So - suicide

[DZoolander]

A friend of mine on FB posted this article...

Robin Williams's death: a reminder that suicide and depression are not selfish | Dean Burnett | Science | theguardian.com

...which basically is an article explaining how suicide is not a selfish act. Long story short - the friend of mine who posted this - her husband killed himself a few years ago. So - I'm not gonna touch the subject with a ten foot pole on there. But - it is a conversation I'm interested in having - so y'all are the wonderful beneficiaries of my desire...lol

The article attempts to address various arguments that are made about how suicide is a selfish act (a view that I pretty much share)...and I think it does a reasonable job of addressing THOSE arguments. But - the thing is - my argument about why it's a selfish act is a bit different - and I'm curious about your thoughts.

My feeling is that suicide is a selfish act because your life doesn't belong to you. You have obligations to others.

In my view - once I voluntarily took on a wife - a certain percentage of my "ownership" of my life went away. Once I voluntarily began having children - there went the rest. Regardless of how I may feel - I have an obligation to my children to persist and push through whatever it may be. My duty is now to the future, and to ensure that I have produced the most un-encumbered and non-screwed up people within my power.

...and by within my power...I mean within what I can physically do.

Regardless of how you feel - every action is a deliberate choice. Robin Williams could very well not have hung himself. It may have sucked immensely from his point of view, and been personally unbearable to do so, but he could be breathing today if he had made the physical choice not to hang himself. My feeling is that he owed that to his children. He owed it to them to put on a brave face until the day that he naturally died...regardless of the feelings going on.

Despite how "confused" people may argue those people may be - the simple fact of the matter is that with the millions of suicides out there - there ain't a one where the family/children walked away going "Wow - that sure was a relief and I'm glad to be rid of that burdensome person." Maybe that's what ought to be told to those that think that they're doing their loved ones a "favor" by doing that.

No - you really aren't. No family member as ever felt that - and there's been a ton of suicides in the past. You ain't gonna be the first one to get that reaction. You aren't unique. You aren't special in that way. Suck it up. Trust me - you'll die someday. You'll get what you want. Just don't screw everyone else up in the process.

...

Thoughts?

 

[DZoolander]

It absolutely is a choice. It isn't like you just wake up one day and by happenstance find yourself on the end of a noose. Or..."Whoops - how'd that razor blade find itself slicing down my veins?" or..."Wow - how'd that gun end up in my mouth?" It's an act of will.

...and I suppose people might argue that the person doing it believes somehow they're doing others a favor...etc... which...I just have a hard time understanding. Where, in all of God's green earth, have you ever seen a suicide reacted to as if it was a blessing by those that had to endure it? Why would you think that somehow your case would be different?

For me - it all has to do with voluntarily assumed obligations. Go out and google "Zelda Williams". That's his kid. In my mind - she trumps any feelings he may have had. My kids trump any feelings I may have. I brought them into this world. That was my choice. They have many years to go. I certainly owe it to them to choose a path that won't screw them up.

Ya know?

 

[JCLover779]

In my mind - she trumps any feelings he may have had. My kids trump any feelings I may have. I brought them into this world. That was my choice. They have many years to go. I certainly owe it to them to choose a path that won't screw them up.

This is absolutely the reason that I stay in the marriage I am in. I'm not even close to being suicidal, but this thinking extends to other areas in how we see people and our role, like you said in your OP.

I don't get what I want most out of my marriage. But I owe my life to my kids. I struggle a bit more with that kind of marital devotion to my husband, and in regards to my faith, but it IS still there. I believe that they (kids and husband) are my responsibility. So despite how I feel (and I HAVE begged God to just take me now, if this is all there is for me, though I had absolutely NO desire to end my life - just that feeling of there really is not a lot of hope that this marriage will provide what I wish I could have...and therefore what's the point as far as meaning to ME...it's kind of wasting my time and my life for what I can get out of it...), I have to CHOOSE to live and give them everything that I have and CAN give.

For me, I went through months where those feeling were a multiple-times-a-day cry to God. (I still go through them, but not multiple times a day.) And I felt that He answered me with "Wait and see what I am going to do." I kept "hearing" that. (I'm not pentacostal, BTW.) He hasn't given me the marriage fulfillment that I wanted - none of that has changed. But He has given me some other amazing things and people to fill my time, as well as the peace and ability to continue on, while I am waiting on Him.

