problem is, they contemplate and they come up with a void. They think they don't bring joy, they don't feel joy, their opinions are valueless, the people who love them are hurt by their existing, that any impact they have is negligible, replaceable, unimportant, or actually actively detrimental. Hearing people talk after unsuccessful attempts, a ton say that their motivation was not just stopping their unrelenting pain, but to stop or avoid causing that unrelenting pain to others. Their broken self-perception due to the depression has them convinced as much as you or are convinced the sky is blue that the loss of them is a temporary pain by family as opposed to the lifelong pain of managing them.

The thing that's interesting about this - I was having a conversation with my wife about something similar to this subject the other day. We were discussing "contemplating life" - and how one thing can beget another. Don't get me wrong - I think a healthy amount of introspection is needed in life - but at the same time I think one needs to be cautious about how they frame their thoughts - because one thing can beget another and you can end up creating the very kinds of mental frameworks that you're hoping to avoid.

Like, say you're faced with a situation, and you think you ought to feel a certain way, but you in fact don't. Or say you actually have thoughts that you think are aberrations - thoughts that you should not have. There are one of two choices I think you can make. You can try to figure out what's "wrong with you" that made you think those thoughts - or you can accept them and move on.

Some people tend to be the kind that wonder why they're thinking those things - and I think that can be destructive in the long run (if obsessed over). Choosing to try and pick your psyche apart in order to figure out why you had an aberrant thought run through your head does nothing more (IMHO) than perpetuate that thought and keep it in the forefront. Rarely do thoughts just "go away" (at least in my experience). So the more you keep it in mind - the more you wonder why it isn't changing (and wonder what's wrong with you that you continue having them) - the more it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy (I think).

...and in that I think it's a mistake to pick yourself apart too much.

Heck - I have aberrant thoughts that I can't give a rational explanation to. Case in point - I remember when my daughter was born. The instant she came out of the womb - and cried - what was the first emotion I felt? it wasn't fulfillment. It wasn't ecstasy or joy. I felt a degree of resentment. I don't know why. The same daughter that literally is the light/love of my life right now had that initial reaction within me.

But - I don't try to figure out why. I learned a long time ago that it does me no favors to try and fit every thought that goes through my head into a framework of understanding. Some thoughts are aberrant...and the only thing I can attribute it to is that I have a degree of darkness in me...and I'm ok with that.

It's kind of like that meme you see floating around FB every now and then about "every one of us has two wolves inside of us...one dark...one light. Which one will grow strong? The one you feed." Well, I'm ok with the fact there's a darkness in me. I just don't feed it...and as such...whatever thoughts run through my head based upon whatever...by not focusing on them they always have turned out to be fleeting and transitory.

So - again to what I said before - while I do appreciate a good amount of naval gazing and self-reflection...I think people need to be careful not to get too wrapped up in it trying to make sense of everything. Sometimes the unwillingness to accept "bad" things or wondering why they're there/not going away only serves to perpetuate them.

Ya know?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

As far as I know, Job didn't have a mental illness.

I'm not sure anyone could go through what he did and NOT develop one.

My point still stands. Job was put through SO MUCH in his life. His friends even encouraged to turn away from God. He never did. I'm sure he had doubts. I'm sure he asked why God was "picking" on him.

Our God is a God of comfort. I don't think suicide an automatic ticket to Hell, but I get really upset when suicide is condoned. Ultimately, I put those souls in the hands of God, because only He will know what was in their hearts.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

Job is a hero because he endured. The same could be said about him that I've heard said about Columbus. "If he had given up, nobody would have blamed him. But who would have remembered him?"

It's difficult calls like suicide that make me glad I'm not God, and glad He is the judge, not me. I don't believe His judgment is absolutely black-and-white, but not knowing where His gray areas are, I wouldn't presume to speak for Him. He knows details we do not. For example, we say we don't know what is going on in their minds. He does.

The Biblical suicide I'm thinking of is Judas Iscariot. He could have repented the same as Peter did. The Lord would have gladly restored Him too, the same as He restored Peter. Instead, Judas chose suicide while Peter chose confession, repentance, and forgiveness. Does that mean Judas is in hell? Not my call to make, so I won't even guess.

Now, the topic of this thread being the effect on family--the disciples were a family. Jesus said they were His mother and brothers. How do you suppose Judas's suicide affected them afterward?

