So God created some people knowing beforehand that they would go to Hell..

[Davidnic]

The Church put forth the virtuous Pagan theory for pagans who came before Christ during the Old Testament. This was even addressed at Trent I believe... so there is hope of salvation for them.

 

[bill5]

Right, but God knew who would reject him before he even created them. Why create if you know this person is going to end up in Hell?

Actually people create people. Yknow birds and bees and all. Not to say God isn't in there somewhere But again gets back to free will.

The obvious counter argument however is that a decent person will save the life of even the man who cannot be bothered to wear the life jacket if he has the ability to do so.

Disagree. You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Nor is it really your place to do so.

 

[benedictaoo]

God gave us free will which means that some would choose to reject him.

And God knew them from the beginning.

 

[benedictaoo]

John Pll wrote the best thing I've ever read on blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I wish I could remember which encyclical it's in. Basically after we reject God's mercy and truth enough times, at some point God hardens our hearts and we then no longer even recognize His mercy. It's based on God knowing our free willed choices and Him acting on our free will. Its a mystery.

 

[concretecamper]

The Church put forth the virtuous Pagan theory for pagans who came before Christ during the Old Testament. This was even addressed at Trent I believe... so there is hope of salvation for them.

Everything I have read on this subject states that it is extremely difficult and close to impossible. I have not seen this theory in the Trent documents, but it may be there.

 

[Davidnic]

John Pll wrote the best thing I've ever read on blaspheming the Holy Spirit. I wish I could remember which encyclical it's in. Basically after we reject God's mercy and truth enough times, at some point God hardens our hearts and we then no longer even recognize His mercy. It's based on God knowing our free willed choices and Him acting on our free will. Its a mystery.

I think its in here
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...-ii_enc_18051986_dominum-et-vivificantem.html

 

[benedictaoo]

I think its in here
http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p...-ii_enc_18051986_dominum-et-vivificantem.html

Yeah, that looks like it. Thanks.

 

[Davidnic]

Everything I have read on this subject states that it is extremely difficult and close to impossible. I have not seen this theory in the Trent documents, but it may be there.

It came about from Early Church Father St. Justin Martyr and a few more until Aquinas really gave it legs. It is tied to the harrowing of hell and the emptying of Limbus Patrum.

 

[benedictaoo]

Part two #6. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Wonderfully explained. Refusal to accept salvation by rejecting when the Holy Spirit comes to convince us of our sin.

 

[theniceiceman]

This is something I've struggled with understanding, too. It just doesn't make sense to us, logically. I mean, would we create someone knowing they would eventually be tortured for all eternity? More than likely not...so why does God do it? Either we're misunderstanding God (very, very possible) or we're misunderstanding Hell. Who knows what happens when we die? Most people think they know, but are they right? After all, God delights in showing mercy (Micah 7:18)...until we die?

Who knows? I certainly don't. Admittedly, I tend to err on the side of God's mercy winning out 'over' His justice (or, even better, His justice being part of His mercy and love), but who knows! Because whether we have free will or not, God still knows who will choose Him and who won't...right? Or maybe not? I don't know!

Just know you aren't the only one who wonders this

 

[Hoghead1]

I heard years ago that everyone should have an "I don't get it" file. You put everything in that file from why your dad died so early to how to understand the Trinity.
Life's pretty simple when you realize it's not all explainable.

Yes, but explain we must.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Yes, but explain we must.

You maybe. Not we.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

God gave us free will which means that some would choose to reject him.

And he knew who would do that prior to having created them...

 

[Davidnic]

And he knew who would do that prior to having created them...

Because they used free will to choose it. Gods relationship with time means He sees what will happen. He could not create them but then He removes the consequences of their actions on the world. And that negates free will.

He still sees their choice and gives them the grace to do otherwise.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Because they used free will to choose it. Gods relationship with time means He sees what will happen. He could not create them but then He removes the consequences of their actions on the world. And that negates free will.

He still sees their choice and gives them the grace to do otherwise.

It seems that he creates them for damnation.

 

[Davidnic]

No that would reprobation or double predestination. Dogma clarifies that is not the case. If it seems that way it is our limited ability to grasp the totality of it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Ok here's a question I'd like a good answer to because it's bothering me. Why did God decide to create certain people if he knew they would end up in Hell? In the Bible when talking about Judas it says "It would be better for him if he had not been born" If it would have been better for someone to have not been born, rather than end up in Hell, then why create them to begin with knowing they would end up there. This seems like an act of evil committed by God. Please help me out here, thanks.

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.​

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (Romans 9:14-23)​

 

[theniceiceman]

And he knew who would do that prior to having created them...

Data rocks.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

No that would reprobation or double predestination. Dogma clarifies that is not the case. If it seems that way it is our limited ability to grasp the totality of it.

"Our limited ability......."
Some people just won't accept that. I don't know if it qualifies as the sin of pride, but it certainly speaks to some giant egos.

 

[benedictaoo]

And he knew who would do that prior to having created them...

Not really. We are limited in how much we can understand now. There is no time with God. Everything is before Him now, so Him knowing before hand is the only terms we can put it but God's ways our above ours.