Wait on The Lord, and He shall renew your strength. He has given me what I need to act on this verse.

 

[mkgal1]

I agree with this blog (below)--a person that's in that darkness doesn't see things in a logical way. They see themselves as a burden....a drain on the ones that love them....and believe that everyone would be better off without them (and that's horrible):

When things are bad, I don’t care that people love me. All I can see is that I’m a burden, that everything I have ever done is wrong, and that these good people who love me are wrong as well. At my lowest, love cannot save me. Hope, prayers, daily affirmations—none of these can save me.~Robin Williams and mental illness: When depression is breaking news.

and this one:

the depressed Christian: why the dark night is no measure of your soul - Megan Tietz :: SortaCrunchy

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I'm not sure where I read this yesterday, because my own head was in a fog. Someone did a poetic analogy about a man whose hand was stuck over hot coals, and he was being burned and blistered. Wasn't it selfish of him to pull his hand away from the heat by any means he could? How cowardly of him not to continue facing the pain!

That's not to say suicide is the right answer. It never is. But we don't know what others are being burned with, so it is not our place to call another person selfish or cowardly for resorting to an act of desperation.

When I am in the deepest pits of depression, all I can see is that I am a burden to my family and that I cause them endless problems. If I end up in the hospital, that only gives my husband bills to pay, and he complains about it. So, during those times when my brain isn't working correctly because I am depressed, yes, I may very well tell myself he would be better off without me and that I am doing him a favor.

 

[ValleyGal]

Imo, this discussion could be a slippery slope. After all, if your argument is that your life is not your own, that argument should be applied to other things as well, such as abortion. If there is a living being (even though it is dependent on a "mature" living being, shouldn't the mature living being's life then not be only her own, but also that of the other living being within her? I'm not sure the logic sticks - depending on how you feel about applying it to other areas as well.

It is easy to call suicide "selfish" from the brain of a normal, functioning and healthy pov. It's quite another to understand suicide from the desperation of someone who has ideation. Mr. Williams had depression. Did you know that one of the side effects of antidepressants is actually suicidal ideation/attempts? I'm not saying he was on them, but there are a few things that the general public might not really understand about suicide.

I struggled with one of my "kids" (on my caseload in my CP days) - she made the choice to do it. She stepped in front of a train. Try to put yourself into her shoes. What could possibly motivate you to step out in front of a train? You'd have to be pretty desperate, imo. And she probably was not thinking about things like "I wonder how this is going to affect the engineer, or my foster parents, or my sibling, or...." But I knew her to love her foster family and her sibling dearly, and the only thing that could drive her to step in front of an oncoming train would be sheer desperation. She was by no means a selfish person, although her actions in that time were utter desperation and self-focused (introspect).

Suicide is a complicated thing, and I'm not sure that making a sweeping generalization that it's selfish is really helpful to either those who do it or those who survive it, although that might be a factor in the "anger" phase of grief (how could you DO this, you selfish &*%^?). I would rather extend compassion and understanding rather than a judgement of selfishness.

 

[JCLover779]

That's not to say suicide is the right answer. It never is. But we don't know what others are being burned with, so it is not our place to call another person selfish or cowardly for resorting to an act of desperation.

Nicely put. For me, I think suicide is one of those areas that I will always stand in bewilderment over. I just can't know all the factors that went into the act.

My favorite thing from him that went around on Facebook in the last year was that quote (loosely remembered here) "I used to think the worst thing was being alone. Now I know it's being with someone who makes you feel all alone." What happened yesterday makes that quote all the more meaningful, probably even more hurtful to his family. I related a lot to the feeling "all alone" in my marriage when I read it.

 

[JCLover779]

I *do* think it is selfish - from the point of it being focused on self to the exclusion of others. It doesn't mean someone who calls it selfish doesn't also have the capacity to feel compassion.

 

[ValleyGal]

I'm just thinking about Mr. Williams' family. If they were to come here and read this thread, would they be offended that we are in essence, saying he was simply being selfish? I think so. At least, I would be. Imo, rather than suggesting it's selfish, it might help to understand it on an individual level instead.

