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brightmorningstar

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To Wiccan_Child,
You can support that. I did it in my previous post, for goodness' sake. The text states that a large number of people ("all the people of Sodom") gathered around Lot's house. That, is a mob.
The text does not say mob, mob is your translation, the Bible translations say men. If the text wanted to say mob it could have used quahal as in Eziekiel 16:40 “They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords” as company is translated mob in the NIV. I can see why you want to use mob as if one says mob it sounds like it isn’t homosexual practice. But as the text says men we know it is. And you have made the same illogical claim as others, Lot offers virgin daughters instead of the wicked act intended against the men.


It says nothing of the sort. It's written in Hebrew, not English.
It says exactly of the sort, the Bible quotes I have given are the English translations.



No. Even the most homophobic scholar agrees that it was a mob that gathered around Lot's house, and that the two people in his house were strangers.
But the revelation is not that the men were a mob, but that they were men wanting sex with men, Furthermore, Lot offers his virgin daughters who have not known men! Do you think virgin women are those who have not yet had sex or those who have not yet been gang raped by men and women?


It was a mob: a mob is a large group of belligerent people. They were strangers: I don't really know how to make this more explicit. You know what a stranger is, right?
Yes but do you know what men are is the question as the text says men.


But if the words 'mob' and 'stranger' scare you, we can replace them with 'Anshei ha'ir, anshei S'dom' and 'Angels', respectively.
Obviously men scares you so but despite the fact that this is the word of God to me, the text says men.
J


I'm a boy . There's a little symbol and everything.
My apologies, you need to come up with the evidence.

 
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brightmorningstar

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To Andreusz,
So _why_ is it a wicked act? I haven't seen anyone give me a staisfactory answer to this question yet. Consensual homosexual sex doesn't harm anyone, and it's not unnatural, as it occurs in nature. So what is God's reason for condemning it?
Well your view isnt God's reason, God's reasons given are that its against what God has created man and woman for. ie Genesis 2, Matthew 19, Romans 1 etc. Cosensual sex outside of a man/woman marriage harms the person themsleves 1 Corinthians 6.
 
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brightmorningstar

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All thats happening here is arguments about what the Bible says. Some of you dont believe one passage of scripture because you dont believe what other passages say.
You are not willing to address the consequences of what the texts actaully say because you neither want to or feel they are right. Alas thats not belief, anyone can come to believe in the Bible once they have adpated it to be suitable enough for them. They crucified Jesus Christ for who He said He was and what he taught, not what He did.
 
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Andreusz

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To Andreusz,
Well your view isnt God's reason, God's reasons given are that its against what God has created man and woman for. ie Genesis 2, Matthew 19, Romans 1 etc. Cosensual sex outside of a man/woman marriage harms the person themsleves 1 Corinthians 6.


Do you know, that is the first coherent answer that I have ever received to this question from anyone?
 
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brightmorningstar

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All are free to believe the Biblical testimony or not, what I think the problem is mostly here is people simply dont want the Biblical testimony to say what it says because they like sex more. But 1 Corinthians 6 " 18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Should make it quite evident that this applies to heterosexuals as much as homosexuals. This means many heterosexuals are seeking to honour God much less than some homosexuals, nor is it about being perfect and never falling short. God isnt against homosexuals therfore any more than he is agianst heterosexuals. But heterosexuals and homosexuals may be against God's purposes.
 
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brightmorningstar

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In fact there are homosexuals who have never had sex in better shape than me who committed adultery before I was married (or a Christian) The underlying issue here is not about homosexuality at all, non-believing homosexuals and non-Christians such as Wiccan_child, dont have to accept the Biblical testimony, its their choice and freedom not to, nor the basis that it is the word of God.
The problem is those in the church who wish to change the Bible becuase they dont believe/like what it says or are willing to accept it. Thats what most of the debates end up with.
 
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Andreusz

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God isnt against homosexuals therfore any more than he is agianst heterosexuals.

Isn't it a bit unfair that heterosexuals can express their sexual desires in marriage, but homosexuals have to suppress theirs entirely in order to live a Christian life?
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Andreusz,
Isn't it a bit unfair that heterosexuals can express their sexual desires in marriage, but homosexuals have to suppress theirs entirely in order to live a Christian life?
Yes and no.
Some heterosexuals dont know whether they will ever be married, if they cant find a partner they will remain unable to express their sexual desires as you put it.
That Jesus Christ's teaching is sacrifical love means whatever cross one bears,it will be a cross. Mother Teresa didnt find this a barrier to her celibate life of sacrifice to help the poor.
The incident with the rich man in the Bible where he had complied with the law but lacked one thing, his wealth was non-negociable, Jesus told him to sell everything, he went away sad and Jesus said it was hard for the wealthy to enter the Kingdom.

