So Many Questions......

[LibertyChic]

Please forgive me if I'm asking questions that have already been covered. If they have, in detail, then I am more than happy to search out those threads.

Also, if you read my profile, you will get a little background on me. I am more than happy to answer any personal questions anyone might have.

I'm at a sort of "spiritual crisis" in my life. I have come to realize that the church, and it's teachings, have been twisted through the centuries which means that pretty much everything I've been taught is a lie. What started out as an innocent journey to research the roots of my Christianity has become a quest for the truth regarding whether Jesus (Yeshuah) really is the Messiah that was prophesied in the Tanach.

With that HUGELY broader-than-the-grande-canyon question, I will try to narrow it down to a few specific, albeit random, questions below. For the sake of "proof" and since the Tanach is the one set of scriptures that I know both MJ and Rabbinical Jews believe to be from G-d, I would appreciate all references to scripture being from these scriptures only.

Here we go:

Why is the basis for the entire Nativity story rooted in Astrology?

Hosea 13:4 states, "There is no Savior besides Me." Is the Messiah not meant to be a savior and if not, then what is his role?

I've heard of "two messiahs." What does this mean and can you please provide scripture to back this?

Lineage is shown throughout scripture, as being through the father. Why is it, then, that I've always heard that one's "Jewishness" depends on whether your mother is Jewish or not? (Believe it or not, this is a question relating to Yeshua)

I'm finding less and less proof for a trinity. How does all this work together, then, with Yeshua being the Messiah and the Son of G-d? Is He or is He not G-d?

And on probably an unrelated note:

Referring to Daniel 7:25, how long is a time, two times and half a time?

Is there a literal hell? What happens to one's soul and spirit upon death?

I'll quit for now. Thank you in advance for those that can answer my questions.

With a sincerest heart,

LC

p.s. I changed my religious affiliation to "Messianic" so that I could post a new thread. I have been a professed Christian for as long as I can remember, and while I do not want to falsely portray myself, I feel that "Messianic" is probably the most accurate description after, "World-is-rocked-and-seeking-the-truth," which, of course, isn't an option

 

[Henaynei]

Dear LC, Welcome!

Yes, questions - too many for me to answer in one response, and there are others here who will have better answers to many of them anyway!

I would like to suggest that you check out a posting I did on the Trinity issue on this thread - mine would be #14 on that page, though there are other voices there worth listening to as well.

Lila Tov (good night),
Henaynei

 

[LibertyChic]

Thank you, Henaynei. I will go check right now.

Also, I just found the "two messiah" post, and will study that further.

Shalom.

 

[Henaynei]

Lineage is shown throughout scripture, as being through the father. Why is it, then, that I've always heard that one's "Jewishness" depends on whether your mother is Jewish or not? (Believe it or not, this is a question relating to Yeshua)

Lineage was originally followed through the father - and inheritance always was - but....

After centuries of pillage, ruin and rape the only sure way to know if a child was born of Jewish parentage was if the mother was Jewish. Even before Yeshua's time - as we remember at Khanukah - the Syrian rulers decreed that every Jewish bride in Israel had to spend her wedding night in the bed of the Syrian ruler. As you know - one may not know who the daddy is but the mom is one who is in labor!! And so it has remained, lo these many centuries.

Also of note is that an adopted son has the same rights as a birth son - so Yeshua, being the first born/adopted had the rights and responsibilities of the first born.

He was from David's line on both "sides."

This is just a preliminary answer.....
Some one like Simcha_Torah or koilias or SonWorshipper or Pray4Isrel will have deeper insight into this issue

 

[Henaynei]

Why is the basis for the entire Nativity story rooted in Astrology?

I would not say the "entire Nativity story" is rooted in Astrology - only that part of the story that realtes to the Magi speaks of a Star.

