So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

[AdB]

If Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 are speaking of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and that this is the fulfilment of Dan 9:27b “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”, then what is 2 Thes 2:1-4 speaking of, in particular “So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”?

 

[Douggg]

If Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 are speaking of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and that this is the fulfilment of Dan 9:27b “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”, then what is 2 Thes 2:1-4 speaking of, in particular “So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”?

Answer to the question (in blue) :

The transgression of desolation. An act. The Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself to be the man of sin, and not the Jewish messiah after all. God has him killed for his audacious act.

And later, God brings him back to life in disdain for the person, as part of God's plan to end Satan's kingdom and rule over the nations. Brought back to life, the spirit of the garden of Eden original serpent beast enters him, that promotes through that person Satan's lie that men can become like God. Possessed, the person is then called what the bible terms as "the beast"

The abomination of desolation follows. A thing. The image of the beast in Revelation 13 to be placed on the temple mount courtyard. At that point, the Jews in Judea are to flee into the mountains, because the great tribulation begins at that point and lasts 1335 days until Jesus returns to end it.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 are speaking of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and that this is the fulfilment of Dan 9:27b “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”, then what is 2 Thes 2:1-4 speaking of, in particular “So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”?

The Jewish temple had already been made desolate through the work of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. It was no longer the temple of God. The destruction of the temple was the final end of the age known as Temple Judaism. Temple Judaism proclaimed that God stilled dwelled in the Holy of Holies when in fact He did not. He now makes His Home in the beliver. EDITED
Blessings

 

[AdB]

Answer to the question (in blue) :

The transgression of desolation. An act. The Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself to be the man of sin, and not the Jewish messiah after all. God has him killed for his audacious act.

And later, God brings him back to life in disdain for the person, as part of God's plan to end Satan's kingdom and rule over the nations. Brought back to life, the spirit of the garden of Eden original serpent beast enters him, that promotes through that person Satan's lie that men can become like God. Possessed, the person is then called what the bible terms as "the beast"

The abomination of desolation follows. A thing. The image of the beast in Revelation 13 to be placed on the temple mount courtyard. At that point, the Jews in Judea are to flee into the mountains, because the great tribulation begins at that point and lasts 1335 days until Jesus returns to end it.

You're giving only a partial answer, you don't seem to address the relation to the Olivet Discourse and Dan 9:27b.
In your view does Dan 9:27b refer to what you describe as the transgression or to the abomination?
And in your view how does Dan 9:27b relate to Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20?

 

[AdB]

The Jewish temple had already been made desolate through the work of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. It was no longer the temple of God. The destruction of the temple was the final end of the age known as Temple Judaism. Temple Judaism proclaimed that God stilled dwelled in the Holy of Holies when in fact He did not. He now makes His Home in the beliver. EDITED
Blessings

So you say Dan 9:27b refers to the crucifixion's and resurrection of Christ, and Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 refer to the destruction of Jerusalem? So in your view these are not directly related? But Jesus refers to Daniel in a direct manner in the Olivet Discourse... How does that add up?

But you didn't address my actual question regarding what the meaning of 2 Thes 2:1-4.

 

[Douggg]

You're giving only a partial answer, in your view does Dan 9:27b refer to what you describe as the transgression or to the abomination?

In Daniel 9:27, it is referring to the abomination of desolation....

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

which, because it says overspreading of abominations (plural), it includes the abomination of desolation statue image being possessed by Satan when he will be cast down to earth, making the image appear by deceptive miracle to come alive and speak. And by which, Satan will be worshiped in Revelation 13:4.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

________________________________________________

The transgression of desolation act to be committed by the Antichrist is in Daniel 8:13. It will be slightly before the abomination of desolation image thing.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

 

[AdB]

In Daniel 9:27, it is referring to the abomination of desolation....

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

which, because it says overspreading of abominations (plural), it includes the abomination of desolation statue image being possessed by Satan when he will be cast down to earth, making the image appear by deceptive miracle to come alive and speak. And by which, Satan will be worshiped in Revelation 13:4.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

________________________________________________

The transgression of desolation act to be committed by the Antichrist is in Daniel 8:13. It will be slightly before the abomination of desolation image thing.

Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Do you regard Matt 24:21, Mark 13:19 and Luke 21:23-24 to be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem? Because I'm looking for an answer to my question from that point of view...

 

[trophy33]

We do not know how exactly it was fulfilled. There is a period of silence regarding the Christian literature after 70 AD. The church was either too persecuted to write down for us what happened or was literally taken.

The first Christian written explanations of what happened are from people who were not alive at the time and they differ from each other significantly on eschatology.

 

[Douggg]

Do you regard Matt 24:21, Mark 13:19 and Luke 21:23-24 to be talking about the destruction of Jerusalem? Because I'm looking for an answer to my question from that point of view...

Matthew 24:21 - no.

Mark 13:19 - no.

Luke 21:23-24 - yes.

Luke 21:23-24 is followed by the times of the gentiles - until 1948/1967.
Mark 13:19 and Matthew 24:21 are not followed by the times of the gentiles.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So you say Dan 9:27b refers to the crucifixion's and resurrection of Christ, and Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 refer to the destruction of Jerusalem? So in your view these are not directly related? But Jesus refers to Daniel in a direct manner in the Olivet Discourse... How does that add up?

But you didn't address my actual question regarding what the meaning of 2 Thes 2:1-4.

Not sure why it does not add up. It is all speaking of the same thing "it is finished". Jesus Christ of Nazareth put an end to temple sacrifice. He predicted the destruction of the physical temple while fulfilling the final sacrifice to that very temple. All is done by Him and through Him.
As far as Thessalonians, Paul was dealing with false doctrines , as we read here, " not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come".
Obviously there was a faction of lawlessness spreading around the church that shook many. I belive they were mainly Judiazers of that time, possibly mixing Judaism with Christianity. Even encouraging temple sacrifice. This would be the most egregious act leading to profound error.
My take anyway. I dont hold to Futurism however I do belive in the Second Comming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth on the last day.
Blessings

 

[AdB]

Matthew 24:21 - no.

Mark 13:19 - no.

Luke 21:23-24 - yes.

Luke 21:23-24 is followed by the times of the gentiles - until 1948/1967.
Mark 13:19 and Matthew 24:21 are not followed by the times of the gentiles.

All three texts seem to be talking about the same speech Jesus gave, Luke phrased it somewhat different which could be because he added additional information that he gathered from his inquiries...

 

[AdB]

Not sure why it does not add up. It is all speaking of the same thing "it is finished". Jesus Christ of Nazareth put an end to temple sacrifice. He predicted the destruction of the physical temple while fulfilling the final sacrifice to that very temple. All is done by Him and through Him.
As far as Thessalonians, Paul was dealing with false doctrines , as we read here, " not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come".
Obviously there was a faction of lawlessness spreading around the church that shook many. I belive they were mainly Judiazers of that time, possibly mixing Judaism with Christianity. Even encouraging temple sacrifice. This would be the most egregious act leading to profound error.
My take anyway. I dont hold to Futurism however I do belive in the Second Comming of Jesus Christ of Nazareth on the last day.
Blessings

But what then is the meaning of 2 Thes 2:1-4 in your view???

 

[Douggg]

All three texts seem to be talking about the same speech Jesus gave, Luke phrased it somewhat different which could be because he added additional information that he gathered from his inquiries...

There are similarities. But Luke takes place in the temple complex courtyard. Matthew and Mark takes place on the mount of Olives - after Jesus and the disciples have left the temple complex.

Luke 21 is before Matthew 24/Mark 13.

I explain why in my two posts 83 and 84 in New Info on Numbers 1260, 1290, 1335 and 42

 

[trophy33]

But what then is the meaning of 2 Thes 2:1-4 in your view???

For example, according to Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers:

"... the whole phrase, “taking his seat in the temple of God,” is a poetical or prophetical description of usurping divine prerogatives generally: not the prerogatives of the true God alone, but whatever prerogatives have been offered to anything “called God.”

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Commentaries: who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

 

[trophy33]

There are similarities. But Luke takes place in the temple complex courtyard. Matthew and Mark takes place on the mount of Olives - after Jesus and the disciples have left the temple complex.

Luke 21 is before Matthew 24/Mark 13.

The similarity is so striking that there is no doubt all three places are about the same thing. That various gospel writers put the words of Jesus into different places is a common thing.