For most of us living a self-less life for Jesus rather than for ourselves is a constant battle, and this is a frequent theme dealt with in the NT, particulalry by Paul. I dont think the desire for sexual fulfillment is something that overules everything else.
 
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tulc

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Wiccan_Child said:
I'm a boy . There's a little symbol and everything.

brightmorningstar said:
My apologies, you need to come up with the evidence.

uhmmm...what? :sorry:
tulc(hopes these are two separate things) :cool:
 
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Wiccan_Child

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The text does not say mob,
Correct. The text describes a mob.

mob is your translation, the Bible translations say men.
Some do. Others do not. Which ones are right?

If the text wanted to say mob it could have used quahal as in Eziekiel 16:40 “They shall also bring up a company against thee, and they shall stone thee with stones, and thrust thee through with their swords” as company is translated mob in the NIV.
...
Seriously?

Your own quote shows that the word 'quahal' can be translated any number of ways. A 'company' and a 'mob' are two different things (the former implies a cohesive military group, the latter a gaggle of belligerents).

A group of people with semi-hostile intent is a mob. That's a simple fact. If you don't like the word, we can use another word. I'm not really bothered: what we call the group of people is irrelevant.

I can see why you want to use mob as if one says mob it sounds like it isn’t homosexual practice.
What? How on Earth does it stop being 'homosexual practice' if we call the group of people a mob? Like I have said a number of times now (and I grow weary of repeating myself): I don't care. I don't care what we call them. Call them a 'murder of crows' or a 'bookshelf', if it makes you feel better.

This line of inquiry is getting tiresome. Why are you so hung up on the word 'mob'?

But as the text says men we know it is.

Except it doesn't.

And you have made the same illogical claim as others, Lot offers virgin daughters instead of the wicked act intended against the men.
Indeed. But what was wicked? Two men were having consensual intercourse? The mob - sorry, 'pride of lions' - (gang) raping Lot's guests? The gross inhospitality

It says exactly of the sort, the Bible quotes I have given are the English translations.
Exactly: they are attempts at translating the text. They are not excerpts from the text itself. And given the linguistic chasm between modern English and ancient Hebrew, ambiguous phrases and bygone idioms are going to bugger up any translation attempt. You have no way of knowing whether the translation you picked (NIV, KJV, YLT, etc) is at all accurate. Indeed, in this example alone, I have shown that a key phrase (ד טֶרֶם, יִשְׁכָּבוּ, וְאַנְשֵׁי הָעִיר אַנְשֵׁי סְדֹם נָסַבּוּ עַל-הַבַּיִת, מִנַּעַר וְעַד-זָקֵן: כָּל-הָעָם, מִקָּצֶה) can be translated in two subtly different ways, each of which radically alters the moral of the story. Moreover, even if we accurately translate the story, we are still left with the crux of the issue: what, exactly, was Lot condemning? You have given us absolutely no reason to believe that Lot wasn't condemning the inhospitality about to be shown to the guests.

But the revelation is not that the men were a mob, but that they were men wanting sex with men,
No, that's just how you translated the text.

Furthermore, Lot offers his virgin daughters who have not known men! Do you think virgin women are those who have not yet had sex or those who have not yet been gang raped by men and women?
The former. The daughters were virgins, what's your point?

Yes but do you know what men are is the question as the text says men.

Obviously men scares you so but despite the fact that this is the word of God to me, the text says men.
You keep saying that. Where, exactly, does the text say 'men'? The Hebrew language doesn't use Latin characters, so I find that a bit of a stretch, even by you.

My apologies, you need to come up with the evidence.
Of my sex? Sorry, but I don't know how to convince you of that.
 