There has been a rather lively discussion - especially today - on this topic in one of the christian forums: Who were the Wise Men? There are only 2 pages in that thread so it is not too long reading - LOL

Referring to Daniel 7:25, how long is a time, two times and half a time?

This is generally considered to mean 3 1/2 years.

 

[Henaynei]

Sorry to submit you to only my views and answers - but no one else is around at the moment!!

 

[LibertyChic]

This is generally considered to mean 3 1/2 years.

That's what I thought, but it doesn't match up with the meaning of the scripture, as I understood it to be (referring to the church), "and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and shall think to change the time of sacred feasts and holy days and the law; and the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time."

What are your thoughts on it?

 

[Henaynei]

That's what I thought, but it doesn't match up with the meaning of the scripture, as I understood it to be (referring to the church), "and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and shall think to change the time of sacred feasts and holy days and the law; and the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time."

What are your thoughts on it?

Do you have the reference off hand?? If not I'll do a concordance search in a bit

 

[LibertyChic]

I would not say the "entire Nativity story" is rooted in Astrology - only that part of the story that realtes to the Magi speaks of a Star.

There has been a rather lively discussion - especially today - on this topic in one of the christian forums: Who were the Wise Men? There are only 2 pages in that thread so it is not too long reading - LOL

I did read that thread; didn't do much for me Although, as always, your replies were the most interesting.

If Yeshua is not part of a trinity, and therefore not part of a god-head, then why did the Magi fall down and worship him? I am really struggling here, can you tell? I'm the last person I thought would ever question the divinity or validity of Jesus/Yeshua as Messiah.


Thanks again.....

 

[LibertyChic]

Do you have the reference off hand?? If not I'll do a concordance search in a bit

Hey, aren't you going to bed??

It is Daniel 7:25, but I have no real reference beyond that. A Messianic Rabbi told me that it is referring to the church, and it seems to make sense, except for the "3 and a half years" part.

 

[LibertyChic]

Lineage was originally followed through the father - and inheritance always was - but....

After centuries of pillage, ruin and rape the only sure way to know if a child was born of Jewish parentage was if the mother was Jewish. Even before Yeshua's time - as we remember at Khanukah - the Syrian rulers decreed that every Jewish bride in Israel had to spend her wedding night in the bed of the Syrian ruler. As you know - one may not know who the daddy is but the mom is one who is in labor!! And so it has remained, lo these many centuries.

Thank you so much for this explanation. That helps a lot.

Also of note is that an adopted son has the same rights as a birth son - so Yeshua, being the first born/adopted had the rights and responsibilities of the first born.

He was from David's line on both "sides."

This is just a preliminary answer.....
Some one like Simcha_Torah or koilias or SonWorshipper or Pray4Isrel will have deeper insight into this issue

I have heard this in my years in the Christian church....most Rabbinical (is that the right word? LOL) Rabbis would disagree though, right? (Matter of agreement of interpretation?)

 

[Henaynei]

That's what I thought, but it doesn't match up with the meaning of the scripture, as I understood it to be (referring to the church), "and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and shall think to change the time of sacred feasts and holy days and the law; and the saints shall be given into his hand for a time, two times, and half a time."

What are your thoughts on it?

Daniel 7:25

And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Daniel’s vision was about Israel, not the church – G-d was responding to Daniel’s plea to know what was going to happen to Israel:

"change the times and the laws" - there is only one set of G-d ordained "times and laws" that the anti-Messiah will challenge, and they are given to Israel not the church

“saint” means here holy or separated ones – righteous g-dfearing Jews.

“time” – following the Hebrew root of the Strong’s word, means period or cycle, i.e. year is the common understanding

“dividing” – here is the Hebrew word for half

 

[BenTsion]

Dear Libertychick,

I'm not at home right now (spending the holidays at a relative's), so I don't have much
time to actually explore the questions you've posted, but I'm sure others will deal with
it just fine.

