So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

Aman777 · Nov 5, 2013

Originally Posted by Aman777

The above shows the reason for the poster's confusion. He has confused the evidence of bronze making on this Earth, with the first bronze making on the FIRST Earth, the one which was toally destroyed in the Flood. ll Peter 3:3-7

When in doubt, invent a new planet (or an old one, as the case may be).

How adorable.

Dear TLK, You should try it. All you have to do is get God's Holy Word to agree with you. IF you are telling the Truth, no problem, but IF you are "inventing" something, Scripture will NOT agree with you.

Genesis 1:6-8 shows that the first "heaven" was made the 2nd Day.
Genesis 2:4 shows that other "heavenS" were made the 3rd Day.

One plus otherS, plural, equals at least 3 Heavens or Universes which were made by the 3rd Day, Scripturally. Can you refute that? Of course not. If you could, you would have done it long ago, but don't feel all alone. NONE of the Evols here NOR the preachers of ancient, traditional, religion, can refute God's Truth NOR can they make it agree with their foolishness.

Now, it's YOUR time to show us that God's Truth agrees with your views. I predict you will either flee or Blaspheme God and His Holy Word, the way some Godhaters do.

In Love,
Aman

TLK Valentine · Nov 5, 2013

Aman777 said:
Dear TLK, You should try it. All you have to do is get God's Holy Word to agree with you.

By any means necessary, it would seem.

Wouldn't it be better, rather than getting the Bible to agree with you, getting yourself to agree with it?

Granted, it doesn't leave as much room for creativity or whimsy as your approach does, but it's gotta count for something.

IF you are telling the Truth, no problem, but IF you are "inventing" something, Scripture will NOT agree with you.

Genesis 1:6-8 shows that the first "heaven" was made the 2nd Day.
Genesis 2:4 shows that other "heavenS" were made the 3rd Day.

One plus otherS, plural, equals at least 3 Heavens or Universes which were made by the 3rd Day, Scripturally. Can you refute that? Of course not.

Not without reading it in the original Hebrew. Have you tried that yet?

If you could, you would have done it long ago, but don't feel all alone. NONE of the Evols here NOR the preachers of ancient, traditional, religion, can refute God's Truth NOR can they make it agree with their foolishness.

Whereas your own foolishness meshes right in. The beauty of the Bible is that its poetry leaves plenty of room for interpretation -- and when one has thousands of years of the fruits of science in front of them, it's easy to fit some of it into some of the more poetic passages.

Now, it's YOUR time to show us that God's Truth agrees with your views. I predict you will either flee or Blaspheme God and His Holy Word, the way some Godhaters do.

Well, I don't plan on fleeing, I certainly have no interest in blaspheming God (why should I? He's never done anything to me), and it's utterly impossible to "blaspheme" the Bible, so your prediction is a bust.

Now it's my turn -- I predict that your will deliberately misconstrue my lack of conviction in your whimsical interpretation of the Bible as either blasphemy, or an admission of defeat, and declare victory for yourself over yet another "Godhater."

Go ahead -- prove me wrong.

frogman2x · Nov 6, 2013

bhsmte said:
In Jesus' time, 90% of the population was totally illiterate.

I'm from Missouri. Where is you evidence?

CabVet · Nov 6, 2013

frogman2x said:
I'm from Missouri. Where is you evidence?

"Ancient Literacy (William V. Harris) estimates less than 10% of the Roman Empire under the principate to be literate, with that number falling as low as 3% in Roman Judaea (see also M. Bar-Ilan, 'Illiteracy in the Land of Israel in the First Centuries AD/CE', in S. Fishbane and S. Schoenfeld, Essays in the Sociel Scientific Study of Judaism and Jewish Society, pages 46-61)."

Good enough for you?

Aman777 · Nov 6, 2013

Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear TLK, You should try it. All you have to do is get God's Holy Word to agree with you.

By any means necessary, it would seem.

Wouldn't it be better, rather than getting the Bible to agree with you, getting yourself to agree with it?

Granted, it doesn't leave as much room for creativity or whimsy as your approach does, but it's gotta count for something.