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Polycarp_fan

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Exactly: they are attempts at translating the text. They are not excerpts from the text itself. And given the linguistic chasm between modern English and ancient Hebrew, ambiguous phrases and bygone idioms are going to bugger up any translation attempt. You have no way of knowing whether the translation you picked (NIV, KJV, YLT, etc) is at all accurate. Indeed, in this example alone, I have shown that a key phrase (ד טֶרֶם, יִשְׁכָּבוּ, וְאַנְשֵׁי הָעִיר אַנְשֵׁי סְדֹם נָסַבּוּ עַל-הַבַּיִת, מִנַּעַר וְעַד-זָקֵן: כָּל-הָעָם, מִקָּצֶה) can be translated in two subtly different ways, each of which radically alters the moral of the story. Moreover, even if we accurately translate the story, we are still left with the crux of the issue: what, exactly, was Lot condemning? You have given us absolutely no reason to believe that Lot wasn't condemning the inhospitality about to be shown to the guests.

Then please if you will, translate any hebrew into english that we find in the biblical writings that exist in there most recent copies, where same-gender sex acts are promoted for the believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to engage in.

(And Jesus, was referred to by the New Testament writers as that God.)

Please don't spin off into the deity of Christ issue, but please address my request if you will.

Where, even in the hebrew, is there a promoting of same-gender sex acts? Or support for those that choose to engage in this form of sexual behavior? In the original text.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Wiccan_Child
Correct. The text describes a mob.
Yes I agree, but is says men. The reason one would describe the men as a mob is because of their intentions.

Some do. Others do not. Which ones are right?
As I asked before which translations say mob? Otherwise no they don’t.
Your own quote shows that the word 'quahal' can be translated any number of ways.
So you don’t agree with that translation either? I suggest you write and publish your own Bible and then we can continue.

But as the text says men we know it is.

Except it doesn't.
Except it does as I showed from several translations.

Indeed. But what was wicked?
What it says was wicked is what is wicked.
Two men were having consensual intercourse? The mob - sorry, 'pride of lions' - (gang) raping Lot's guests? The gross inhospitality
no, men wanting sex with men.

Exactly: they are attempts at translating the text. They are not excerpts from the text itself.
Not entirely, words can be translated which are accurate.

You have given us absolutely no reason to believe that Lot wasn't condemning the inhospitality about to be shown to the guests.
As I have shown the Biblical translations I cited have appreciated all the context, your ideas don’t as each one falls flat. If Lot was condemning inhospitality what is the point of offering virgin daughters? That’s how we know the word translated men, is men. Your arguments are without any credibility as though the Bible translations are all wrong. What are your credentials for Hebrew?

No, that's just how you translated the text.
No that’s how most people translate it as that’s what it clearly and obviously says. The men, both young and old asked for the men to be sent out so that can know them carnally.
The former. The daughters were virgins, what's your point?
So my point is so why have you been saying rape instead of sex?
You keep saying that. Where, exactly, does the text say 'men'? The Hebrew language doesn't use Latin characters, so I find that a bit of a stretch, even by you.
I didn’t cite the Hebrew I cited the English translation. Would you like to debate in Hebrew?
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Wiccan_Child,

Polycarp fan said:
Then please if you will, translate any hebrew into english that we find in the biblical writings that exist in there most recent copies, where same-gender sex acts are promoted for the believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to engage in.
Yes please I also would like to see this.
 
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tulc

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uhmmm so what word that describes "all the men/people in Sodom surrounding your house asking to have sex with the two men in your house and then threatening you when you ask them not to do that" would you like us to use? :scratch:
tulc(willing to work on this) :)
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Then please if you will, translate any hebrew into english that we find in the biblical writings that exist in there most recent copies, where same-gender sex acts are promoted for the believers in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to engage in.

(And Jesus, was referred to by the New Testament writers as that God.)

Please don't spin off into the deity of Christ issue, but please address my request if you will.

Where, even in the hebrew, is there a promoting of same-gender sex acts? Or support for those that choose to engage in this form of sexual behavior? In the original text.
I know of none. I don't think I alluded to one in my post; I was only commenting on the difficulty and uncertainty inherent in translating ancient Hebrew into modern English. I believe the story of Jonathan and David in 1 & 2 Samuel is the closest the Bible comes to saying "Gay is OK", or something thereabouts.

But my argument in this thread is that the story told in Genesis 19 has nothing to do with homosexuality (or the condemnation thereof). I'm not sure where you're going with this, Polycarp_fan.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yes I agree, but is says men.

No. It talks of a group of people, but there are no clues as to the gender of the group.

The reason one would describe the men as a mob is because of their intentions.

As I've said, if you don't like the word 'mob', don't use it.

As I asked before which translations say mob? Otherwise no they don’t.

I was resp
onding to your "the Bible translations say men" claim.