 

[mkgal1]

I'm not sure anyone could go through what he did and NOT develop one.

My point still stands. Job was put through SO MUCH in his life. His friends even encouraged to turn away from God. He never did. I'm sure he had doubts. I'm sure he asked why God was "picking" on him.

Our God is a God of comfort. Suicide is never NOT sinful. I don't think it's an automatic ticket to Hell, but I get really upset when suicide is condoned. Ultimately, I put those souls in the hands of God, because only He will know what was in their hearts.

No one is condoning (or promoting) suicide.

There's a difference between situational depression (reactive) and clinical depression. With clinical depression---it doesn't really matter what the life circumstances are---the depression doesn't "go away" in happy times or less stressful times (because that's not what it's based on).

From the mod hat post:

There should be no discussion on if suicide is a sin

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Job is a hero because he endured. The same could be said about him that I've heard said about Columbus. "If he had given up, nobody would have blamed him. But who would have remembered him?"

It's difficult calls like suicide that make me glad I'm not God, and glad He is the judge, not me. I don't believe His judgment is absolutely black-and-white, but not knowing where His gray areas are, I wouldn't presume to speak for Him. He knows details we do not. For example, we say we don't know what is going on in their minds. He does.

The Biblical suicide I'm thinking of is Judas Iscariot. He could have repented the same as Peter did. The Lord would have gladly restored Him too, the same as He restored Peter. Instead, Judas chose suicide while Peter chose confession, repentance, and forgiveness. Does that mean Judas is in hell? Not my call to make, so I won't even guess.

Now, the topic of this thread being the effect on family--the disciples were a family. Jesus said they were His mother and brothers. How do you suppose Judas's suicide affected them afterward?

Well said. I do think the Bible references Judas in hell but I can't think of the passage at the moment.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

No one is condoning (or promoting) suicide.

I was referring more to the media than anything.

There's a difference between situational depression (reactive) and clinical depression. With clinical depression---it doesn't really matter what the life circumstances are---the depression doesn't "go away" in happy times or less stressful times (because that's not what it's based on).

From the mod hat post:

I missed the mod hat. Interesting.

I've lost too many friends and loved ones to suicide to be unbiased about this subject.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

There's a difference between situational depression (reactive) and clinical depression. With clinical depression---it doesn't really matter what the life circumstances are---the depression doesn't "go away" in happy times or less stressful times (because that's not what it's based on).

True. I've been on vacation in Hawaii, of all places, but in the depths of a gloomy depression I couldn't pull myself out of. My daughter was there too, and similarly depressed. Reason being, it was purely brain chemistry and nothing to do with circumstances.

Want to annoy me real fast? Ask me, "What do you have to be depressed about?" That's like asking me what I'm diabetic about. It doesn't have to be *about* something. It's a doggone illness.

I've also heard asthma used as an analogy. Saying to people with depression that they have "nothing to be depressed about" because they have this and that blessing in their lives is like saying to someone in the throes of an asthma attack, "What do you mean, you can't breathe? You have all this air around you!"

Yeah, just because the air is there doesn't mean the person who is suffering can breathe that air, because asthma is an *illness.* Similarly, the person with depression may be very loved, but not be able to feel it.

My husband is only just now beginning to grasp that there is brain chemistry involved. He has a tendency to think it's related to sunlight, but that applies only to one form of depression, Seasonal Affective Disorder. Although lack of adequate sunlight can trigger depression, I was in Hawaii and still had a problem. Sometimes there is just no fix. It's going to happen even under the best of circumstances.

My cousin came to this realization when she herself had to see a doctor and start taking medicine. She knows there was a lot of trauma and upheaval in MY life, but HERS was much more stable and loving. It threw her for a loop when she needed help. She was puzzled. "Those things happened to my cousins, not to me. Why am *I* messed up?"

Why? Because it's biochemical and hereditary, not a result of bad upbringing. The part of my illness that's related to upbringing is PTSD, not depression or anxiety. I would have had depression and anxiety even with the best childhood in the world.

 

[mkgal1]

I think that asthma analogy is great.

Since the Bible was brought up....I can think of other examples (Judges 9:54; 2 Samuel 17:23; 1 Kings 16:15-20; 1 Samuel 31:2-5) but they don't seem to have anything to mental illness (and that's an important distinction).