 

[AdB]

Not sure why it does not add up. It is all speaking of the same thing "it is finished". Jesus Christ of Nazareth put an end to temple sacrifice. He predicted the destruction of the physical temple while fulfilling the final sacrifice to that very temple. All is done by Him and through Him.

Because you seem to acknowledge that Dan 9:27b refers to the crucifixion's and resurrection of Christ, while Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.
Jesus indicates in Matt 24:15 that this was spoken of by Daniel, so this can't be referring to Dan 9:27b, so to which part of Daniel does it refer to then?

 

[trophy33]

Because you seem to acknowledge that Dan 9:27b refers to the crucifixion's and resurrection of Christ, while Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 refer to the destruction of Jerusalem.
Jesus indicates in Matt 24:15 that this was spoken of by Daniel, so this can't be referring to Dan 9:27b, so to which part of Daniel does it refer to then?

Just a note - "as written in Daniel" does not have to mean that its the fulfillment of Daniel. It can only mean that it will be similar.

So Daniel could be historically about Antiochus Epiphanes, but Jesus could refer to the text as "the same/very similar thing will happen again in this generation".

 

[AdB]

There are similarities. But Luke takes place in the temple complex courtyard. Matthew and Mark takes place on the mount of Olives - after Jesus and the disciples have left the temple complex.

Luke 21 is before Matthew 24/Mark 13.

The structure is completely similar, Luke just doesn't explicitly mention that from Luke 21:7 they had moved onto the Mount of Olives.

 

[Douggg]

The similarity is so striking that there is no doubt all three places are about the same thing. That various gospel writers put the words of Jesus into different places is a common thing.

Do you mean all three chapters, Luke 21, Mark 13, Matthew 24 are about the same thing? If so, there is much that is the same.

But Luke 21, Jesus does not include the abomination of desolation spoke of by Daniel the prophet standing in a holy place.

 

[DavidPT]

If Matt 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20 are speaking of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and that this is the fulfilment of Dan 9:27b “And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”, then what is 2 Thes 2:1-4 speaking of, in particular “So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.”?

Only Luke 21:20 appears to be involving the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, thus no connection to Daniel 9:27b nor 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 though, these are involving Daniel 9:27b, where that is involving 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4.

If one will notice, the following in Luke 21 makes it clear, or at least to some of us anyway, that Jerusalem is being surrounded twice, not just once.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---this is what happened during verse 20. The fact the times of the Gentiles is yet to be fulfilled, and the fact the text tells us Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled, this tells us that Luke 21:20 is not the end of the story involving Jerusalem. In Luke 21:20 that is only meaning up to 70 Ad, thus there is a gap of at least 2000 years in Luke 21 until the coming in Luke 21:27 takes place.

In Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 there is not a gap of 2000 years after those are fulfilled, that the coming in those chapters take place. Let's focus on the Matthew 24 account to try and keep it simple since we already know the Mark 13 account is it's parallel.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

In Luke 21 Matthew 24:15 is not meaning during Luke 21:20, this is meaning during this recorded in Luke 21:24---and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Matthew 24:15 is meaning in the end of this age towards the end of the 2000 year gap that began with Luke 21:20. Personally, I take this gap to be involving the gap concerning the 70 weeks. Either that gap is between the 69th and 70th week or it's in the middle of the 70th week. Regardless where it might be, there is clearly a gap there, yet many deny a gap is involved even though it is plainly obvious there has to be.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


This is why Luke 21:20 can't be meant in Matthew 24:15-22. The tribulation of those days are undeniably meaning Matthew 24:15-26 and that immediately after Luke 21:20 was fulfilled, what is recorded in Matthew 24:29 did not follow any of that. A gap followed the fulfillment of Luke 21:20 and that we are still apparently experiencing this gap as we speak since Matthew 24:15-26 has to be fulfilled before the coming recorded in Matthew 24:30 can take place.

Since this post is already getting rather lengthy, Matthew 24:15-26 involves 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is involving Revelation 13 and the 42 month reign of the beast.

We can see the connection with all 3 like this for one.

Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

What I have underlined couldn't possibly be involving Luke 21:20, yet it is involving Matthew 24:15-22, and still there are many that would have us believe that Matthew 24:15-22 parallels Luke 21:20.