Dear TLK, False accusation since I do support my views with the agreement of scripture, science, and history. NO Evol nor religious Scholar has ever refuted me Scripturally. Can you?

IF you are telling the Truth, no problem, but IF you are "inventing" something, Scripture will NOT agree with you.

Genesis 1:6-8 shows that the first "heaven" was made the 2nd Day.
Genesis 2:4 shows that other "heavenS" were made the 3rd Day.

One plus otherS, plural, equals at least 3 Heavens or Universes which were made by the 3rd Day, Scripturally. Can you refute that? Of course not.

Not without reading it in the original Hebrew. Have you tried that yet?

Of course. Every word of the story of the Creation. That's WHY Christians don't refute me Scripturally.

If you could, you would have done it long ago, but don't feel all alone. NONE of the Evols here NOR the preachers of ancient, traditional, religion, can refute God's Truth NOR can they make it agree with their foolishness.
Whereas your own foolishness meshes right in. The beauty of the Bible is that its poetry leaves plenty of room for interpretation -- and when one has thousands of years of the fruits of science in front of them, it's easy to fit some of it into some of the more poetic passages.

Now, it's YOUR time to show us that God's Truth agrees with your views. I predict you will either flee or Blaspheme God and His Holy Word, the way some Godhaters do.

Well, I don't plan on fleeing, I certainly have no interest in blaspheming God (why should I? He's never done anything to me), and it's utterly impossible to "blaspheme" the Bible, so your prediction is a bust.

I am sorry you are so foolish in your thinking, and so ungrateful to your Creator. He gave His own Life for you, but you reject Him.

Now it's my turn -- I predict that your will deliberately misconstrue my lack of conviction in your whimsical interpretation of the Bible as either blasphemy, or an admission of defeat, and declare victory for yourself over yet another "Godhater."

Go ahead -- prove me wrong.

Of course you're wrong according to God Himself:

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That's God's Truth. Should we believe you or Him?

In Love,
Aman

Aman777 · Nov 6, 2013

Aman777 said:
If you could, you would have done it long ago, but don't feel all alone. NONE of the Evols here NOR the preachers of ancient, traditional, religion, can refute God's Truth NOR can they make it agree with their foolishness.

Whereas your own foolishness meshes right in. The beauty of the Bible is that its poetry leaves plenty of room for interpretation -- and when one has thousands of years of the fruits of science in front of them, it's easy to fit some of it into some of the more poetic passages.

Click to expand...

Dear TLK, False. ONLY by changing God's Literal Truth into myth, allegory and fiction, can one CLAIM the Bible is not true. You are totally misinformed since God's Truth is the Truth in EVERY way. Want to see?

In Love,
Aman

TLK Valentine · Nov 6, 2013

Aman777 said:
Dear TLK, False. ONLY by changing God's Literal Truth into myth, allegory and fiction, can one CLAIM the Bible is not true. You are totally misinformed since God's Truth is the Truth in EVERY way. Want to see?

In Love,
Aman[/FONT]

That... actually has nothing whatsoever with what I was talking about -- but keep going on with it; don't let me stop you.

bhsmte · Nov 6, 2013

frogman2x said:
I'm from Missouri. Where is you evidence?

Here you go, from a christian site.

They actually put the Illiteracy rate at 98.5%.

Were people literate in the time of Jesus? | Evidence for Christianity

mzungu · Nov 6, 2013

Aman777 said:
Aman777 said:

If you could, you would have done it long ago, but don't feel all alone. NONE of the Evols here NOR the preachers of ancient, traditional, religion, can refute God's Truth NOR can they make it agree with their foolishness.

Dear TLK, False. ONLY by changing God's Literal Truth into myth, allegory and fiction, can one CLAIM the Bible is not true. You are totally misinformed since God's Truth is the Truth in EVERY way. Want to see?

In Love,
Aman

Click to expand...

I think someone should remind you that this is a debate forum and not a place for proselytising. You may be blamed for trolling.

frogman2x · Nov 9, 2013

bhsmte said:
Here you go, from a christian site.

They actually put the Illiteracy rate at 98.5%.

