So I'm listening to R.C. this morning...

[UMP]

Sproul was talking about tithing. He first says that tithing is not required "explicitly" in the new testament and then goes on to say that the new testament Christian is "robbing God" and "extorting" from God if he does not tithe. He also stated that he has never missed "one penny" of his own required tithe, which he believed was a "liberating" way to live. What's up with this?
Let us discuss.

 

[bradfordl]

Even our beloved RC has the flesh with which to wrestle. Christ is our liberation. Keeping a commandment is nothing more than our reasonable service. And I don't believe that any of us keep any commandment perfectly. Praise be unto God for the great mercy He has shown us in Christ Jesus!

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

A principle, and an admonition, but not a law.

 

[Imblessed]

Our pastor drew a wonderful parallel between our obedience in tithing and our trust in God.

It is true that the one thing most Christians fail to trust God with is their money. Do you TRULY trust God to provide for you? It's not easy.

I'm not sure that using terms like 'robbing God' and 'extorting God' are proper in discussion of tithing though, and bragging about not ever missing his required tithing is not terribly smart......but no man is perfect, right? ~

I think bradford put it well. "a principal, an admonition, but not a law"

 

[UMP]

Even our beloved RC has the flesh with which to wrestle. Christ is our liberation. Keeping a commandment is nothing more than our reasonable service. And I don't believe that any of us keep any commandment perfectly. Praise be unto God for the great mercy He has shown us in Christ Jesus!

2Co 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

A principle, and an admonition, but not a law.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Sproul was talking about tithing. He first says that tithing is not required "explicitly" in the new testament and then goes on to say that the new testament Christian is "robbing God" and "extorting" from God if he does not tithe. He also stated that he has never missed "one penny" of his own required tithe, which he believed was a "liberating" way to live. What's up with this?
Let us discuss.

First...let's look at what Sproul really said. I heard that program yesterday, too, and when he said he never 'missed' his tithe, he wasn't saying that he never failed to pay his obligation to the last penny. When he said he never 'missed' his tithe, he meant he never missed not having the money for other things.

Second...giving to the church is a principle taught in the New Testament. The only question is how much we are to give, and I think this is a matter of personal conviction. Personally, I think we need to provide first for our own churches, and then give offerings for other works as the Lord leads. If you give nothing to the church...yes, you are indeed robbing God. However, I'm not going to quibble over the difference in 10% or a few bucks a week.

Incidentally...my neighbor used to scrupulously tithe his 10% to the church...no more, no less. He did a study on tithing, and he concluded that the 10% doesn't apply to New Testament teaching, but that we need to give where there is need, and whatever we are able. Since he's abandoned the 'tithe', he actually now gives more like 20-25%. What do you make of that?

 

[AndOne]

What do you all think of churches that will keep a family from membership if they don't "tithe?"

Like some have said and I agree - we should give regularly - but it has got to be wrong for a local church to exclude folks from membership if they don't tithe. And probably 80 percent of the churches out there do this.

I could see it - if a member doesn't give at all - but it just doesn't sit right with me if they still exclude because they don't hit that 10%.

Oh well - just some random thoughts..

 

[mlqurgw]

The only ones who should know how much a person gives is God, the person and the treasurer. It ain't no one elses buisness.

 

[UMP]

]First...let's look at what Sproul really said. I heard that program yesterday, too, and when he said he never 'missed' his tithe, he wasn't saying that he never failed to pay his obligation to the last penny. When he said he never 'missed' his tithe, he meant he never missed not having the money for other things.

I'm pretty sure he said what I said he said. In fact, I made mental notes of it over and over again because I wanted to post it here. Regardless, my mind is not very sharp and I've been wrong more times that I would like to admit.

Second...giving to the church is a principle taught in the New Testament. The only question is how much we are to give, and I think this is a matter of personal conviction. Personally, I think we need to provide first for our own churches, and then give offerings for other works as the Lord leads. If you give nothing to the church...yes, you are indeed robbing God. However, I'm not going to quibble over the difference in 10% or a few bucks a week.

Incidentally...my neighbor used to scrupulously tithe his 10% to the church...no more, no less. He did a study on tithing, and he concluded that the 10% doesn't apply to New Testament teaching, but that we need to give where there is need, and whatever we are able. Since he's abandoned the 'tithe', he actually now gives more like 20-25%. What do you make of that?

What do I think? I think I'm a scumbag.
I think that knowing what I know, I SHOULD give 100%. If God can sustain the ravens who have no money or clothing, he can certainly sustain me. I think I rob God in some form, daily.

This is what I think:

Show pity, Lord, O Lord, forgive,
Let a repenting rebel live:
Are not Thy mercies large and free?
May not a sinner trust in Thee?

My crimes are great, but not surpass
The power and glory of Thy grace:
Great God, Thy nature hath no bound,
So let Thy pard’ning love be found.

Should sudden vengeance seize my breath,
I must pronounce Thee just in death;
And if my soul were sent to hell,
Thy righteous law approves it well.

Yet save a trembling sinner, Lord,
Whose hope, still hov’ring round Thy Word,
Would light on some sweet promise there,
Some sure support against despair.

O Depth of mercy! can it be
That mercy’s still reserved for me?
Ah, can my God His wrath forbear,
And me the chief of sinners spare?

Watts

 

[UMP]

What do you all think of churches that will keep a family from membership if they don't "tithe?"

Like some have said and I agree - we should give regularly - but it has got to be wrong for a local church to exclude folks from membership if they don't tithe. And probably 80 percent of the churches out there do this.

I would ask the 80%, "where does it say in the Bible to deny Church membership to someone who does not give 10%?"