 

[mkgal1]

That's not to say suicide is the right answer. It never is. But we don't know what others are being burned with, so it is not our place to call another person selfish or cowardly for resorting to an act of desperation.

I agree. Another problem that I think can arise from this (the idea that it's about selfishness/cowardice) is it adds to the self-loathing that often comes with depression. IOW.....it piles on MORE reason to feel helpless....hopeless....worthless....and that can push a person into isolation even more.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I *do* think it is selfish - from the point of it being focused on self to the exclusion of others. It doesn't mean someone who calls it selfish doesn't also have the capacity to feel compassion.

But it isn't "to the exclusion of others," if the delusional thinking is, "Look how much trouble I cause them. They'd be better off without me." It's warped, but it isn't selfish, because the delusion is telling you it's for their benefit. That's how depression works.

Mr. Williams was probably blind to the fact that this would hurt so many people. He was probably telling himself that his illness and his addictions cause his family more trouble than he is worth, and they would do better without having to deal with it. Yes, he was very wrong in that thinking. I, like so many others, wish he hadn't done it. But I'm not going to call him selfish for it, or cowardly either.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I agree. Another problem that I think can arise from this (the idea that it's about selfishness/cowardice) is it adds to the self-loathing that often comes with depression. IOW.....it piles on MORE reason to feel helpless....hopeless....worthless....and that can push a person into isolation even more.

Let me share a personal episode from when my oldest daughter was a baby. I was in an abusive marriage. My now ex-husband had just gotten through abusing me, telling me at length as he often did what a horrible wife, mother, cook, and housekeeper I was. Sick of it, and down on myself now too, I made a suicide attempt. My ex called for help. The police arrived. One of them noticed my daughter.

"Is that your baby?"

"Yes."

"And you want to kill yourself? How selfish of you!" He went on and on about what a rotten person I was. Then the ambulance arrived, and the police officer said to the EMT, "She has some problems, and decided to take the coward's way out."

To which the EMT replied sarcastically, "Oh, smart."

Then when I answered, "Yes, I know, I'm a horrible person, and that's why I deserve to die," everybody shut up with their barbs.

Point being, shaming about being selfish and cowardly is the last thing a person already in that state needs.

 

[WolfGate]

I think calling it selfish or cowardly is uninformed judgement. We've been dealing with the aftermath for 4 months now and that aftermath has been almost totally consuming. At first, it seemed like it came out of the blue, but now that we have learned what had been going on, I can grasp how he came to the (incorrect) conclusion that suicide was the only way out of the desperation and shame. Selfish by definition indicates doing something for personal gain or pleasure. To me that is clearly not the case in suicide. Cowardly would indicate taking the easy way out - while from what we've learned in suicide the person often sees it as the only way out.

 

[ValleyGal]

Well said, Wolfgate. Especially:

Selfish by definition indicates doing something for personal gain or pleasure. To me that is clearly not the case in suicide. Cowardly would indicate taking the easy way out - while from what we've learned in suicide the person often sees it as the only way out.

 

[JCLover779]

All humans are selfish - it is part of our nature. To a point, there is an element of necessity in that.

There is also a difference in calling the act selfish vs describing the person's sole attribute as selfish.

I think "selfish" in this case, becomes one of those "politically correct" words that some outspoken people (in their understandable distress) try to make off-limits.

Is suicide always a matter of thinking others will be better off without that person there? No. Might not even be a factor. Sometimes, it might be a matter of feeling that a person cannot go on, what is the point, can't endure it any more. Sometimes it's other things.

One of my husband's college friends was diagnosed with Manic-Depressive disorder. While they were working it out (at the onset of her first major episode), she often had thoughts that she should just drive her car off a bridge. There was no emotion in it. She wasn't being selfish in this case, she wasn't being sad, there was no emotion in it at all - it was simply a "fact" that popped into her delusional head, a statement of something she should do and that she agreed with in those moments. The *only* thing that kept her from doing this, on *multiple* occasions was her kids and the responsibility she had to them. She is one more story. There are lots of reasons for suicide, just like there are lots of people in this world. And using "selfish" sometimes applies. Sometimes it doesn't.

As to Mr. William's family, we don't know whether they think what he did was selfish or not.