Were people literate in the time of Jesus? | Evidence for Christianity

How they estimated the percentages was a littel vague but It is not worth quibbling over. I seriously doubt if the Jewish percentage wa as low as they reported.

Merrily · Nov 9, 2013

rjw said:
Well no, based on my experiences with many creationists across several different forums.

Two concepts are linked which show why Genesis is not necessarily the infallible and inerrant word of God:-

1) What the Bible claims for itself, and

2) The fruit many devout believers bear while under infallible guidance.

Take a look at the verses (and argument) presented at this link:-

Inspiration of the Bible:  Is the Bible Infallible, Inerrant, and Verbally Inspired?

The claim that these verses show inerrancy and infallibility of the Bible generally, and Genesis specifically, unravels when you consider two things:-

1) Humans wrote those words, and

2) At best the humans who wrote them claimed to have, or actually did have an intimate relationship with God and to be guided by God.

However, many forum creationists claim exactly these kinds of things:-

1) An intimate relationship with God,

2) Guidance the the Holy Spirit, the omnipotent source of pure truth and justice,

- and it is often seen, on examining the exchanges in these various forums that despite having such impeccable and unimpeachable guidance, creationists:-

1) Often make demonstrable mistakes,

2) Often write silly things, and

3) At times even lie.

If given this kind of relationship with God, forum creationists do no better, than mistakes, silly things , even lies, then why should they, and anyone else expect that writers of the Old and New Testaments did any better?

A lot of their writing may have been factual and accurate recording but a lot of it may well be mistaken, silly, and perhaps even lie.

Those writers, while supposedly having omnipotent and infallible guidance are realistically, no different to forum creationists, and look at what forum creationists achieve while under the same guidance.

Hence we have no reason to think that Genesis is the infallible and inerrant word of God. Even if God exists and guided the writing of the Bible's texts, it may well contain mistakes, and silly ideas.

Might Genesis be factual?
Factor out the 'faith factor' for just a moment and consider the question logically.
Why not?
It's as good an explanation of origins as any other out there.
No one alive now was alive 'back then' so nobody knows for sure.
Theories are just stories plus agenda.
Factor back in the 'faith factor' and some know whom they trust.

Aman777 · Nov 9, 2013

Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear TLK, False. ONLY by changing God's Literal Truth into myth, allegory and fiction, can one CLAIM the Bible is not true. You are totally misinformed since God's Truth is the Truth in EVERY way. Want to see?

TLK Valentine said:
That... actually has nothing whatsoever with what I was talking about -- but keep going on with it; don't let me stop you.

Dear TLK, If you will look, you will see that I did not answer the above in the previous post. When I discovered this, I answered whatever you were saying in a separate post. Here is what you said:

>>>>>If you could, you would have done it long ago, but don't feel all alone. NONE of the Evols here NOR the preachers of ancient, traditional, religion, can refute God's Truth NOR can they make it agree with their foolishness.

Whereas your own foolishness meshes right in. The beauty of the Bible is that its poetry leaves plenty of room for interpretation -- and when one has thousands of years of the fruits of science in front of them, it's easy to fit some of it into some of the more poetic passages.

Here is my answer again:

>>>>Dear TLK, False. ONLY by changing God's Literal Truth into myth, allegory and fiction, can one CLAIM the Bible is not true. You are totally misinformed since God's Truth is the Truth in EVERY way. Want to see?<<<

IOW, It is impossible to change God's literal truth into "poetic" passages. When one does this, hang on to your wallet, since he will soon be after it.
Only a Godless heathen would even try to fool a Christian into believing his unbelieving poetic view of God's LITERAL Truth.

By changing God's Truth into fable, the False Prophet can CLAIM that the Bible says ANYthing he wants it to say.

In Love,
Aman

Aman777 · Nov 9, 2013

mzungu said:
Aman777 said:

I think someone should remind you that this is a debate forum and not a place for proselytising. You may be blamed for trolling.

Click to expand...

Dear mzungu, I would be happy to debate any Evol worshipper but all they seem to offer is name calling, implying that I'm nuts and other such ad hominem arguments.