As one who has already been disappointed with church, I'd like to tell you that the
inconsistency of what's been taught at churches these days are not the Bible's fault.
Its just that the Christian churches still cling to their Roman (and thus, pagan) roots
and therefore have some twisted views on a few theological aspects. But that doesn't
make Yeshua less divine, or the Brit Hadasha (New Testament) less inspired. I hope
that Messianic Judaism will be able to do for you what it did for me in terms of
providing a solid and coherent interpretation of scriptures. I'd like to recommend a few
links for you to take a look when you have some spare time.

1 - Regarding Yeshua's divine nature, we can find it even in the book of Genesis. Take
a look at the article on this thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t76076

2 - You will also find more information on Yeshua, his divine nature, the Bible and
Messianic Judaism at the following links. The first one has shorter articles and therefore
is best for a first read. The second one is more in-depth:

http://www.baruchhashem.com/menus/menusart.html
http://home.earthlink.net/~hoshanarabbah/teaching.html

Don't give up on Yeshua just because a part of His bride is still struggling to
get it right!

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

 

[Henaynei]

Don't give up on Yeshua just because a part of His bride is still struggling to get it right!

In Messiah,
Ben Tsion

So right, Ben Tsion, So Right!!

 

[Achichem]

I'm finding less and less proof for a trinity. How does all this work together, then, with Yeshua being the Messiah and the Son of G-d? Is He or is He not G-d?

I am by no means a expert to this subject, and neither that confident on it.
But I will tell you where I am at, and the evidence there of.
You see the problem with the trinity is not in my mind, a matter of Yeshua’s divinity.

In come when one does not interpret the fact as the facts stand.
I would ask one to look at how each terms Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were used.

One would quickly see that each is very specific in it’s usage and application.
The doctrine of the trinity denies this fundamental fact. This is because the doctrine of the trinity actually tries to identify parts of G-d, which of course there is none for He is one, but do not mistake this pagan mut as a reason to not read what the recording of Yeshua.

Use see what would find in the scriptures which talk on the subject is that Yeshua is always used to expand on G-d, the father as the direction of G-d, and the spirit as doing G-d will.

This identification leads me to make my first deduction, based on the idea that we G-d is all encompassing.
That is that:
The Father = noun for G-d
The Son = adjective for G-d
The Spirit = verb for G-d

You see it is then my deduction that the problem with the trinity is trying to protry three person within one, well there is not three whole persons within one, but a body of interdependent systems working together in their function to simple be G-d.

So instead of:
Father = person
Son = person
Holy Spirit = person

It’s:
Father = the mind of G-d
Son = the body (relative) of G-d
Holy Spirit = the hand of G-d

So when one says in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit…I just believe they are saying in G-d all encompassing.

I don’t know, this could be a passing idea of my own delusions or this could really be something, either way I thought I should put it out there.

I question though, did not Yeshua imply: I do the works of my father and that how you should know me.

So in that regard, what are your feelings on Yeshua?

Sa'Halamway,
DaTsar

 

[koilias]

Why is the basis for the entire Nativity story rooted in Astrology?

LibertyChic...This is just my observation, and I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you are struggling with the nature of prophecy. Maybe you should just focus on the heart of the matter: the nature of Yeshua and what he came to earth to do and to teach. With a "grander than the grand canyon" question at stake, are you not infact questioning issues on the margins, and missing the heart of our movement: the Kingdom of HaShem? Yeshua called John the Baptist the greatest born of woman--for he was the last and greatest of the prophets, in the mold of Elijah. But even the least in the Kingdom of HaShem is greater than John: for all that the prophets came prophecying was about the coming of the Kingdom of HaShem. The Kingdom is in your midst and within your grasp: do everything in your power not to pass it by! Go open the Torah, plumb it deeper and discover what Yeshua taught about it, and live it in your life! The RuaH haKodesh will guide you.