It sounds like he felt very alone in this world. Maybe someone close to him made him feel that way. Maybe it was an imagined thing. We don't know how he got to that feeling.

One of my kids used to tell me in kindergarten that he didn't have any friends. He's a likeable guy. One day I took him to school after he had been gone for several days, and he had so many classmates calling out his name, excited to see him... He looked at me and said "I guess I DID have friends after all." People liked him, and had clearly missed him, but his perception was that they didn't really notice he was there. This is the thinking he was born with, and it will always be there. Fortunately, many, many years later, he remembers the incident well. We discuss how his view is sometimes different from reality and he tries to take that into account.

 

[akmom]

I don't think it's selfish. If you have dependent children, then yes, your life really isn't your own and you aren't entitled to that escape. But that's about as far as I can agree. Adult children and other family members aren't especially dependent on you. They should be able to cope with your suicide like they would cope with your death.

I think the question is, how much anguish is a person obligated to endure? Is a person required to stay alive as long as possible under all circumstances? Would you feel differently about a person who was in a constant state of physical pain, for which modern medicine had no treatment?

He was suffering. I agree that there is a time to suffer. I think there are responsibilities that rank higher than relief from suffering. Raising children is one of them. Another may be a person wounded in war, who continues to fight despite lethal injuries, in order to help his comrades. But after kids are grown and independent, or after a battlefield is desolate and abandoned, what is achieved by suffering? A person who doesn't want to suffer any more should be able to make that choice. It's kind of absurd, I think, to expect someone to suffer indefinitely just to delay their relatives the grief of a loved one's death. Especially when that is something they will have to experience someday anyway. (Unless you're suggesting that faking one's accidental death is somehow superior to blatant suicide.)

I agree that suicide is a choice, and that there are plenty of reasons to tough it out, but to say that suicide is always a selfish and unacceptable choice? I think that's kind of an unreasonable stance. Everyone dies. Not everyone has to suffer greatly. I can think of plenty of situations I'd rather not live through.

 

[JCLover779]

self·ish adjective \ˈsel-fish\
: having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people


Selfish - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

The base definition does not include anything about "personal gain". That is one of the sub-definitions, or the full definitions. But when people are thinking of the meaning of "selfish" and calling suicide selfish, they are thinking of the above, the first definition that pulls up. People who object to calling suicide selfish on the grounds of it not being to that person's advantage, may be thinking of one of the sub-definitions. How we view the word colors how we accept it, in addition to our personal experience with it.

Calling suicide (in general) selfish does not also mean you are saying that person was horrible, self-centered or otherwise thoughtless. It means that, at that point in the person's life, they couldn't focus much further than how hard things were in their own life.

In regards to the OP, committing suicide is not thinking of the family that is left behind and the responsibility owed that family - or at least thinking of self to the extent that personal needs trump all others. It does match the Merriam-Webster definition above.

 

[mkgal1]

self·ish adjective \ˈsel-fish\
: having or showing concern only for yourself and not for the needs or feelings of other people

But....what is being said is that in the mind of a bi-polar and/or depressed person (that's suicidal)....their thoughts often *are* with the needs and feelings of others (the ones they love)---it's just that it's distorted thoughts (like, "they'll be so much better off without the burden I'm placing upon them").

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

But....what is being said is that in the mind of a bi-polar and/or depressed person (that's suicidal)....their thoughts often *are* with the needs and feelings of others (the ones they love)---it's just that it's distorted thoughts (like, "they'll be so much better off without the burden I'm placing upon them").

Exactly. It cannot be called selfish if the thoughts are that it is for the benefit of others who would be better off without them. The thoughts are not accurate. The thoughts are delusions. But the person thinking them IS considering what he/she believes are the needs of the other people, however incorrectly. It can be called warped, twisted, sick, and wrong, but not selfish.

 

[ValleyGal]

Mr. Williams' children are adults, so perhaps he did not have any sense of duty to them anymore. I know someone who was cut out of a parent's will for the simple fact that the parent knew the adult child could look after herself if the parent died. So there is no more sense of duty or responsibility.

I do think suicide is a lot more complicated than boiling it down to "it's selfish." I do think it's a rush to judgement if people do not know the facts surrounding it.