I have posted for more than 17 years for just ONE Evol to show me the evidence that we evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, but NONE have been able to show this. Just accept our silly notions, and ignore God's Truth they cry, as they are running away.

So, either tell us How and When Apes changed into Humans or list just ONE Human city which is older than those listed in Genesis 10 which God shows are the FIRST human cities on this Planet. IOW, Noah was the FIRST human to step foot on this Earth.

Now, it's YOUR time to explain or continue to proselytise the False Religious Beliefs of Evolution to the adults here. You will find it harder to get us to accept the SAME thing which is being FORCED upon our innocent children in the Public Schools of America. Adults are not as easily brain washed.

In Love,
Aman

ThinkForYourself · Nov 10, 2013

Merrily said:
Might Genesis be factual?
Factor out the 'faith factor' for just a moment and consider the question logically.
Why not?
It's as good an explanation of origins as any other out there.
No one alive now was alive 'back then' so nobody knows for sure.
Theories are just stories plus agenda.
Factor back in the 'faith factor' and some know whom they trust.

First, time after time what was attributed to the supernatural has turned out to have a mundane explanation.

Second, if we accept the supernatural, whose explanation is correct? The Australian Aborigines? The Greeks? Christians? Pagans?

Third, running society based on supernatural explanations is not a good way of doing things. Again, whose supernatural explanation do we accept? Some of them are very immoral, including Christianity.

TLK Valentine · Nov 10, 2013

Aman777 said:
Dear mzungu, I would be happy to debate any Evol worshipper but all they seem to offer is name calling, implying that I'm nuts and other such ad hominem arguments.

Perhaps they don't debate you because they don't find you worth the effort?

That's not name calling; that's observation.

ThinkForYourself · Nov 11, 2013

Aman777 said:
...
I have posted for more than 17 years for just ONE Evol to show me the evidence that we evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, but NONE have been able to show this. Just accept our silly notions, and ignore God's Truth they cry, as they are running away.
...

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence, from many different fields, all of it verifying that evolution is a fact. Unfortunately, it requires a lot of effort just to understand the basics. If you aren't willing to put in that effort, you aren't going to understand it. If you are sincerely interested, google proof of evolution, and start reading scientific papers.

If an athiest who had never opened the bible said biblical scholars were incorrect about the bible, what would you think?

Aman777 · Nov 11, 2013

Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear mzungu, I would be happy to debate any Evol worshipper but all they seem to offer is name calling, implying that I'm nuts and other such ad hominem arguments.

Perhaps they don't debate you because they don't find you worth the effort?

That's not name calling; that's observation.

Dear Valentine, I don't accept your view since I have seen Evols chase Young Earthers for years. They never seem to tire of making fun of them, while they run and hide from my views. Is it because they know that Scripture destroys the Lies they are forcing upon our children?

Why don't Evols just tell us How and When we magically evolved from Apes, APART from the birth canal, which is the way ALL other evolution is measured? Why don't Evols show us an older Human city than those built by Noah's great grandsons? Especially since Evols CLAIM we have been fully Human for tens of thousands of years?

The reason why is simple. The False ToE is an unsupportable Lie when measured against the Truth of God. Evols run because it makes them "uncomfortable" to realize that God's Truth refutes the object of their worship. They begin to believe that God's righteous Judgment is as certain as tomorrow. So they run and stick their heads in the sand, because they CANNOT refute God's Holy Word.

That is not name calling, that's my observation of those who THINK they know more than God. Professing themselves to be wise, they bacame fools. Romans 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

In Love,
Aman

Aman777 · Nov 11, 2013

ThinkForYourself said:
ThinkForYourself said:

There is an overwhelming amount of evidence, from many different fields, all of it verifying that evolution is a fact. Unfortunately, it requires a lot of effort just to understand the basics. If you aren't willing to put in that effort, you aren't going to understand it. If you are sincerely interested, google proof of evolution, and start reading scientific papers.

Click to expand...