 

[bradfordl]

What do I think? I think I'm a scumbag.
I think that knowing what I know, I SHOULD give 100%. If God can sustain the ravens who have no money or clothing, he can certainly sustain me. I think I rob God in some form, daily.

This is what I think:

Show pity, Lord, O Lord, forgive,
Let a repenting rebel live:
Are not Thy mercies large and free?
May not a sinner trust in Thee?

My crimes are great, but not surpass
The power and glory of Thy grace:
Great God, Thy nature hath no bound,
So let Thy pard’ning love be found.

Should sudden vengeance seize my breath,
I must pronounce Thee just in death;
And if my soul were sent to hell,
Thy righteous law approves it well.

Yet save a trembling sinner, Lord,
Whose hope, still hov’ring round Thy Word,
Would light on some sweet promise there,
Some sure support against despair.

O Depth of mercy! can it be
That mercy’s still reserved for me?
Ah, can my God His wrath forbear,
And me the chief of sinners spare?

Watts

Me too, UMP, and amen! Watts could pen the pleas of a saved sinner's broken heart so well.

I did not hear the program, but I could see where if RC meant that he didn't miss having the money it could be misconstrued to mean he had never failed to tithe. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[UMP]

I did not hear the program, but I could see where if RC meant that he didn't miss having the money it could be misconstrued to mean he had never failed to tithe. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Yes, I believe I misunderstood what RC was trying to say.
Forgive me RC. I know you're reading

 

[edie19]

What do you all think of churches that will keep a family from membership if they don't "tithe?"

Like some have said and I agree - we should give regularly - but it has got to be wrong for a local church to exclude folks from membership if they don't tithe. And probably 80 percent of the churches out there do this.

I could see it - if a member doesn't give at all - but it just doesn't sit right with me if they still exclude because they don't hit that 10%.

Oh well - just some random thoughts..

Over the years I've been the member of 5 churches (the last 3 churches are related) and have attended 2 others for a rather extended period of time (1 year each). None of the churches has denied membership on basis of giving.

My current pastor (with whom I've worsipped through the 3 related churches over the past ~14 years) has never once preached on tithing. The only time he discusses it to simply say our church has generous givers. He never looks at the giving record either - he'd rather not know what people are giving (he doesn't feel its any of his business).

edie

 

[mlqurgw]

The reason I left Orangewood Presbyterian Church in Orlando was because the elders kept on me about making pledges toward a new building. That was back in the early 80's. They began to preach quite a bit about tithing around that time also. I attended the first service in the building they already had, which was the one they built when they moved out of the storefront, and it was just fine. I had no problem with them spending millions on a new one so much as how they made it clear to me that I was robbing God if I didn't pledge on paper to give a certain amount. I went round and round with the elders on that one.
Of course it was only incidental that I was never a Presbyterian.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

What do you all think of churches that will keep a family from membership if they don't "tithe?"

Like some have said and I agree - we should give regularly - but it has got to be wrong for a local church to exclude folks from membership if they don't tithe. And probably 80 percent of the churches out there do this.

I think it's just as wicked as not giving back to the church from what God has given you in the first place. To begin with, I don't believe we are under the tithing law. Our duty is to give freely and bountifully according to our means, in gratitude for all the gifts that God has poured out on us, and to contribute to the relief of the poor.

But more than this, the church's job is to make sure that the means of grace are delivered to the people, to ensure that they are in the sphere of God's saving grace. To enforce tithing as a price for membership (which is what it really is under this sort of system) both destroys the principle of giving and hinders rather than aids sanctification. Of course, members who willfully and obstinately refuse to live a life appropriate to their confession of faith, they ought to be disciplined. But the church's duty is not to police these matters, but to give us Word and sacrament and sanctify us through those means.

I don't have any problem, by the way, with preaching about giving, as long as it isn't some sort of "pledge drive" or an attempt to increase the church's coffers. A lot of folks seem to. We may see it as extortion, but I think the biggest problem is that we're greedy, and so we should be admonished by the law to stop being so greedy and open up our wallets.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

...it has got to be wrong for a local church to exclude folks from membership if they don't tithe. And probably 80 percent of the churches out there do this.

Wow. I guess I've lived a sheltered life. I've belonged to eight churches in the twenty years I've been a Christian (mainly because of job relocation), and I've never seen a church exclude somebody from membership because they didn't tithe.

 

[bradfordl]

Wow. I guess I've lived a sheltered life. I've belonged to eight churches in the twenty years I've been a Christian (mainly because of job relocation), and I've never seen a church exclude somebody from membership because they didn't tithe.

I must be just as sheltered, GD, 'cuz I've never seen one either. We had an elder who proposed having member families submit their 1040's to the session, he left the Church pretty soon after that.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

Wow. I guess I've lived a sheltered life. I've belonged to eight churches in the twenty years I've been a Christian (mainly because of job relocation), and I've never seen a church exclude somebody from membership because they didn't tithe.

I have seen it, but 80 percent seems too high an estimate. I don't think there'd be many church-goers if that were the case.

 

[AndOne]

Eighty percent was just an estimate on my part - and has been my experience - though I have attended mostly churches of a pentacostal/arminian flavor till a few years ago - that may have something to do with it.

 

[Elisha1961]

The Church I grew up in had an annual budget each member or family was to pay their share of it. They divided the amount out and they were expected to pay that much. They did not preach on tithing, just giving as they felt to give over the required amount. The church was very generous for the most part it seemed. But everyone seemed to know who was not paying their part of the budget and had little sympathy for those having a hard time financially.