Yeshua shows you what you really need in life! He wasn't interested in proving he was the MeshiaH...in fact, he never even claimed he was the MeshiaH!! He let others make that claim. He wasn't going around quoting Daniel and arguing the divine origins of his birth. He knew who He Was and Is and Is to Come, but he didn't go around preaching that. He went around preaching about the Kingdom of HaShem!

As for your questions, they are all very important questions, don't get me wrong. But some of these aren't questions that you and I and everyone on earth can really get to the bottom of. Especially the question on the nature of the trinity. Simchat Torah said it best: we can only BEGIN to comprehend the eternal, even if we have all eternity to comprehend it. These kinds of questions are "let's sit down and mull it over together" kind of questions, perfect-for-a-forum kind of questions. I'd be interested to hear what you and others have to say about them. But don't miss the Kingdom for the trees!

With coffee in my hand,

Koi

 

[LibertyChic]

This identification leads me to make my first deduction, based on the idea that we G-d is all encompassing.
That is that:
The Father = noun for G-d
The Son = adjective for G-d
The Spirit = verb for G-d

That is a very interesting way of looking at it. I'm stumbling over the "adjective" part of the equation, though. Probably because I haven't had enough caffeine yet and my mind is just not seeing what you are trying to say to me

An adjective is a describing word. So the Son then is a description, so to speak, of the Father? Yet, he was also a person, which we cannot forget.

You see it is then my deduction that the problem with the trinity is trying to protry three person within one, well there is not three whole persons within one, but a body of interdependent systems working together in their function to simple be G-d.

So instead of:
Father = person
Son = person
Holy Spirit = person

Which, of course, is how I had been taught my whole life. That they are three distinct and seperate persons, yet one. Yet another analogy is the "pie." Take a cherry pie...you can slice it into three seperate, equal and yet distinct pieces, yet the filling runs all together and you cannot really seperate that filling out. It is all the same stuff.

It’s:
Father = the mind of G-d
Son = the body (relative) of G-d
Holy Spirit = the hand of G-d

Sorry to interrupt again.... if the Son is the body, than what are the believers? I thought we were the body? Not trying to be argumentative, really. Just trying to sort it all out in m'head <grin>

So when one says in the name of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit…I just believe they are saying in G-d all encompassing.

Right....sure...I think that nearly any Christian will tell you this. <winking grin>

So in that regard, what are your feelings on Yeshua?

Sa'Halamway,
DaTsar

I don't know anymore! LOL But that's why I believe I was led here. I know G-d has me on this path and that He will continue to reveal His truth to me.

Thank you for your thoughtful answers

 

[LibertyChic]

BenTsion,

I am currently working through all the material provided on the links you posted for me. Thank you for that.

Also, on an unrelated topic, it's "LibertyChic" as in "Chic; pronounced 'Sheek'" Although LibertyChick is a pretty cool name too...lol. I did intend for it to be a little play on words, so technically, you are not far off.

To Henaynei (or anyone else that would like to address this) regarding the lineage of Yeshua: Matthew 1:11 shows that Joseph was a direct decendant of Jeconiah, also known as Coniah and Jehoiachin. However, in Jeremiah 23:30 it shows that Coniah will not have any offspring upon the throne of David nor ruling in Judah.

I swear, I'm not trying to be contentious or difficult. I am suddenly seeing these apparent descrepancies and am just trying to resolve them.

Shalom,

LC

 

[Henaynei]

To Henaynei (or anyone else that would like to address this) regarding the lineage of Yeshua: Matthew 1:11 shows that Joseph was a direct decendant of Jeconiah, also known as Coniah and Jehoiachin. However, in Jeremiah 23:30 it shows that Coniah will not have any offspring upon the throne of David nor ruling in Judah.

LC,

That curse was rescended by G-d later - guys - who remembers where??

 

[Henaynei]

LC,

Did you get a chance to read the post on the Humanity & Divinity of Yeshua - aka "Trinity?"?

Just click on the orange type (on CF that means it is a link) - let me know what you think.......