Dear TFY, Evolution is the measured change in the allele frequencies in a population over time, which is MicroEvolution. ALL of the evidence is for MicroEvolution or Adaptation within His kinds. His kinds are the kinds which Jesus made with His own Hands. There is NO evidence that humans evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, since Humans were made long BEFORE any other living creature. Genesis 2:4-7

The genetic link to the common ancestor of Apes is explained in Genesis 6:4 where God shows that Human blood was contaminated by the FACT that Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry. They married and produced today's "limited life" humans with the prehistoric people who were here when Noah arrived. Humans lost 90% of our lifetimes when this event too place.

If an athiest who had never opened the bible said biblical scholars were incorrect about the bible, what would you think?

Click to expand...

I would agree since that IS the way it is. MOST Biblical Scholars follow the traditional view that men wrote the Bible. This is impossible since NO man of the time could have possibly known the scientific Facts, which we are just now discovering. It's empirical PROOF of God.

In Love,
Aman

ThinkForYourself · Nov 11, 2013

Aman777 said:
Dear TFY, Evolution is the measured change in the allele frequencies in a population over time, which is MicroEvolution. ALL of the evidence is for MicroEvolution or Adaptation within His kinds. His kinds are the kinds which Jesus made with His own Hands. There is NO evidence that humans evolved from the common ancestor of Apes, since Humans were made long BEFORE any other living creature. Genesis 2:4-7

The genetic link to the common ancestor of Apes is explained in Genesis 6:4 where God shows that Human blood was contaminated by the FACT that Noah's grandsons had NO other Humans to marry. They married and produced today's "limited life" humans with the prehistoric people who were here when Noah arrived. Humans lost 90% of our lifetimes when this event too place.

I would agree since that IS the way it is. MOST Biblical Scholars follow the traditional view that men wrote the Bible. This is impossible since NO man of the time could have possibly known the scientific Facts, which we are just now discovering. It's empirical PROOF of God.

In Love,
Aman

Click to expand...

Er, I think what you are doing is called the "God of the Gaps" fallacy. You are saying you don't know it happened, therefore it must have been magic, or in this case god.

As I said, there is a huge amount of evidence to support evolution, in many fields such as geology, biology, chemistry, etc.. Just because you don't understand it is no reason to claim it's not true.

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

That doesn't say anything about man mating with apes.

Also, nothing in the bible is fact or proof of anything, no more than tales of Santa Clause are fact or proof. The bible was written by many men, who knew very little of the world outside of their immediate environs. According to biblical scholars, the old testament was written by six different people, and each of their writings reflect the political environment of the time in which they lived.

Also, do you believe there used to be giants?

TLK Valentine · Nov 11, 2013

Aman777 said:
Dear Valentine, I don't accept your view since I have seen Evols chase Young Earthers for years.

And vice versa, of course.

They never seem to tire of making fun of them, while they run and hide from my views. Is it because they know that Scripture destroys the Lies they are forcing upon our children?

Perhaps it's because your views can only be reconciled with the most whimsical view of scripture? That "multiverse" theory of yours is a particular hoot.

Watching you debate other Christians who think your ideas are way out there -- and watching you claim that they are what scripture was trying to say all along -- is far more entertaining and much less effort.

Why don't Evols just tell us How and When we magically evolved from Apes, APART from the birth canal, which is the way ALL other evolution is measured?

Do you even know what you're talking about here?

Why don't Evols show us an older Human city than those built by Noah's great grandsons? Especially since Evols CLAIM we have been fully Human for tens of thousands of years?

Humans have been living in cities for a shorter period of time.

The reason why is simple. The False ToE is an unsupportable Lie when measured against the Truth of God. Evols run because it makes them "uncomfortable" to realize that God's Truth refutes the object of their worship. They begin to believe that God's righteous Judgment is as certain as tomorrow. So they run and stick their heads in the sand, because they CANNOT refute God's Holy Word.

You keep thinking that -- that your word is "God's holy Word" -- it's adorable.

Really, Aman, "debating" you was fun at first, but now you're more of a spectator sport.

That is not name calling, that's my observation of those who THINK they know more than God.

And who KNOW they know more than you.

Professing themselves to be wise, they bacame fools.

Ah, a nickle for every creationist who thought they were clever for quoting that one...

So can the Genesis be infallible and inerrant history?

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