So you don’t agree with that translation either?

At a cursory glance, changing the word from 'company' to 'mob' doesn't seem to affect the context, so I'm not bothered by it. Similarly, the choice between 'mob' and 'group of people' doesn't seem to change the context, so neither am I bothered by that.
However, the choice between 'all the men of Sodom' and 'all the people of Sodom' does affect the context, and thus I am bothered by it.

I suggest you write and publish your own Bible and then we can continue.

Why? I am neither a Christian nor a scholar of ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek. I'm simply pointing out the uncertainty inherent in such a translation attempt. You are acting as if the NIV is the One True Bible, superior to even the original texts... reminds me of someone back in Crevo...

But as the text says men we know it is.
The text says "Anshei ha'ir, anshei S'dom", the translation of which yields two different phrases: one encompassing all the men, one encompassing all the people (men, women, and children). My question remains: how do you know how to translate that verse? You are adamant that the verse refers to men, but I've seen no justification for this.

What it says was wicked is what is wicked.

It doesn't say anything was wicked, directly. Lot simply says "Don't do that, it is wicked". What is the 'it' to which he is referring?

no, men wanting sex with men.

And how do you know this? The text does not say this, so how did you come to this conclusion?

Not entirely, words can be translated which are accurate.

Indeed, but the point is that we don't know which translation is accurate. Without consulting with the author, the best indicator is other authored texts, and context. However, neither help us: there are no contextual clues as to how "
Anshei ha'ir, anshei S'dom" should be translated.

That fact may be useful in and of itself: it may be that the gender of the group of people was irrelevant to the story.

If Lot was condemning inhospitality what is the point of offering virgin daughters?

To stop the group of people from being inhospitable :scratch:. Having sex with the guests would be inhospitable, so Lot offered his virgin daughters to try and stop that from happening.

No that’s how most people translate it as that’s what it clearly and obviously says. The men, both young and old asked for the men to be sent out so that can know them carnally.

Where does it say carnally? Show me the evidence!!!11one


So my point is so why have you been saying rape instead of sex?

Because I didn't think it was important. You claim Genesis 19 is a story condemning same-sex sex, and I claim it is not. Consent is not an issue, so I am using 'rape' and 'sex' interchangeably.

Or is this another word that offends you? Perhaps we should use words that describe their skin colour?

I didn’t cite the Hebrew I cited the English translation. Would you like to debate in Hebrew?
I would like to debate the Hebrew, but unfortunately neither of us are fluent. My point, thus far, is that you have no justification for claiming that the group of people surrounding Lot's house were all male, and thus your 'Genesis 19 condemns homosexuality' claim (or whatever it was) is baseless.
 
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brightmorningstar

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To Wiccan_Child,
Firstly in response to Polycarp fan’s question, could you translate the Hebrew please to show us from 1 and 2 Samuel what leads you to think gay is ok. We know you don’t like the Bible translations but your opinions are just mere disbelief unless you can show us what is behind your reasoning.

No. It talks of a group of people, but there are no clues as to the gender of the group.
Yes it says men as shown. Here is one example again.

But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
It says men so we can assume the gender of the group is men. So don’t tell me you don’t think men is a clue to the gender.
Why? I am neither a Christian nor a scholar of ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek.
Then don’t disagree with the Bible translations if you don’t know what you are talking about and cant give any alternative versions
Because I didn't think it was important. You claim Genesis 19 is a story condemning same-sex sex, and I claim it is not.
Wrong. Most people believe Genesis 19 condemns same-sex sex, I agree you don’t. Your opinion is contrary to the majority and the experts, all I am doing is showing why the majority and the experts agree this.
:)
 
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BigBadWlf

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To tulc,
Why are ypou trying for it not to say what it says? Even if it said rape, it says men raping men is wicked but offers men to rape women instead of the wicked men raping men act. So the implication is not the rape that’s wicked but the homosexual element. We have been through this already. The Bible is correct and so is mainstream Christian belief, Genesis 19 implicates homosexual practice as wicked.

I don’t want to use the word I think best describes the men, I want to use what the word of God says., men.
The bible has only one problem with heterosexual rape and that is when the woman raped belongs to another man. Biblically rape is a crime of property not of sexuality or a crime against a person.

The rape of women and girls is biblically accepted and even encouraged.
Judges 21:10-24
Numbers 31:7-18
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:23-29
Judges 5:30
 
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