Small sin, big sin....same

[Bruno]

Today at 02:32 PM Arikay said this in Post #39
They didnt understand what evil ment, so how could they understand that it was a bad choice? 

The main point is that they chose to disobey God's direct order. God knew bad things would happen if they ate from the tree and told them so, yet they put their trust into satan. 

"The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
(Genesis 2:16-17)

This holds true to this day: If you want to be with God, have faith in Him, not satan. You can only follow one. God is Love and Truth, satan is the opposite.

 

[jodrey]

I understand ya, Arikay. Is it just me, or do many people here refuse to see legitimate reasoning because it's too difficult? I don't know, that's just my observation.

You're right: they lacked the knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit. However, God gave them a commandment. They didn't know what was good and what was evil, they just knew that God told them to do something. It's on a different plane altogether. Adam and Eve had no conception of evil before the eating of the fruit: there was only obedience and disobedience. Does that make more sense now?

 

[Arikay]

yes.

But that brings into question, why did god give them such a harsh punishment? After all, shouldnt he be partially responsible for not watching his creation and only trusting them to be obidient.

 

[jodrey]

Well, no. One of the fundamental principles of the gospel is free will. We are given freedom to either choose to obey or to disobey. There are consequences to our actions, though. In other words, we can choose to do whatever we want, but in the end, and even long before that, we will pay, whether for the better or the worse. If God had physically stopped them from eating it's true that they wouldn't have sinned, but they also wouldn't have had a choice. After sinning, they were booted, and I think this is directly related to the verse (I don't remember exactly where it is), "No unclean thing can enter," and that partly brings us back to the original question. In this sense, it doesn't matter what the sin is, you just can't enter. Of course, this begs the question, "If the garden was paradise then what the heck was Satan doing there?" And I'm not too sure of the answer to that. It's all very interesting, and there is a great key to the plan of salvation with the story of the Garden. Most Christians focus on the atonement of Jesus Christ, which is good, but not when that's all they focus on. People seem to forget why the atonement was necessary in the first place, and so they also ignore God's reasoning for it all. Like I said earlier in a different thread, considering Christ and His atonement only is like looking at the engine of a car without studying it and its parts, as well as the rest of the car, to see how it runs. Yes, the atonement is infinitely important, but it's not the only major event related to our salvation and happiness that we need to consider. The story of Adam and Eve is what caused it all, and judging by God's foreknowledge, He knew what Adam and Eve would choose to do. (It would be interesting to discuss the free will question somewhere here as well.) Why would God lead us to death and sin in the first place? I find that most Christians ignore these other principles and questions, and that's just stupid (no offense meant). One thing I can say in "Mormonism"'s defence is that we have very clearly outlined the plan of happiness and can tell others how and why the car runs, while I have seen no evidence of any other Christian doctrine claiming this knowledge... Go figure.

There should be a forum called "Gospel Doctrine" that's explicitly for the discussion of these kinds of topics; of how Christ's atonement is related to Adam and Eve and how the second coming and creation all come into it, and why they do, and how certain things like free will and Satan fit into the puzzle. Anyway, good comments. I'm liking you already, Arikay.

 

[Bruno]

Today at 04:01 PM jodrey said this in Post #42

Is it just me, or do many people here refuse to see legitimate reasoning because it's too difficult?

I know exactly what you mean, jodrey. Oh well, what can you do?

 

[Bruno]

Today at 05:17 PM jodrey said this in Post #44

"If the garden was paradise then what the heck was Satan doing there?"

God put him there. This way humans have a choice between good and evil.

Adam and Eve had everything they needed in the garden of Eden, yet they wanted more. Greed overtook them.

 

[Aaron11]

they obviously had some sort of knowledge... they knew what a tree was... adam knew that animals werent suited for him... so to say they had no knowledge is pretty general and untrue.
they knew that God told them not to eat of the tree. thats all.

 

[jodrey]

God put him there. This way humans have a choice between good and evil.

Maybe, but Satan was obviously unclean, and we know that God visited the garden regularly, to say the least. Every description paints the Garden of Eden as heaven on earth, excepting the ignorant state Adam and Eve were in. Is Satan allowed in heaven? Would the rules of heaven change? All scripture points to the fact that the unclean may not inherit the kingdom of God and to generally stay away from uncleanness. ...?

Adam and Eve had everything they needed in the garden of Eden, yet they wanted more. Greed overtook them.

No, not just. They were also given that other commandment, to multiply and replenish the earth. These were contradictory commandments, as I've stated.

 

[Bruno]

Garden of Eden was NOT heaven, it was simply a place that had everything a human may need and yes, God was there at ALL times. He is EVERYWHERE at ALL times.

I don't understand how you see God contradicting Himself.

 

[bluesonata]

Is Satan allowed in heaven?

Consider Job 1:6 - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the  Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Evidently, Satan has some access to heaven, as do the other angels.  But the day will come when he will be permanently cast out of heaven.  There is a verse in Scripture concerning this but I would need to look it up.  I'm at work right now and am trying to post in between projects.

 

[jodrey]

Yes, I was thinking of that Job scripture also. I think you're right; Satan does have some sort of access to heaven. The scriptures I was thinking of have to do with inheriting the kingdom of heaven.

Garden of Eden was NOT heaven, it was simply a place that had everything a human may need and yes, God was there at ALL times. He is EVERYWHERE at ALL times.

No, I don't think it was heaven literally, but it virtually was. It was perfect; there was no sin; God was there. God is omnipresent, but He's not with us now like He was with Adam and Eve; there's a big difference there. He manifests His presence through the Holy Ghost post-fall, whereas He was there literally in the Garden.

I don't understand how you see God contradicting Himself.

Genesis 1: 28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 2: 16-17
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 2: 25
And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Genesis 3: 7
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

Genesis 4: 1
AND Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

I think it's quite obvious. Adam and Eve, during their time in the Garden, did not bear children. They were innocent and ignorant of "knowing each other". A Book of Mormon verse states this well:

2 Nephi 2: 25
Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.


The two commandments were contrary to each other. Theoretically, Adam and Eve could have resisted the temptation and stayed in a state of perfect innocence, but God, with His foreknowledge, knew what they would choose, however long it took. This foreknowledge, however, was not a determining factor in their choice (in other words, they weren't forced to eat the fruit; it was their choice). Here is partly why the fall was necessary:

2 Nephi 2: 22-23
And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

It's a little complex, but not overly so. This is why most Christians don't put too much thought into the fall. If you take it for face value then it's very difficult to see why God would allow us to be in this state in the first place. Jesus Christ saves us from our sins; that's not confusing at all. But why is that necessary in the first place? Why do we have to suffer and "know misery" if God is really omnipotent? If He loves us then why not just give us what we need so we can all go to heaven? If we are all His children, Him therefore loving us, then why does He allow some to fall from grace?

You should not take the fall for granted. If it didn't happen there would be no need for Christ and we would not be able to know His love. If we did not know sin then we would not know repentance. Some denominations blame Adam and Eve for their transgression, thinking that we would all still be happy and perfect with God; this is without foundation: The world was not meant to be left as the garden of Eden; or maybe I should say it was, but we were not meant to be like Adam and Eve. We would not have been in the garden; we would have been spirits without bodies; we "would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for [we would have known] no misery", but even worse, without agency. The fall was a necessary part of the plan and integral in the gospel of Jesus Christ.